Include a winch with new bumper? Pros, cons, why?

[linuxgod]

FWIW I added about 190-200# with my TT bumper, winch, lights, etc and the difference was only ~1/4". I tested the rake change before installation by having my kids sit on the hood. I have not weight my rig without a trailer but it should be right around 6500# without people in it.

That said I do sometimes feel the weight up front. Particularly when towing if I go over dips I can feel the truck float more, but even unloaded it's a bit more cadillac now. As far as the ride goes, the weight actually makes the regular duty Tough Dog shocks feel really nicely tuned, though next time I do any shock/strut work I'll step up to a heavier coil in the front and especially in the rear.

 

[mcgaskins]

FWIW I added about 190-200# with my TT bumper, winch, lights, etc and the difference was only ~1/4". I tested the rake change before installation by having my kids sit on the hood. I have not weight my rig without a trailer but it should be right around 6500# without people in it.

That said I do sometimes feel the weight up front. Particularly when towing if I go over dips I can feel the truck float more, but even unloaded it's a bit more cadillac now. As far as the ride goes, the weight actually makes the regular duty Tough Dog shocks feel really nicely tuned, though next time I do any shock/strut work I'll step up to a heavier coil in the front and especially in the rear.

Considering my only material mods are tires, sliders, very light non swingout rear ARB bumper, and ARB drawers and I’m at 6,760 pounds according to a scale I’ll bet you’re definitely above 6,500 pounds. I think the reported stock weight is underrated to be honest.

 

[TeCKis300]

All good points for bigger and better. When focused on capacity for recovery, sure, the bigger one wins. There is a trade, and as you suspect it’s due to weight. Cost to a degree, but I don’t think anyone here is too focused on that.

Dorking out alert if you don’t want to read further…

Static weight is one thing. When considering that against a 6500lb vehicle, no big deal. More importantly, it’s the dynamic impacts. Particularly because this weight is hung off the very nose of the vehicle. Weight here has more impact to the vehicles ability to turn than anywhere else. There is no worse place to carry weight, because of how it impacts the moment of inertia.

Consider that most cars have a crash bar located in the front bumper. These are almost always aluminum, including the one in the 200-series. We know AL is more expensive than steel. Why should a manufacturer bother for several pounds of savings, for something that is hidden and has relatively little functional merit vs steel? There is measurable impact to even some added pounds here.

I personally like driving hard around corners, but that lost performance may not resonate with most here. Where this will show up for off-roaders is in low traction situations. Pretty much anywhere offroad, but in rain, and snow. The front tires will need more grip in order to produce enough force to influence steering against that increased moment of inertia. Say you don’t like driving fast. Then perhaps consider it from a safety POV, e.g. moose test. It may be less about avoidance, as one now has armor and recovery to handle the situation.

It's not black and white here on should vs should not, or how big of a winch. It's a balance to be considered.

 

[TonyP]

The weight difference between a Warn Zeon 8k winch and a Warn Zeon 12k winch is 22 pounds.

Go on keto for a month if 22 pounds is that big of a deal.

 

[linuxgod]

Considering my only material mods are tires, sliders, very light non swingout rear ARB bumper, and ARB drawers and I’m at 6,760 pounds according to a scale I’ll bet you’re definitely above 6,500 pounds. I think the reported stock weight is underrated to be honest.

Is that with you in the rig or without?

It's entirely possible I'm heavier. You always shave off 10 lbs on your drivers license. I need to get on a scale empty to see. So far whenever I've checked I had people and gear in the truck. I was at ~8300# with 5 people, gear, and a trailer attached this summer. Subtract 550# for people and 800# for the trailer TW and remove the cooler and stuff I don't normally carry and I'm easily at 6800-6900.

 

[mcgaskins]

Is that with you in the rig or without?

It's entirely possible I'm heavier. You always shave off 10 lbs on your drivers license. I need to get on a scale empty to see. So far whenever I've checked I had people and gear in the truck. I was at ~8300# with 5 people, gear, and a trailer attached this summer. Subtract 550# for people and 800# for the trailer TW and remove the cooler and stuff I don't normally carry and I'm easily at 6800-6900.

I was in the truck at the time, but I'm a very light dude especially after recently losing a bit of weight. I'm well under 150 pounds, but I did have a full tank of gas which is roughly the same if not a little heavier. Either way I was surprised considering the published stock weight is only 5.8k pounds which I'm convinced is a dry weight without fluids. There's no way my light build added nearly 850 pounds to the truck, so I think the starting point was higher than the published specs. It would be great to have someone with a bone stock truck go to a CAT scale.

