Intercooler theory and sizing debate (1 Viewer)

[DieselFumes]

Looks great, some useful reading for myself, you'll have to let us know how it works out when the pedal gets mashed a few times!

 

[Volcano cruiser]

Guys,
Anyone have any experience with this product:
Barrel Style Water to Air Intercooler

From the specs it looks like it could be a reasonably priced alternative to the PWR barrels but I'm no intercooler expert. If folks have had good experience with this it could make my half dream stage intercooler project much more of a reality. I'd like to get your thoughts
Thanks,
John

 

[rchalmers3]

Guys,
Anyone have any experience with this product:
Barrel Style Water to Air Intercooler

From the specs it looks like it could be a reasonably priced alternative to the PWR barrels but I'm no intercooler expert. If folks have had good experience with this it could make my half dream stage intercooler project much more of a reality. I'd like to get your thoughts

I did not see any transfer efficiency claims. I believe that is because there are so many variables regarding heat transfer: speed of liquid travel, quantity of water, radiator efficiency and so on. Still, I think they could post some type of measured ability.

I am with you: this may be an elegant solution to low speed wheeling using charged air intake motors. Have you delved into their other products? Where do you see a good place on your truck to mount the pump, reservoir and radiator?

Rick

 

[Volcano cruiser]

Rick,
When I was noodling the design of this around in my head I was looking at the three piece PWR barrel systems, i.e., the barrel, the rad and the electric water pump. As I was having the new rad done for my 1HZ I had the rad shop place pins on the rad bracket to be able to mount the air condenser on top and in front of the engine rad, with the intercooler rad slung right under the air condenser, mounted on the engine rad bracket, in front of the lower portion of the engine rad. I had the rad shop owner look all over for an intercooler rad that would fit the space, 20 x 7 x 1.5. No dice. So I'm having him make one. They are a lazy bunch there, it should have been done two weeks ago, I'm still waiting. Re: placement of the water pump, speaking to the owner of the mechanic shop we decided that we can make a small bracket along the side of the engine rad bracket in/out of the intercooler rad. Obviously we aren't stuck on this yet, I'm still trying to get all the bits together so a ways to go still.
John

 

[rchalmers3]

with the intercooler rad slung right under the air condenser, mounted on the engine rad bracket, in front of the lower portion of the engine rad.

John, a little constructive questioning is following.....

I thought the advantage of the water/air inter-cooler was to be able to configure a system that:

a) did not place another heat load up in front of the radiator
b) allow for a dedicated fan to cool the charged air regardless of road speed.
c) shorten the charged air pathway

By the description of your intended install, I am not clear you will be achieving any of these benefits gained by the added complexity. Is there more to your design that gives the system an advantage over the simpler air/air method? What are your objectives? What are your calculated heat loads and system performance?

Rick

 

[Volcano cruiser]

John, a little constructive questioning is following.....

I thought the advantage of the water/air inter-cooler was to be able to configure a system that:

a) did not place another heat load up in front of the radiator
b) allow for a dedicated fan to cool the charged air regardless of road speed.
c) shorten the charged air pathway

By the description of your intended install, I am not clear you will be achieving any of these benefits gained by the added complexity. Is there more to your design that gives the system an advantage over the simpler air/air method? What are your objectives? What are your calculated heat loads and system performance?

Rick

Rick,
As I said, I'm still putting this together and learning along the way. Constructive questioning is always welcome. As to air to air, the biggest problem as I could see it is location. Most people mount the intercooler on top of the engine, close to the airbox. The problem is feeding the intercooler there, i.e. where does the forced air come from? Most people cut a hood scoop in and have it feed the intercooler directly. I mulled this over and decided , in the end, that while my build is not stock, most of the Toyota, but non stock upgrades are no where near the surface, engine, brakes, suspension, cooling system, axles etc. So no radical "visible" breaks from what a cruiser should look like. A hood scoop, to me crossed that line. I experimented with hiding the scoop by integrating it with the cowl, kind of a pop up scoop. While I could achieve the same aesthetic and get the scoop, the physics were all wrong in terms of position of the scoop vis a vis the amount of air that it would take in. See crusher's latest build and his highway scoop placement test results. This basically eliminated the air to air design for me.
I caught onto this thread and liked the PWR system's simplicity of design. The barrel, basically mounts in the same position, on top of the engine near the air box so that there is a very short path that the cooled air has to travel. The rad mounts in various places, basically where you have space. Most folks seem to place them out front of the engine rad and low, some even sling the intercooler rad under the rig, if it is not going off road. I go off road so it has to go in front and low. Basically the size of the rad is the biggest that I have space for and in sq inches it is the same size or bigger than the ones that come in various of the pwr configurations. The biggest factor on the rad, the builder of the engine rad, is throwing it in free because I'm pissed at his shop's constant delays. So I get to a free intercooler rad that is custom built to fill what would otherwise be unused space in front of the engine rad and low under the a/c condensor. The water pump keeps the coolant circulating in the system. While I definitely see the utility of the fan, especially in low speed , off road situations, I just don't see where in the name of Great Ceasar's Ghost I could fit one given how tight space is now in the engine bay with the 1Hz in there.
As such, every element of this system becomes a compromise between price, capability and performance. For the price, a PWR "style" system can't be beat. It is just about all I'd be capable of wedging in given the space limitations I have. In terms of perfomance, on the highway and on the street I will certainly be feeding my engine cooler, denser air than it would otherwise get if there was no intercooler in place. The perfomance benefit will drop off as speed slows and there is less air being forced through the intercooler rad, thereby meaning less cooler, denser air being fed into my engine. The way I see it my engine will be better fed 80% of the time than it is at present as this rig is an 80/20 DD/off road rig. So the question for me is if I can put together an intercooler system that will give me some performance improvement 80% of the time why not do it for a reasonable price.
John

