- Thread starter
- #61
Well shoot.
Does that mean I can sue LT if my engine blows up from his MAF mod?
(Sorry LT, don't mean to pick on ya.
)
Interest: Bolt on X-Link (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Ebag333
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Well shoot.
Does that mean I can sue LT if my engine blows up from his MAF mod?
(Sorry LT, don't mean to pick on ya.
)Well shoot.
Does that mean I can sue LT if my engine blows up from his MAF mod?
(Sorry LT, don't mean to pick on ya.
Yes you can. But you'll lose.
- Thread starter
- #63
Why? Assuming I could prove that his MAF damaged the engine, what's the difference? In his case, he doesn't even have a liability waiver (at least as far as I know). You could certainly bring up his debates with Slee to show that he knew that there was a possibility for engine damage, yet sold them anyway.
(Again, not picking on you LT, you're just a handy example.)
Because you knew that it could possibly damage your engine when you modified it. And then you'd have to hire an expert to prove that his part, and not something else, damaged the engine, or you'd lose on summary judgment. Assuming that you did that, and proved that you did not assume the risk of damage to your engine, you could pay about 60k to get back the damage caused to your engine, probably around 2k.
Great investment.
- Thread starter
- #65
Why doesn't the same logic apply here?
Same thing would apply to the X-Link.
Again, x2.
Apples and oranges.
It's not about the return on investment for the person doing the suing, but the one who is (may be) getting sued.
You guys have already convinced me that I can't do this with product insurance. No one's going to pay $2,000 a pop for these.
A waiver may bring about some limited liability but won't fully cover me.
Guess I should just fab one up for myself and leave it at that. I'll just wait for someone else to step up and do something unique. I'm sure that someone else is just waiting to jump in and fill this niche.
If you don't understand the difference between putting a component on a vehicle that could damage its engine and putting a component on a vehicle that could seriously reduce its ability to safely roll down the road, then I don't know what to say to help you out. Also, I thought I already explained satisfactorily to you that, even if you limited your liability with respect to the purchaser of the x-link, that there's nothing you can do to limit your liability with respect to someone else injured by its failing.
When I get to the point that I will be lifting my 80 , If someone was to have a system that i deemed worthy for my rig then i would buy said system from whoever via money order and be recieving said system from an unidentified shipper. Things dont have to be so difficult. If the prototype is working and is safe to drive im in. I have seen people selling four link systems that they say " not recomended for on road use " and they sell them all day long. People drive them how they want to as the end user. I think when you install something on your own rig with your own hands it is your own liability. If you have someone else install it then that might be a differant story.
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- Thread starter
- #68
I understand the difference just fine.
While it's highly unlikely that LT's MAF Mod could cause a critical failure resulting in injury or death, the same cannot be said of many other popular mods.
What do you think would happen if your slider fell off at 65 MPH? Even assuming you could safely drive over it (which is unlikely, given that you'd be complete unprepared), there's no saying what sort of damage it could do to the idiot tailgating you.
How about if your ARB fell off? Or worse yet a rear bumper with double swingouts (and tire carrier).
Do you think those scenarios might "serious reduce it's ability to safely roll down the road"?
Plenty of people do those sort of mods without product liability insurance or waivers.
My question still stands. Why doesn't the same logic apply, especially if that logic is brought to the front before the product is actually purchased?
sleeoffroad
Supporting Vendor
ARB has product liabilit insurance to cover this case. Yes it is to cover their ass, but it is there.
Plenty of people do those sort of mods without product liability insurance or waivers.
Very few people ask that question from the supplier ahead of sales. But I bet you if any of these cases happen and it kills someones family, the lawyers are coming and circling. Waiver or not.
What of the case if the product was installed on a truck and the original buyer sells the truck. New owner had no contact with supplier. You as manufacturer is still liable.
In answer to your other question, we have never had to use our insurance and for that I am very grateful, however every year when I write that check to pay for it I am pissed off for a week. I am sorry that I brought this up and I would not have done so, except that you expressed interest to sell and distribute these. These days if you talk to insurance people and you mention that you do suspension parts (or brakes for that matter) they treat you like you have the plague.
Waggoner5
SILVER Star
Don't worry about liability at this point. Build what you want, make sure it works well, then worry about marketing it. When its all done and proven, post up with pictures.
Re-engineering the front of an 80 to get better flex has been done several times before and most of these guys would not do it again. It did not allow the truck to go any farther up/down the trail than the stock design, and body lean and drivability were sacrificed as well. The 80s are just too large and top heavy to make them like a slinky. By the time you address the body lean with shock valving, spring rate, and sway bars, you will see what I mean.
Re-engineering the front of an 80 to get better flex has been done several times before and most of these guys would not do it again. It did not allow the truck to go any farther up/down the trail than the stock design, and body lean and drivability were sacrificed as well. The 80s are just too large and top heavy to make them like a slinky. By the time you address the body lean with shock valving, spring rate, and sway bars, you will see what I mean.
first I really don't think I admitted that my MAF housing caused engine damage. I honestly don't think it does and continue to run one myself which is longer than anyone else has had it on their truck.
