I thought you had a line on isuzu graded liners for $120?
Builds Isuzu 4BD1T Lexus LX450 (Land Cruiser) Build
- Thread starter Wheelingnoob
- Start date
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.
- Thread starter
- #1,522
Rings are $80 per hole as well.
Then I'm still left with non graded pistons in graded liners......
IMO worth every penny. I found a massive friction and fuel economy difference between aftermarket and genuine rings. Graded liners are I believe ~90% of the tolerance. The pistons difference will be minor. Aftermarket ungraded parts have to be loose enough to fit the largest pistons and the tightest bores.
I put aftermarket liners in my engine twice. I'm never doing it again. Just tossing up between the full matched kits vs liners and rings.
- Thread starter
- #1,524
Hmm what kind of fuel economy difference have you noticed?
I'm going to wait to order till I get mine removed.
~10%. The aftermarket rings were tight in the bore, the genuine slid like they were on teflon. Far less ring tension. I went from averaging about 12 litres/100km to about 11.
- Thread starter
- #1,526
Intresting.
I'll tear everything down and decide from there I guess.
As much as improved efficiency and reduced drag are appealing I just want this truck to run and operate reliably.
Reliability is exactly the reason I use genuine parts. I've come to regret pretty much every aftermarket part I've put in my isuzu.
These engines in nz were doing half a million km between overhauls in trucks weighing up to 8 ton.
In Landrovers in Australia they have done more than a million km without being opened.
These engines in nz were doing half a million km between overhauls in trucks weighing up to 8 ton.
In Landrovers in Australia they have done more than a million km without being opened.
- Thread starter
- #1,528
So I got the rods and pistons removed. I was able to press the sleeves a bit more. They are all with in spec for sleeve protrusion now between .10mm and .04mm none are at the limit either way.
So now the question.
1)Call it good and toss it back together as is.
2)Call it good toss it back together with new OEM rings.
3)Continue and pull sleeves, replace with OEM graded sleeves and OEM rings.
On a good note everything looks like new inside still. No issues with big end bearings or sleeve finish, still lots of cross hatch. The rings on the pistons now look like they have just started seating in but still have a long way to go.
My budget is very tight having a wife on paternity leave but my time is far more scarce. I need to get this sorted ASAP.
So now the question.
1)Call it good and toss it back together as is.
2)Call it good toss it back together with new OEM rings.
3)Continue and pull sleeves, replace with OEM graded sleeves and OEM rings.
On a good note everything looks like new inside still. No issues with big end bearings or sleeve finish, still lots of cross hatch. The rings on the pistons now look like they have just started seating in but still have a long way to go.
My budget is very tight having a wife on paternity leave but my time is far more scarce. I need to get this sorted ASAP.
Sounds to me like you've answered your own question.
You could have this running in about 4 hours. Chop chop!
- Thread starter
- #1,530
But is it worth putting new OEM rings in it? After all I'm sure that is where the majority of the improvement would be in economy. I'm OK if I need to wait for the part to get in its just the actual time wrenching that is limited.
My two questions would be:
1. How is the ring tension? Do they slide easily up and down the bore or are they tight? Isuzu rings slide easily. My aftermarket rings were tight enough to cause high temps during run-in, low fuel economy and shorter wear life.
2. What's the material? My Isuzu rings appeared to be cast iron for the two lower rings (incl oil scraper) and top was chrome plated upper/lower surfaces. My aftermarket rings appeared to be completely chrome and ate cylinder liners. It's important to avoid similar materials rubbing as they suffer adhesive wear.
Third question which isn't so important. What's the ring end-gap? My last rebuild ended up just outside the large side of the isuzu tolerance. I put this down to ungraded liners being larger and sloppier fit than intended. The big problem with ring gap is when it's not enough and ring ends meet under high temp conditions.
All my Isuzu OEM pistons, liners and rings are at the machine shop, or I would shoot you a picture of them to see how the aftermarket compare in materials.
I'm with Dougal, if the liners now measure in spec, check ring gap and material. If problems are observed, a new issue...I wonder how or if rings and lands differ on OEM and aftermarket pistons? Maybe the same?
If you wait, on Friday I will go the machine shop and shoot some OEM rings, pistons and liners for comparison. But mine are 4BD2 parts.
I'm with Dougal, if the liners now measure in spec, check ring gap and material. If problems are observed, a new issue...I wonder how or if rings and lands differ on OEM and aftermarket pistons? Maybe the same?
If you wait, on Friday I will go the machine shop and shoot some OEM rings, pistons and liners for comparison. But mine are 4BD2 parts.
Listening to Doug al sounds like that could be a problem before and later. What kind of rep do the rings you have now have? Are they the same ones that Dougal pulled on his. I'd spring for the factory stuff and close her up. You can cheat the bills on the external stuff. I'm thinking you won't be going in again come hell or high water.