 

[rchalmers3]

John,

I got you are looking for improvements for 80% of your driving habits. I'm way over here, with no horse in the race or dog in the fight, but.....

May I make a suggestion? If you have not already done so, I recommend you measure or carefully calculate your current charged air temperatures.

It would be educational to know (here come more a,b,c's):
a) how much heat there is available to extract, which would lead to
b) what system configuration will provide the desired results, within design considerations, leading to
c) installing the designed system and confirming the results

Do you remember that quote from the movie "Jurassic Park" where the scientist says: "they were so busy seeing if they could, they didn't bother to stop and ask if they should".

My point (opinion only) is, if you are running factory levels of boost, you are gonna be doing a lot of things to the charged air intake system to gain a little. If your plans including tweaking boost levels and fuel for increased power, well then..... if that is your goal, I'm all for it!!!

Cheers,

Rick

 

[Volcano cruiser]

John,

I got you are looking for improvements for 80% of your driving habits. I'm way over here, with no horse in the race or dog in the fight, but.....

May I make a suggestion? If you have not already done so, I recommend you measure or carefully calculate your current charged air temperatures.

It would be educational to know (here come more a,b,c's):
a) how much heat there is available to extract, which would lead to
b) what system configuration will provide the desired results, within design considerations, leading to
c) installing the designed system and confirming the results

Do you remember that quote from the movie "Jurassic Park" where the scientist says: "they were so busy seeing if they could, they didn't bother to stop and ask if they should".

My point (opinion only) is, if you are running factory levels of boost, you are gonna be doing a lot of things to the charged air intake system to gain a little. If your plans including tweaking boost levels and fuel for increased power, well then..... if that is your goal, I'm all for it!!!

Cheers,

Rick

Rick,
As always you make good points and as usual you point out something that I may not have mentioned in this thread, I'm building a CT26 turbo for my 1HZ. So which will be ready first, complete putting together the turbo or gather all of the pieces of the intercooler system, remains to be seen The end result is the same, my 1HZ will get turbo charged and intercooled. As such I will be running not a crazy amount of boost, under 10psi, but well within the range for this engine. Anyway you cut it it won't be factory levels of non-turbo boost for the 1HZ, hence my interest in the intercooler.

It is funny but I had given some thought to installing a pyrometer before turbo install to get a sense of the pre-turbo EGTs. When I mentioned it to the owner of the mechanic shop the entire place went silent. I felt like I was the only one in the room who couldn't feel a earthquake. They couldn't de-link the idea of having a pyrometer from simultaneously installing a turbo. They are coming around so item (a) on your list is already on mind. As to (b) and (c), space doesn't give me much option so I will follow the maxim of install the biggest intercooler that you have space for. I will do the math and try to match the flow capacity of the rad with the barrel and pump specs. I take as a given that there will be a period of balancing the boost level and attendant EGTs with the cooling capacity of the biggest intercooler that I can wedge in there. As usual thanks for the constructive points. I'd rather that someone pointed up a problem here while I'm thinking and sourcing bits and pieces than hear about after it is all mounted. Keep it coming.
John

 

[Dougal]

Rick,
As always you make good points and as usual you point out something that I may not have mentioned in this thread, I'm building a CT26 turbo for my 1HZ. So which will be ready first, complete putting together the turbo or gather all of the pieces of the intercooler system, remains to be seen The end result is the same, my 1HZ will get turbo charged and intercooled. As such I will be running not a crazy amount of boost, under 10psi, but well within the range for this engine. Anyway you cut it it won't be factory levels of non-turbo boost for the 1HZ, hence my interest in the intercooler.