I would be more concerned about an all out failure do to improper design or manufacturing.
Not to pick on Slee, but the first gen 1 front arms that were sold through his web site had several failures at the welds.
A failure with these arms could result is serious injury or worse.
These failures indicate a lack in either proper design or manufacturing. When buying such an item those two areas are assumed to have been done correctly by the manufacturer. It's that kind of failure that you need to be sure won't happen.
And for the record, my understanding is that those arms were not Slee's design or did he make them. He only sold them or hosted them on his site.
I would be more concerned about an all out failure do to improper design or manufacturing.
Not to pick on Slee, but the first gen 1 front arms that were sold through his web site had several failures at the welds.
A failure with these arms could result is serious injury or worse.
These failures indicate a lack in either proper design or manufacturing. When buying such an item those two areas are assumed to have been done correctly by the manufacturer. It's that kind of failure that you need to be sure won't happen.
And for the record, my understanding is that those arms were not Slee's design or did he make them. He only sold them or hosted them on his site.
exactly!
- Thread starter
- #73
Not looking to make it a slinky. Just not like a board.
Worst case scenario, if the X-Link was too flexible (yeah, that'd be a cryin' shame) you could easily add a limiting strap to it. (Which really isn't a horrible idea anyway, to prevent the springs from unloading too much.)
sleeoffroad
Supporting Vendor
Unfortunately very few companies in this small game we play has the money to do exhaustive testing. So yes, defects show up. That difference is that we do have insurance in place. We try to design and manufacture everything to the best of our ability and also hold our suppliers to the same standards, however long term defect can show up.
That is true, we were not the manufacturer at that point, but they were still sold under our name. The design was changed over time and eventually discontinued in favor of a billet arm.
But like Gary said, Ebag should make one and get it going, see what the pros and cons are about it, and if happy, then solicit input on the possibility of selling it. However prices were quoted early on and all I wanted was to share some knowledge I have on that side. He asked, I gave my 0.02c.
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- Thread starter
- #75
I never intended to imply that you believed your MAF housing causes engine damage. Personally, I don't think it does (though I do have enough reservations in regards to some of the points that folks have brought up to pass on buying one for myself).
My only point was that "other experts" in the field had pointed out the possibility, which could (potentially) be a liability issue. Not likely, of course, and I highly doubt anyone's gonna sue you over it.
At least I sincerely hope not. If a MUD member sue's a MUD vendor, I think I'll die a little inside.
And I do appreciate it.
(Though you still haven't answered my question on how many times you've actually used your product insurance.
)
- Thread starter
- #77
Kudos to you Ebag, I like your attitude! So true and it's such a shame our world is like it is. Both sides have individuals with no conscience, buyers and manuf./sellers. And it's these bad apples that exploit the extremes and make their victims and the rest of us miserable. From the old lady that sued McDonalds over a cup of spilled hot coffee on one side and Ford Pinto gas tanks and tobacco companies purposely making cigarettes addictive on the other. And I'm sure anybody could come up with additional examples on either side.
Ebag, make your X-Link like you want. Don't let the A-holes of this world take away your creativeness! Show us your results and we can either be jealous or copy it, if we dare. I dare some jack-ass to sue you after stealing your idea!
I say build it and see how it works, what do you have to lose.
If it works well than you will be happy.
Plus I would buy one from you regardless of what the others say.
There are risks with everything, if my mountainbike frame broke when I was flying down hill and screwed myself up I am not going to sue the bike company it is all part of the risks.
If it is built right and you personally use it on your own rig I would fully trust it.
Just my .02
If it works well than you will be happy.
Plus I would buy one from you regardless of what the others say.
There are risks with everything, if my mountainbike frame broke when I was flying down hill and screwed myself up I am not going to sue the bike company it is all part of the risks.
If it is built right and you personally use it on your own rig I would fully trust it.
Just my .02
I understand the difference just fine.
While it's highly unlikely that LT's MAF Mod could cause a critical failure resulting in injury or death, the same cannot be said of many other popular mods.
What do you think would happen if your slider fell off at 65 MPH? Even assuming you could safely drive over it (which is unlikely, given that you'd be complete unprepared), there's no saying what sort of damage it could do to the idiot tailgating you.
How about if your ARB fell off? Or worse yet a rear bumper with double swingouts (and tire carrier).
Do you think those scenarios might "serious reduce it's ability to safely roll down the road"?
Plenty of people do those sort of mods without product liability insurance or waivers.
My question still stands. Why doesn't the same logic apply, especially if that logic is brought to the front before the product is actually purchased?
What's more likely to happen: a non weight-bearing, non-stress bearing bumper or slider "falling off" or a suspension component with limited testing done to it failing?
