Interest: Bolt on X-Link

[Ebag333]

Part of the forces on U bolts would come from rotational force through the pivot pin when braking. As the x-link removes the fixed attachment at the front bush on both radius arms, when braking, the diff housing is going to want to rotate, bolt on installation would rely on Ubolts to stop this rotational force twisting the Ubolts

That's exactly what the bracing above/below the axle would be for. The bracing would take most of the force, and relatively little would need to be taken up by the U-bolts.

As I said before, the U-bolts would mostly be for keeping the pivot point from slipping forward off the axle housing.

 

[ridgerunner]

I ramped my truck to measure how much compression I could get in my shocks. I was able to fully compress the rear....but the front laughed at my attempts to compress it.

And while that does add a bit more suppleness to the front, and allow it to flex a bit more, the body still wants to follow the front axle and make the rear do all the work.

Turn the truck around and see if you can compress the front end. I would doubt the rear end would fully compress if the rear was up on the ramp instead. When you drive up a ramp like that, the weight is going to be pushed to one side.

Now this isn't exactly an apples-to-apples comparison, as he's running about a 6-7" lift and also has his radius arms flipped, but the big thing to look at is how flat his body is. (That and 38" tires dropping below the door sills front and rear. )

He's also balanced on that rock. Unless you have a suspension that's really soft, your front end isn't going to flex as much on a ramp as it would in the same situation. Lka1988's truck in his photo is fairly well balanced so the front is flexing.

 

[Ebag333]

So I picked up--if not everything, than mostly everything--to do the X-Link arm (not the pivot point that bolts to the axle yet).

I was actually pleasantly surprised at how inexpensive it's been so far. (Which means when I charge ya'll $999.99 I'll make a fortune! )


For the center pivot point I'm using a heavy duty motor mount. I choose this primarily because it was the closest thing to what I needed that the local 4x4 (primarily older Bronco's) shop had in stock. That and it was $15.

Anyway, it should work just fine. It will allow a small amount of flex forward and back, and should pivot cleanly. I don't think I'll need much flex in it as any flex needed should be eaten up by the front mounting points on the radius arms.

Now I've just got to fab up some brackets, weld it all together, and then fab up the pivot point.

I will post up pics when I have the X-Link arm fabbed up.

 

[CreeperSleeper]

You are going to use Ford parts?!? I'm no longer interested...

 

[Ebag333]

You are going to use Ford parts?!? I'm no longer interested...

Eh, it's a generic motor mount. It doesn't have Ford or anything else stamped on it, so I think I'm okay.

 

[sleeoffroad]

$600 AUD is currently $513.60 USD, and that doesn't include the shipping over (which is quite expensive if you don't want to wait a few months).

My aim is to undercut that quite a bit. Can I actually do it? Maybe, maybe not.

FWIW, I would speak to a product liability insurance agent first and see where you end up with your pricing.

 

[Ebag333]

FWIW, I would speak to a product liability insurance agent first and see where you end up with your pricing.

Yeah. Then I really will be charging a ridiculous amount of money.

I think I like the waiver route better.

 

[firetruck41]

Yeah. Then I really will be charging a ridiculous amount of money.

I think I like the waiver route better.

I'm pretty sure you can still get sued...

 

[lowenbrau]

Yeah. Then I really will be charging a ridiculous amount of money.

I think I like the waiver route better.

There is no waiver route. Christos knows of what he speaks. I used to hate writing those insurance cheques.

I've said it before that the insurance industry will be the first against the wall when the revolutions comes. The lawyers that feed them can kneel in front.

 

[retrofive]

Waiver?

 

[Ebag333]

I'm pretty sure you can still get sued...

No matter what I do I can get sued.

There is no waiver route.

Um, no, not true.

In my (admittedly simple) research, a waiver will protect you if properly drafted. A correctly done waiver would result in a summary judgement and the case would be dismissed...now the problem, of course, is that even a summary judgement is very expensive, unless you go pro se (which still isn't exactly cheap), and of course most judges tend to be biased against folks who defend themselves.