 

[DirtNap]

Two comments for consideration:
1) I heard an interview with a guy (Aussie?) whose job is recoveries, and he said that over a year, the average pull was something like 2,500 pounds peak. Not sure how he measured, and of course there is a distribution above and below 2500#, but it does put the "1.5x GVWR" rule of thumb into question. To TonyP's point, dunno how much weight difference that makes.

2) If you aren't going to use it very often, you could consider putting it on a front hitch receiver and leave it at home most of the time. Obvious downsides to that (approach angle, hernia) and may not make sense if you are already doing steel bumper.

But IIRC, you said you generally did pretty mild trails - I'm thinking forest service roads? You could probably do without the winch. Maybe carry a come-along and MaxTrax as insurance when you wheel.

 

[mcgaskins]

Two comments for consideration:
1) I heard an interview with a guy (Aussie?) whose job is recoveries, and he said that over a year, the average pull was something like 2,500 pounds peak. Not sure how he measured, and of course there is a distribution above and below 2500#, but it does put the "1.5x GVWR" rule of thumb into question. To TonyP's point, dunno how much weight difference that makes.

I would be very interested to see this source, because in almost every recovery I've been involved in that is most definitely not the case. I'd be curious to see how he measured how much force was required.

My mild built truck weighs 6700 pounds before passengers. You sink that into deep snow, mud, sand, etc. I can guarantee it's going to take a lot more than 2500 pounds of force to yank it out. I think the 1.5x the GVWR is a wise rule of thumb, and coming from someone who's buried a 100 over the frame rails in mud and used 100% (probably more like 120%) of the 10k winch's capacity I feel very confident in that recommendation.

 

[Markuson]

Two comments for consideration:
1) I heard an interview with a guy (Aussie?) whose job is recoveries, and he said that over a year, the average pull was something like 2,500 pounds peak. Not sure how he measured, and of course there is a distribution above and below 2500#, but it does put the "1.5x GVWR" rule of thumb into question. To TonyP's point, dunno how much weight difference that makes.

2) If you aren't going to use it very often, you could consider putting it on a front hitch receiver and leave it at home most of the time. Obvious downsides to that (approach angle, hernia) and may not make sense if you are already doing steel bumper.

But IIRC, you said you generally did pretty mild trails - I'm thinking forest service roads? You could probably do without the winch. Maybe carry a come-along and MaxTrax as insurance when you wheel.

I’m sure that light pull is super common.
I’d wager most pulls aren’t heavy.
Sometimes you just need a little nudge...or you’re really just winching to prevent a roll back (I sincerely doubt Dan is interested in those trails though!).

For example: Those photos Kreitin posted of winching a couple trucks up Hell’s Gate had nothing to do with forward movement or lack of traction. They had traction to spare. Those pulls were because they ready to do backflips. The winching was just about keeping their noses to the rock.

But there are other times where it’s way up there and it’s easy to tell. When the winch slows waaay down on its own, it’s pulling at the high end of its rating. Man, on one pull last Summer, it was pulling suuuper hard....to the point that I really would have been well served to use the snatch block as @Taco2Cruiser wisely defaults to. I really should have myself.

Re the “easy trail” thing:
To me, the biggest reason for power (and a snatch) for folks on easier trails is *surprise mud bogs.* They can get you in the most benign-looking trails! (Ask me how I know!!).

You can be putting along on easy-street, and suddenly your down to your belly in GLUE because some dirt-put had no way to drain accumulated rainfall. For that, even a big winch with a snatch might struggle depending on what’s going on at your belly.

But anyway...
I’ma shut up now and wait til Dan decides what he wants. Always interesting to think about this stuff though, since it gets all of us thinking about why we do what we do (and how we might need to do something different than we do!). I can say (admit) that it’s reminded me I’m silly not to whip out my snatch block and fully utilize my front tow points with it.

 

[TeCKis300]

The weight difference between a Warn Zeon 8k winch and a Warn Zeon 12k winch is 22 pounds.

Go on keto for a month if 22 pounds is that big of a deal.

That's one perspective.

The difference between a 12k winch and no winch is 136lbs. Plus supporting installation and accessories. Easily greater than 10% the stock payload capacity.

Consider a guy with a football. Barely any weight. Do an obstacle course with it tucked. Versus held out in front. That's a difference that some may want to consider.

To your point, the OE which is an 8k. Sized for a stock vehicle. A modified vehicle will want more.

 

[Markuson]

That's one perspective.

The difference between a 12k winch and no winch is 136lbs. Plus supporting installation and accessories. Easily 10% the stock payload capacity.

Consider a guy with a football. Barely any weight. Do an obstacle course with it tucked. Versus held out in front. That's a difference that some may want to consider.