Under 10psi there is no point in an intercooler.
The pressure drop across it will probably reduce density more than the cooling of the air will increase it.

 

[rchalmers3]

As such I will be running not a crazy amount of boost, under 10psi, but well within the range for this engine.

dougal has the best advise. Saying what he said differently, for charged air under 10psi it will take a intercooler capable of heat extraction to below ambient air temperature to achieve results worth the effort.

There are tools available on the internet to calculate to a very close approximation everything you are considering: Your engines volumetric capacity, pressure and temperature rises when charging the intake air, intercooler efficiencies and so on. I can shoot you some addresses that have the tools, and recommend some reading if you want to evaluate and design a system.

It is funny but I had given some thought to installing a pyrometer before turbo install to get a sense of the pre-turbo EGTs.

I was actually referring to the charged intake air temperature. EGT's will show combustion temps, but it is difficult to extrapolate any meaningful information about intercooler effectiveness through exhaust gas temps.

Now that I have read your intended levels of boost, I don't think it will be useful to measure the charged air temps. Staying under 10psi will leave you in a safe zone of low heat addition.

Buzz kill, huh? Sorry man, tweak the thing to 1 bar and lets design your air/water intercooler!!!

Rick

 

[Volcano cruiser]

dougal has the best advise. Saying what he said differently, for charged air under 10psi it will take a intercooler capable of heat extraction to below ambient air temperature to achieve results worth the effort.

There are tools available on the internet to calculate to a very close approximation everything you are considering: Your engines volumetric capacity, pressure and temperature rises when charging the intake air, intercooler efficiencies and so on. I can shoot you some addresses that have the tools, and recommend some reading if you want to evaluate and design a system.



I was actually referring to the charged intake air temperature. EGT's will show combustion temps, but it is difficult to extrapolate any meaningful information about intercooler effectiveness through exhaust gas temps.

Now that I have read your intended levels of boost, I don't think it will be useful to measure the charged air temps. Staying under 10psi will leave you in a safe zone of low heat addition.

Buzz kill, huh? Sorry man, tweak the thing to 1 bar and lets design your air/water intercooler!!!

Rick

Rick,
Dude, you haven't killed my buzz. Send me the links. I always feel better after I do the math and get a result that I can peg up on a board and use as a reference throughout a project. The bottom line is Both the turbo and an intercooler are going to go on. I already have most of the parts to build the CT-26 and I already have the rad made for the intercooler ( remember, it was thrown in for free by the shop that made my engine rad). I'm too looking forward to building the turbo myself to even think about stopping. As to the intercooler, the PWR style barrels are three component systems and I already have a third of it. If it makes sense, after running the calculations, that if I have an intercooler of a certain size I can run a certain boost level, I will. Or vice versa if I look at the factory turbo settings let's say of an intercooled 1HD-T I'll see if I can run an intercooler of the near the same configuration. The whole point is to maximize the potential and performance of my new engine. It needs a turbo to really wake up on the highway. It makes sense to me to fed the turboed , new engine cooler, denser air. Send me the links so I can run the numbers. This will be a big help. Thanks.

 

[rchalmers3]

Here's some stuff to start with.


Some very general theory to consider regarding gas flow: Turbo Exhaust Theory

A condensed source of theory and formulas for calculating and designing: Amazon.com: Maximum Boost: Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems (Engineering and Performance) (9780837601601): Corky Bell: Books

An online intake tract calculator for testing ideas, scenarios and learning what matters. Your T3 is mapped here: Not2Fast: Turbo Calculator

AXT offers graphs of stock and Turbo Toyota diesels. Link is to the 2H, you can sift through the site for your host motor: Toyota 2H Landcruiser 4.0 Turbocharger Kit

Hope this is sufficient to get you rolling!

Rick

 

[Dougal]

Just remember, the sole point of a turbo and intercooler is to increase the density of the air going into the engine.

A large part of this is minimising any restrictions in the inlet piping. An intercooler is actually a large restriction so you need a certain amount of boost before the cooling from the intercooler does a better job than it takes as a restriction in the system.

 

[Christian]

I understand the point about having a certain amount of boost before there is a necessity to mount an intercooler, it sounds logical, but nevertheless the original manufactuerers like Toyota, Nissan, Mitzubishi, Mercedes etc. etc. does mount intercoolers while running at these low pressures, why is that then?

My idea is to relocate the tube on the wategate from the turbo itself to the intake manifold, thus negating the pressure drop in the intercooler, doesn't that negate the negative effects of the pressure drop across the intercooler?

Btw I love the quality if the PWR, it just seems really well build, so keep looking on Ebay etc, I'm sure a good deal will turn up.

