isuzu 4BD1T swap?! (6 Viewers)

[Dougal]

Dougal, didn't Bram have toyota trans dims in CAD of some sort. Maybe you could get the measurements from him for a model w/toyo pattern. Or has Bram already made a model?

I was just pondering that if the isuzu HE motor had an aisin a450 trans which was the same bolt pattern as the aisin a440 trans in toyotas, maybe the HE bellhousing would mount directly to the older BD blocks and widen the adaptability directly to toyota slushbox.

I don't know if I'm making any sense or if I'm even going down a path with potential.

I guess I need to get more powers!!!!

AFAIK, Bram has only just started measuring things up.

It's quite possible the different trans have different bellhousings for different makes. The 4H series bellhousings are different to the 4B series.

 

[68raisin]

answers

I think I answered most of my ?'s by rereading posts 40,45,82.

*The 4HE definitely has different block bolt pattern than 4BD series.

*The 4HE definitely has the aw450.

*The aw450 and a440/442 are similar transmissions, but to what extent?

Now I want to know if the aw450 and a440 share the same case. Possibly the a440 would mount up to the 4HE bellhousing, or the aw450 would mount up to the toy tranfercase after output shaft swap.

I think I've seen these ?'s posed already. Does anyone know if there are any answers yet?

 

[bram]

The answers are all in here guys. Unfortunately, there is no easy way. The only way to mate the 4bd1 or 2 to anything other than the stock manual or auto is with an adapter.

Here is what I have and what I am doing:
1) I have an excellent solid model of the 4bd1 (soon to be updated I hope!) complements of Dougal.
2) I have a 4bd1 bellhousing for the automatic transmission which i am currently measuring
3) I have recently enlisted the help of a mechanical engineer friend of mine to help me with some of the modeling and actually designing the adapter components
4) Unfettered access to a state of the art machine shop until the end of the year.

What I am trying to do:
1) Find the most effective way to adapt the 4bd1 or 2 to the stock fj60 drive train (H42 or H55F).
2) I am also willing to take a look at other trannies (A440), if i can get my hands on the parts.
3) My goal is to make the 4bd1 a drop in swap the way a SBC is currently

What I need:
1) blown up a440, blown up h42 (in my truck right now), 3fe bellhousing, late model 2f bellhousing
2) a garage. anyone in the worcester, ma area got some garage space for rent?

If I can get all the parts in a timely fashion then I should have an adapter designed by the end of the summer. As long as the adapter doesn't end up being too complicated the machining should not be too big of a deal.

Euclid, i pm'd you about the a440 and bellhousing. I want them.

 

[theSherpa]

A450/A440 similarity rumors started with me...the A450 is a development of A440/A442, as documented by something I found Googling. I wondered if bolt patterns on front and rear of A440 and A450 cases might be the same, ASTR measured/photographed/traced his A450 which I compared to my A440, and the bolt patterns are the same. 4HE1 bellhousing will bolt to front of A440 case. A440 transfer case adapter will bolt to back of A450. Input and output shafts (length, spline count, diameter), torque converter (stall, size) and flexplate are all different between 4HE1's A450 and cruiser A440. Who knows how similar they are inside. ASTR is looking at whether it's possible to swap A440 output shaft into A450 to allow a 4HE1/A450 from a '98 up (I think) NPR to bolt into an FJ62 with motor mounts and a shaft swap. No telling if that's possible yet. Stock A440 shift points and torque converter would be a poor match to torque and RPM range of 4HE1 (or 4BD1/2 for that matter) without a rebuild, Aussie valve body and low stall torque converter, IMHO...not to mention that used A440 output shafts are often knackered. Since 4HE1 bellhousing bolt pattern is apparently different (I have no first-hand knowledge), it looks like 4HE1 and 4DB1/2 swaps are headed in two different directions. 4BD1/2's auto is totally different, so that bellhousing won't help us get to a cruiser tranny. What I've described might get a 4HE1/auto in an FJ60/62/FJ80, but doesn't help get a 4HE1 in front of a manual tranny that has a transfer case on the back. Isuzudieselswapper's adapter looks like it'll make a 4BD1/2 look like a GM block. To get a 4HE1 in front of a 4WD manual tranny, you would use a 4HE1 auto or manual bellhousing (think clutch throwout here!) modified or used as basis for an adapter to some tranny, OR you could find an Isuzu NPS (4wd version never sold here) 5 speed OD tranny/transfer IF they're passenger drop.