- Thread starter
- #1,534
Sleeves, the picture makes them look a lot worse than they are. Virtually no wear at all. I will clean them well before doing anything else.
Ring's on pistons, no issues here. You can see on the compression ring where they have started to seat in.
Chrome hardened face of the compression ring both sides.
Ring side (part that seats in) is not chrome hardened. Bad pic sorry.
Ring in sleeve for measuring end gap. Ring seems to move fairly easily, deffinantly not what I would call hard to move. Slides nice and smooth once past the top area of soot is passed.
Ring gap is .33mm so right in the middle of spec. Spec is .25 to .44mm.
I am holding my conviction that these Clevite cyclender kits are OEM quality although not a graded fit.
Ring's on pistons, no issues here. You can see on the compression ring where they have started to seat in.
Chrome hardened face of the compression ring both sides.
Ring side (part that seats in) is not chrome hardened. Bad pic sorry.
Ring in sleeve for measuring end gap. Ring seems to move fairly easily, deffinantly not what I would call hard to move. Slides nice and smooth once past the top area of soot is passed.
Ring gap is .33mm so right in the middle of spec. Spec is .25 to .44mm.
I am holding my conviction that these Clevite cyclender kits are OEM quality although not a graded fit.
- Thread starter
- #1,535
That would be great, I will not have a chance to work on it again till Friday anyways. Thanks a lot!
Sleeves and rings will be the same 2t or not.
- Thread starter
- #1,536
Agreed he has sound advice based on his experience with his 4bd1t.
My worry is that as with anything aftermarket there are different quality levels. I would definitely say the kits I have installed are high quality. Clevite and Mahal are well respected in the engine parts industry. I have used there parts in the past with no issues. Most of the hot build Cummins run Clevite pistons and rings.
My cylinder kits are all made in the UK with made in UK parts (stamped). So it's not cheap off shore knock offs.
My engine when purchased had cheap cylinder kits and the quality/lack of showed. The combustion bowls in the pistons where not designed very well the sleeves where also not very good quality. So I know how bad some aftermarket parts can look.
- Thread starter
- #1,538
The numbers agree with the book, but you should only have .001" (.0254 mm) variation between adjacent cylinders. The main purpose of cylinder liner or sleeve protrusion is to give you the proper amount of “crush” on your cylinder head gasket. This ensures that once torqued, your cylinder head crushes the gasket evenly and to the correct specification. It is important to measure the liner protrusion in multiple locations around each cylinder.
It also helps to know not only the spec for protrusion, but also the variation allowed. For example, the specification for liner protrusion is .0015-.0039″ (.0387mm-.1 mm). The allowable variation is .001″ (.025mm). This means if you measure one cylinder in 5 or 6 places around the cylinder and you are within .001 of each measurement AND your measurement falls within the .001-.005″ (.025-.127 MM) range then you are within spec needed. You want these measurements to remain consistent concentrically around each hole, but also from cylinder to cylinder. If you are not consistent from cylinder to cylinder, your head gasket might be crushing or sealing properly on one side of the engine and not sealing on the other.
Engines using a dry liner can be a little trickier than their wet sleeve cousins. It is recommended to use a depth micrometer first to measure the depth of the counterbore (distance from the deck surface to the flange seating surface in the block). Write this measurement down and now measure the thickness of your liner flange. Subtract the two numbers. This will give you what your protrusion “will be” permitting the liner sits true in the block. The reason for doing these measurements prior to installing the liner is because in dry liner applications you have to use a sleeve installer or liner press to install them. Once installed, it is difficult to remove them without damage. After they are installed it is good practice to measure the protrusion again. Making sure that they are within spec and consistent cylinder to cylinder. Remember over enthusiastic mechanical or abrasive cleaning of the counterbore can ruin a good block.
If I saw 4 thou above on #1 hole and 1.5 thou above on #2 hole, followed by say 3 on #3 & say 3 on #4, it would ring alarm bells. But protrusion of 4, 3, 3 & 2.5 thou for example while not ideal would be fine. I usually aim for 2.5 to 3.5 thou above, anything less will not be as durable if higher output is desired. Abnormal combustion, overheating, timing issues and higher output will bring out head gasket sealing issues very quickly. This is one area of a diesel that unfortunately can't take too many shortcuts, although its common and often required to place shims under the sleeves on some engines to attain the correct protrusion, but I don't know if they are available in sizes to suit the ISUZU.
I'm sure you already know most of this, just thought the info could be useful for someone.
BTW I did the 4bd1t with td04hl 19t-6 making 29psi @2600 into my fj80 with t700 auto( was already in there) a couple of months ago and have just come back from 15,000 km trip
Averaged 15.3 l/100km towing 1500 kg camper trailer, geared to 2250 @ 100kmh, worst fuel economy was 18.5l/100km towing. Haven't checked fuel usage without trailer yet as the engine had only done 4km when we left. Got boost & pyro and other info too if your interested.