 

[80t0ylc]

I've been lurking on this thread for a while and have a basic question that hasn't been addressed - maybe it's assumed - but it hasn't been mentioned. How about the front anti-sway bar has it been disco'd when doing flex measurements with the ramp? Looks like Lanes (Lka1988) is still attached in his 2nd photo, but it's hard to see. Seems like you'd increase the flex dramatically in the front end with it disco'd. Sorry if this has already been assumed, I just didn't see it.

 

[Lka1988]

Looks like Lanes (Lka1988) is still attached in his 2nd photo, but it's hard to see. Seems like you'd increase the flex dramatically in the front end with it disco'd. Sorry if this has already been assumed, I just didn't see it.

It's connected. I've heard from multiple people that it doesn't really do much to remove it.

I actually removed one of the control arm bolts in those pics. A little nod to whoever came up with it.

 

[Lka1988]

Now I'm gonna play devil's advocate to myself... Same day, same area as my first pics, but a *slightly* different line.

Even with the hitch pin removed, notice how the front end still doesn't want to flex a whole lot. The tire is about 2 feet off the ground.

FYI, I nearly rolled it shortly before the pic was taken. There were buggies there that did this same line without lifting a tire. A blame a lack of flex

 

[Ebag333]

I've been lurking on this thread for a while and have a basic question that hasn't been addressed - maybe it's assumed - but it hasn't been mentioned. How about the front anti-sway bar has it been disco'd when doing flex measurements with the ramp? Looks like Lanes (Lka1988) is still attached in his 2nd photo, but it's hard to see. Seems like you'd increase the flex dramatically in the front end with it disco'd. Sorry if this has already been assumed, I just didn't see it.

It's connected. I've heard from multiple people that it doesn't really do much to remove it.

I actually removed one of the control arm bolts in those pics. A little nod to whoever came up with it.

As Lka mentioned, removing it really doesn't do that all that much. It makes it easier to flex, but it doesn't give you more flex.

That's a big part of the reason as to why the X-Link appeals to me. Mods such as a Y-link or 3-Link will seriously negatively impact on road driving and handling. I want the to feel as comfortable driving my truck as she does hers, and with a lot of the options out there that's not really feasible.

I also thought about doing a wristed arm, which is popular with a lot of the domestic folks (saw some on Bronco's at the 4x4 shop today). That would require either seriously modifying the stock arm, or building a new arm, neither of which appealed to me due to cost and the amount of effort it would take.

For me, on road handling is pretty much my number one priority. That's why I like an X-Link, when you pin the arm in place it should handle just like it does stock. You unpin it, and you get (nearly) the flexibility of a 3-Link or Y-Link.

Now I'm gonna play devil's advocate to myself... Same day, same area as my first pics, but a *slightly* different line.

Even with the hitch pin removed, notice how the front end doesn't want to flex a whole lot. The tire is about 2 feet off the ground.

FYI, I nearly rolled it shortly before the pic was taken. A blame a lack of flex

Now that one is just downright scary.

I actually never even thought about a case where the body would follow the rear axle....not because it wants to follow the rear axle but because the front axle can't flex enough.

Longer shocks would have also helped there, probably more than an X-Link would have, thought I still think the X-Link would have helped by letting the axle flex and tuck better. It's hard to see in the pic, but the radius arms look awfully bound up.

 

[80t0ylc]

As Lka mentioned, removing it really doesn't do that all that much. It makes it easier to flex, but it doesn't give you more flex..

Whoa, there - turbo! It seems to me, like "easier" flex is better flex or "more" flex. At least what is allowed by the limitations of the front LCA mounts.

.....but it doesn't give you more flex..

But, what I think you mean here is wheel travel and that's true. The purpose of the anti-sway bars is to reduce body sway or roll in turns. It accomplishes this by resisting body & frame movement in turns caused by centrifugal force. In a turn the outside wheel is driven up and the inside wheel tends to go down because of the body movement from centrifugal force. It offers no resistance when both wheels on the same axle move in the same direction. The sway bar actually resists the same movement that we need for articulation in off road driving. The effects may not be very noticeable when the sway bar is disco'd, but the logic is perfectly sound. So the front LCA mounts may be the biggest limitation for flex.