Does that help?

Steve

I think I answered most of my ?'s by rereading posts 40,45,82.

*The 4HE definitely has different block bolt pattern than 4BD series.

*The 4HE definitely has the aw450.

*The aw450 and a440/442 are similar transmissions, but to what extent?

Now I want to know if the aw450 and a440 share the same case. Possibly the a440 would mount up to the 4HE bellhousing, or the aw450 would mount up to the toy tranfercase after output shaft swap.

I think I've seen these ?'s posed already. Does anyone know if there are any answers yet?

 

[68raisin]

thanks guys!

sherpa: I eventually got back and read your post where my ? started, thanks for updating. I have it all straight now and would still pursue both routes for trannies. I'll hunker down and let astr come up with the goods on a450 output shaft swapability and it looks like bram is getting it done as far as adapters go. I forgot if anyone had an a450 for an example, I might be able to come up with one if need be.

Keep up the great work!

 

[astr]

sherpa: I eventually got back and read your post where my ? started, thanks for updating. I have it all straight now and would still pursue both routes for trannies. I'll hunker down and let astr come up with the goods on a450 output shaft swapability and it looks like bram is getting it done as far as adapters go. I forgot if anyone had an a450 for an example, I might be able to come up with one if need be.

Keep up the great work!

As Sherpa said, I have a A450 that I bought specifically for the purpose of determining the compatibility/interchangeability with the A440. With his help, we were able to determine that the bell housings and T-case adapters are intertchangeable between the two transmissions..

I also now have a donor FJ62 that I plan to pull the A440 with T-case once I get some time. I am hopeful that some combination of A440/A450 parts will allow an Isuszu 4HE! to easily hook up to a LC T-case. This does NOT help those trying to adapt Toy trannys to the 4BD1/2 series.

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

I personally still think adapting to the A440F is not the most intellegent way to hook it up. The 3FE and 2F and variants all have the same bolt pattern. So, an adapter that goes from the 4BD to a Toyota bolt pattern has some value, for the purpose of manual transmissions in my opinion, but the A440F is a huge waste of power, is expensive to replace and repair, and is not that durable, they seem to fail quite often. I remember reading some posts saying as much as 50% of the torque of a 3FE was lost in the transmission. Also, I have driven a FJ62 converted to standard transmission and it was **night and day** over the old auto. Auto = slug, standard, and that 3FE turns into a great little engine. I am a big fan of the 3FE. I feel like all those years of the F and 2F old school engines, they finally got right with the 3FE. Too bad they put a stopper on it with the A440F auto.

Also, I have had some experience with using that trans with other engines. It was a something funky but at a shop I briefly worked at, in a FJ80, they used that trans behind a Chevy 350 with the Marks kit (which is also funky, requires use of a manual flywheel and an auto flexplate, together) the setup never, ever worked right.... I have heard of a FJ80 with a 350 that it works fine in Texas, but I wouldn't recommend it. I am just not a fan of that transmission...

Also, that transmission might be in good shape but while you have the whole drivetrain out, might as well do it right and use the correct transmission because what if it fails 5 or 10K miles after, pull it out, and spend the $$ to replace it to put the same crappy trans in because you didn't take the time / spend the $$ to do it right the first time?

Also, it might not shift correctly with the diesel. It may shift fine, but honestly I couldn't say. When the big fancy non USA diesels are installed into FJ80s (the expensive Specter swaps, etc), they do not use the same A440F transmission, they buy complete drivetrain with a diesel specific A440F and use that. No one is willing to take the risk of using the old A440F.

If it were me, bare minimum I would have a 700R4 diesel specific model built up, but even then I am not a fan (both the 700R4 and the A440F do not have diesel lockups. = loss of mileage, loss of power). I would do a 4L60E or 4L80E ideally and use a standalone computer with shift points custom set to the diesel. Or buy a diesel specific model, but you will need a standalone computer. These are modern, more efficient autos versus the old issues, and will not provide the noticeable mileage losses.

Hope it helps and my $.02 on it....
Andre

 

[euclid]

I realize I may be in the minority, but I really like the A440F.

Mine is an Aussie rebuild with custom valve body, and that makes a big difference but I liked it before. They fail early because the radiator cooler doesn't do a good enough job keeping it cool. An extra cooler and it's bombproof long term, IMHO.