 

[rchalmers3]

I understand the point about having a certain amount of boost before there is a necessity to mount an intercooler, it sounds logical, but nevertheless the original manufactuerers like Toyota, Nissan, Mitzubishi, Mercedes etc. etc. does mount intercoolers while running at these low pressures, why is that then?

It is my guess that manufacturers have other requirements and goals to consider. Cooling the combustion process, or raising the corporate mileage, even to a small degree makes a huge impact when you consider aggregate fuel economy or corporate emissions. Especially when you are speaking about a million units.... per year. Selling cars and trucks often depend on very fine details such as these.



I have not been saying adding an intercooler is not necessary or desirable. I have been trying to point out to the OP there is a way to measure the cost/benefit of a retro-fit.

His situation is like your concept was, I think, worthy of consideration. My hope is for someone planning an install is to use a little science in their work: measuring the motor function before and after the final installation of a turbo and intercooler. This way, we can really get to know what we waste our time and money on, and talk so much about!

Rick

Rick

 

[eleblanc]

Under 10psi there is no point in an intercooler.
The pressure drop across it will probably reduce density more than the cooling of the air will increase it.

That was not my conclusion with water to air intercoller even if m'y wastegate is set to 10psi i got a good 100 to 150 deg f of temp drop at my egt

 

[Dougal]

That was not my conclusion with water to air intercoller even if m'y wastegate is set to 10psi i got a good 100 to 150 deg f of temp drop at my egt

Under 10 there's no point, 10 is about the point you start considering it.
By the time you're running 13-15psi you should be running one. I'm still running 20psi and no intercooler, but I again have access to fabrication workshops so I can sort that out.

Have you ever measured the temps either side of your intercooler?
A good healthy turbo will put out 10psi at about 85C (with 20C inlet).

 

[Volcano cruiser]

Here's some stuff to start with.


Some very general theory to consider regarding gas flow: Turbo Exhaust Theory

A condensed source of theory and formulas for calculating and designing: Amazon.com: Maximum Boost: Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems (Engineering and Performance) (9780837601601): Corky Bell: Books

An online intake tract calculator for testing ideas, scenarios and learning what matters. Your T3 is mapped here: Not2Fast: Turbo Calculator

AXT offers graphs of stock and Turbo Toyota diesels. Link is to the 2H, you can sift through the site for your host motor: Toyota 2H Landcruiser 4.0 Turbocharger Kit

Hope this is sufficient to get you rolling!

Rick

Rick,
How funny is this. I ordered the Corky Bell book from Amazon 10 days ago to help me with building the turbo. Been to the AXT site. I didn't get much out of it at the time, possibly scared off by the kit prices though. I'm primarily using them http://www.axtturbo.com.au/IHZ.html to make sure that I have got all the componenets together for my DIY kit. I stumbled accross that first link a really long time ago. Thanks for resurrecting it, it was a good re-read. I'll have to check out the other one.
Thanks,
John

 

[eleblanc]

Dougal,

I don't want to get into a long argument but I had a overheating problem when i was pulling my M101 going up hills (running 10psi heavy load), as soon as my EGT would reach 1000 deg F the block water temp would sky rocket very quickly to 230 and more.

I fitted the intercooler and it drop the egt between 100-150, so now i can run flat out pulling the trailer and water temps are steady. Still today running 10psi

Same thing would happened if i had my fuel set higher and going up long hills flat out without the trailer.

So i cannot agree with you. My conclusion were obvious, with a intercooler i could run higher fuel delivery without reaching max allowable EGT temp (before water temp would go crazy).

Eric

Under 10 there's no point, 10 is about the point you start considering it.
By the time you're running 13-15psi you should be running one. I'm still running 20psi and no intercooler, but I again have access to fabrication workshops so I can sort that out.

Have you ever measured the temps either side of your intercooler?
A good healthy turbo will put out 10psi at about 85C (with 20C inlet).

 

[Dougal]

Dougal,

I don't want to get into a long argument but I had a overheating problem when i was pulling my M101 going up hills (running 10psi heavy load), as soon as my EGT would reach 1000 deg F the block water temp would sky rocket very quickly to 230 and more.

I fitted the intercooler and it drop the egt between 100-150, so now i can run flat out pulling the trailer and water temps are steady. Still today running 10psi

Same thing would happened if i had my fuel set higher and going up long hills flat out without the trailer.

So i cannot agree with you. My conclusion were obvious, with a intercooler i could run higher fuel delivery without reaching max allowable EGT temp (before water temp would go crazy).

Eric

That's an engine cooling problem which an intercooler helped with. It's not the primary or even usual use of an intercooler.