Now, I know that even if the flex is working well, the stock wheel travel is still not acceptable for the wheeling that some of us want to do. But, I think that for owners like myself, who can live with the stock setup, temporarily disco-ing the sway bar and possibly doing the hitch pin trick might get better performance on some trails.

...For me, on road handling is pretty much my number one priority.....

I agree with you here and it's obvious that Mr. T's engineers were thinking that way also. It makes sense for most of us that DD or have other members of our family using our 80s.

 

[cruiserruf]

Excuse my ignorance but couldn't you just change the front control arms to allow less binding? I'm no suspension guru but it seems to be the most common problem/complaint.

 

[80t0ylc]

Excuse my ignorance but couldn't you just change the front control arms to allow less binding? I'm no suspension guru but it seems to be the most common problem/complaint.

That's the idea with the x-link & 3 link setups. Some of the problems encountered are:
1. Few choices available for purchasing a kit.
2. Quality of kit.
3. How high of a lift do you have or want when finished with mod.
4. How much does the finished mod affect on road performance.
I'm sure I left out something, but this will get you started. If you have some fabrication skills, and want to come up with a replacement control arm, and tests to prove the improvements in performance - you'll have some interested people after you.

 

[Ebag333]

Whoa, there - turbo! It seems to me, like "easier" flex is better flex or "more" flex. At least what is allowed by the limitations of the front LCA mounts.

But, what I think you mean here is wheel travel and that's true. The purpose of the anti-sway bars is to reduce body sway or roll in turns. It accomplishes this by resisting body & frame movement in turns caused by centrifugal force. In a turn the outside wheel is driven up and the inside wheel tends to go down because of the body movement from centrifugal force. It offers no resistance when both wheels on the same axle move in the same direction. The sway bar actually resists the same movement that we need for articulation in off road driving. The effects may not be very noticeable when the sway bar is disco'd, but the logic is perfectly sound. So the front LCA mounts may be the biggest limitation for flex.

Now, I know that even if the flex is working well, the stock wheel travel is still not acceptable for the wheeling that some of us want to do. But, I think that for owners like myself, who can live with the stock setup, temporarily disco-ing the sway bar and possibly doing the hitch pin trick might get better performance on some trails.

In this case easier = easier, not better or more.

As you said, the way the sway bar works is to reduce body sway/roll, it simply slows down the movement, it doesn't stop it.

See, for me, I don't want body roll when wheeling. I've seen trucks wheel without sway bars and to me they look like boats on an ocean, rocking back and forth. Then you have the 80's which look only slightly better than the IFS rigs, which wheel about like a board.

When you disconnect the sway bars, you will get the exact same amount of flex as you will with them connected, you'll just achieve it slightly quicker/easier. But that doesn't mean that the sway bar will stop you from getting the same amount of flex.

A perfect example is the rear sway bar. Even with the rear sway bar connected, you can still get mega flex out of the back end. There is no real point into removing the rear sway bar, it won't get you and better (or really even easier) flex.

The front should be the same. But it's not, not because of the sway bar but because of the binding we have.

Excuse my ignorance but couldn't you just change the front control arms to allow less binding? I'm no suspension guru but it seems to be the most common problem/complaint.

That's the idea with the x-link & 3 link setups. Some of the problems encountered are:
1. Few choices available for purchasing a kit.
2. Quality of kit.
3. How high of a lift do you have or want when finished with mod.
4. How much does the finished mod affect on road performance.
I'm sure I left out something, but this will get you started. If you have some fabrication skills, and want to come up with a replacement control arm, and tests to prove the improvements in performance - you'll have some interested people after you.

Changing the front control arms is expensive. ToolsRUs came up with some thinner ones, but he has no interest in producing them due to cost.

The other challenge is that it effects on road performance. Any changes you make will effect on road performance, pure and simple.

That's the beauty of the X-Link design. Pin it in place, and you have the exact same performance on road as you did before the mod. Unpin it, and you have more flex.

80t0ylc's list is a good one.

 

[kidglove13]

Hopefully you can get one designed and made soon because that would be the true test.
Plus I would definitely like to try it out myself.