On shift points, the Aussie valve body can be customized pretty easily to affect shift points.

All that being said, if I didn't have a rebuilt A440 already I'd probably agree with you.

 

[bram]

Hey Andre,

I was just looking back at those measurements you took. 31" top to bottom right? That agrees with the mechanical drawings you have stored in the yahoo group.

So, what is the height of the isuzu 4bdx? I saw the pic of the 2f and 4db1 next to each other. The 4bd actually looks smaller. I am just trying to prove to myself that the 4bd will fit in a 60 with little or no lift.

 

[astr]

I personally still think adapting to the A440F is not the most intellegent way to hook it up. .....

I would agree. I am hoping to use pieces (primarily the output shaft) from the A440 in the A450 to mate it to the LC T-case. The A450 is matched to the diesel engine (4HE1) and is also being sold behind the current 4HK1 engine. In addition, the A450 is used by at least Hino, Mitsubishi, and Nissan behind their 4-cyl truck diesels. So, if the mating problem with the LC T-case can be solved using A440 parts, then it open up all kinds of possibilities for fitting other diesels into Land Cruisers.

 

[bram]

true. but how many people really want to use autos anyway? I mean, if thats your bag then great but people seem to want manuals more often than not.

 

[euclid]

true. but how many people really want to use autos anyway? I mean, if thats your bag then great but people seem to want manuals more often than not.

It really boils down to a matter of preference.

 

[RHINO]

the 4BD is about the same height as the 2F, but you dont have that big air cleaner on top. dropping in a cruiser with no lift will have to be smart, but is totally doable. one of the problems is the starter, it sticks out pretty far and i had to move the engine to the passenger side off center, which is opposite the 2F favoring the driver side, so things like differential, tranny tunnel and other mods will need to be considered when keeping the rig stock height. i have the bottom of the 4BD engine at the same height as the 2F and have at least 4" clearance to the hood. i could have lifted it but then i would have gotten into the tranny hump. when positioning the engine i was trying to keep the lowest center of gravity and the flattest posible belly, it turned out good.

 

[Dougal]

4BD1T is approx 740mm from bottom of sump to top of rocker cover.
Air pipes add to this but they can be moved.

Mine measures 730mm, but I've removed the thick rubber gasket between sump and block to get more axle/sump clearance.

 

[bram]

so its only ~2in shorter than a 4bt?

 

[88tlc]

a440f auto transmission behind a diesel!

I realize I may be in the minority, but I really like the A440F.

Mine is an Aussie rebuild with custom valve body, and that makes a big difference but I liked it before. They fail early because the radiator cooler doesn't do a good enough job keeping it cool. An extra cooler and it's bombproof long term, IMHO.

On shift points, the Aussie valve body can be customized pretty easily to affect shift points.

All that being said, if I didn't have a rebuilt A440 already I'd probably agree with you.

I also like the a440f auto transmission, mainly because its already in my fj62. Are there better transmissions? I am sure there is, but all with a cost, complexity of ripping what is in there out, and adding parts from all over the place.

my A440F has 260,000 miles on it. Still Original. That is pretty hard to say about any transmission, but especially an automatic.

The austrailian rebuilds sound as good as the 700r4 mods, torque converter and valve body made to handle the torque. The can also be done in the states, there just aren't as many to be done in the US.

It has a lock up for over drive, so good power transmission when at cruise, definitely not 50% losses. Good overdrive ratio .71:1.

And I don't need to mess around with ripping my truck completely apart, put a different transmission, adapter plates, and transfer case adapter, and clutch masters, new pedals, and lord knows what else. cause all that stuff means another $3000, and a year or two.

I think it also becomes a preference of how you want to drive the TLC when your done. For me, its mostly on roads, road trips, and adventures, in the mountains to ski areas, maybe some dualtrack roads, but rarely would I see a need to be on some hair ball trail or slickrock.

So the main reason for the diesel converion for me is economy (in the conversion, and in the fuel efficiency), not necessarily infinite performance.

To get 25 to 30 mpg, and have more power than I have now to get up the mountain passes faster than 50, and a nice little rumble of the diesel, I will be stoked.

 

[68raisin]

manual w/adapter vs. auto w/output shaft swap

I love manual transmissions but automatics are great too. It is about preference.

The isuzu diesel swap is so close for the average enthusiast that I'm totally stoked. I would swap in a 5sp but my 80 has the auto already and my wife would use it most so auto is where I'm headed.

With the surfacing of possible compatibility of the a440 and a450 there are lots of doors opening for the 80 series crowd. As far as shift points, durability, etc. go, I would use the a450 to solve all of the driveability issues. I would venture to guess that the similarities in the a440 and a450 are in our favor knowing that they do have the same bolt patterns. The internals would be different of course because of the application but that may also prove to be a plus.

I hope for and envision my 4HE w/a450, swapping output shafts, bolting on my t-case then fabing up the motor mounts.

There would be other stuff to do but this does seem like it would be a popular enough swap given that there are no adaptors. The only hurdle I see is tearing down the transmission, but if you're swapping motors that should'nt be to bad.

If someone figured out the optimum motormount position and offered mounts, possibly a tranny exchange etc... there could be a kit for this combo.

I think thats enough rambling........

 

[theSherpa]

keep in mind that what keeps automatics alive is line pressure...shifts gears, engages clutches, who knows what else. line pressure is rpm dependent, and a gas auto turning at diesel rpm doesn't make the same line pressure, which is a big reason gas autos don't live behind diesels in swaps. automakers could run more line pressure than they do stock for reliability, but that makes trannies shift harder,which the public has been trained to avoid. I think the A440's issues in FJ62 are likely the result of lower than ideal line pressure from the factory. that has to be compensated for if you put a high power at low rpm motor like a 4HE1 ahead of an A440, such as with the Aussie valve body...make sure they know you're putting a grunt motor in when you talk to them. Orange45 could talk much more intelligently than I about this, as he lived and breathed autos for years, but there are a lot of slippery A440's out there that would probably get murdered by putting a 4HE1 ahead of them with no other mods...not to mention the high-stall torque converter. imagine driving a diesel, and only engaging the clutch from a standstill at 2200 rpm...that's what a high-stall TC is like. I drove an '89 Dodge Cummins with the 727 (I think) three-speed and basically a gas motor TC, and it was like giving all the low-end torque of that motor away...

Now, I'm no expert, so flame away, but IMHO to put a 4HE1 in front of a high-miles A440 will result in tears down the road.

Don't let the fact that I hate slushboxes affect your reading of this in any way I like the idea of a 4HK1 ahead of an NV5600 or other 6-speed, but that's dreaming

I must say that when you hear a late-model NPR with an auto run down the road, you can tell the auto is set up right...and it's one slushbox I could see having.

Steve

 

[euclid]

I agree with you about a high mileage A440 taking a dump pretty quick behind the diesel.

This is all internet rumor, but the A440 was evidently used in a small people mover bus produced by Toyota for Japan. Rumor is that it was used for years with great success. They had some on the shelf, and decided to give the US an auto 60: the 62. The tranny worked great in high torque, low RPM situations like the bus. The trouble with so many of them dying is that the heat of 65 MPH/2700 rpm for thousands of miles kills them.

On a side note, 7 years ago when I first got my 62 you the A440 didn't have a bad rep. The trucks are all hitting 225K and the transmissions are dying left and right. 225K under a 5K lb rig is respectable performance IMO.

I think its a given that if the a440 is used it needs to be at least a fresh rebuild, and even better if the valve body is tuned with the engine in mind, and even better if the torque converter is set up to take the higher pressures created by the extra torque.

Keep in mind that I love my slushbox, especially off road. JMHO

BTW I'm web-buddies with Rodney at wholesale automatics in OZ. I sent him a link to this thread and asked for his wisdom on the swap, if he's seen it in OZ, how the A440 could be set up ect. I'll forward any info I get.

 

[theSherpa]

very cool, Euclid...I knew my experience or lack of it with A440's wouldn't be the whole picture. I think Rodney's valve body would be important...dunno if he does/can raise line pressure. given a fresh tranny, I think the biggest hurdle would be the torque converter...they behave how they're built/designed, never heard of anyone modifying one, just replacing them with another that has differently sized/whatever innards.

thanks for reminding me/us that it's not a junk tranny at all!!

Steve
nothing works like a slushbox in the rocks, for sure...I just don't like trannies that shift when they want, not when I want. I'd want a full-manual shift valve body if I ever had one.