That wasn’t his comment. His comment was about the weight *difference* between winch rating choices. Not winch vs. nothing.

 

[Dan Higgins]

After reading through this thread about 5 times I am going to try and respond to many of the comments. This was a great discussion! It hasn't "closed the deal" for me yet but has given me a lot to mull over.

• First, to clarify the type of trail driving I do, yes it is easy/moderate but the moderate trails are usually rated that way because of their conditions when wet. Which means that I could easily be on a trail that is "easy" for 95% of it because it is dry and then there is that one wet spot. (More on this in a moment.) When I say I don't care to do the more challenging trails it really means that 1) I don't like shelf roads (no BB for me), 2) I really don't care for the shake, rattle and roll of rock crawling and 3) I absolutely don't want to risk body damage or undercarriage damage (so no Golden Crack, or Hells Gate or TOTW - I'll hike those or do a ride along if I need to see or photograph something at the end.) Bottom line - even the "easy" trails I take can have places where I could get stuck. Especially as I expect to do more exploring (note that I say "exploring", not "wheeling") in the PNW where they have a LOT more trees and a LOT more water!
• Another point. I bought this truck for two reasons. To explore/see/photograph places that I cannot reliably and comfortably get to in a lesser vehicle. It is first for exploration off pavement. Second - and this is somewhat distant because it happens less often - it needs to be able to tow our 27', 6000# travel trailer which it does nicely. But aside from the tow out to Oregon and the eventual tow back to the Rockies my typical tow is <200 miles maybe 4-6 times per year. The third priority is comfort and stability on long, highway road trips. And last is as a DD which it is but because I am retired I can easily let it sit for a few days as my wife and I drive our CRV and leave the LC in the garage. Maybe those priorities make sense.
• Also, I am not a "performance" driver. I tend closer to the speed limit. I rarely take a turn more then 5MPH more than the yellow warning sign. Sometime as I got older - maybe when towing - I decided that when it comes to trading off stress or arriving 10% sooner, I would rather have less stress. Driving is therapeutic for me. I will often find myself taking a deep breath and just relaxing as others go racing by. I don't mind pulling over or pulling off to let someone else pass. I prefer to leave a legit 2-3 car gap in front of me (which is why I like the adaptive cruise.) So aside from accident avoidance maneuvers, I don't worry to much about "handling". I bring all this up because some have made the case that the addition of a bumper would have a negative and noticeable impact on handling and driving performance. I'm not sure I would notice it.
• @Taco2Cruiser, I very much appreciate your input. Seriously. On a forum like this there is a natural bias towards bigger, stronger, "badder" and it is easy to get caught up in maxing out your rig. (Therefore the very honest and open thread that Mark started a few days ago.) All of this experience and information is awesome. And I know from experience that I can get a bit caught up in the "I want to be like - or have a rig like so-and-so". I am not fully settled on getting a bumper yet and at least in my case, I won't do a winch without doing a bumper. Though until this point I have done my mods gradually with a good understanding of the "why", the bumper/winch is a much bigger commitment than tires, sliders, roof rack, drawers and even the suspension. So I appreciate cautionary/balancing perspective.
• @Markuson, @mcgaskins, @linuxgod, @Sandroad, @ckkone, @TimCFJ40, @cmck, @pcut, I certainly understand that it doesn't take a "difficult" trail to get stuck. Below is a picture of me very stuck in snow on an easy trailer (Weston Pass in CO) a couple of years ago in my LR4. Miles and miles of easy, dry if bumpy road. Nice warm weather. At the top of the pass, in a shady, 50 yard stretch of the road was some snow. It looked like it was only a few inches deep if that. Wrong. Plowed in. Sank down. High centered. In trouble. I don't know if a winch would have gotten me out of that one but although I swore to my wife that I would never do something stupid like that again - I know better!
• And, yes, I know I should never wheel alone. But I don't know a lot of people that can head off and explore mid-week like a retired guy! And I'm not going to sit home and wait for the weekends.
• @TonyP, rest assured. If I do this, I will go for the 12. I'm not rich so it may not be a Platinum but I have enough budget so that cost is not the primary issue.
• And, @Taco2Cruiser, I would definitely get some training! I am not the most mechanically inclined person. I sold my Hi Lift because I was too intimidated by it to use it. I had some brief training from Bill Burke and at one of the Rising Sun (Colorado TLCA) meetings. But training doesn't really settle in without experience. I have towed a couple of people out when on the trail and I do carry recovery gear. But I have no experience with a winch.

Bottom line is that you all have given me much to think about. I'll let you know of course. It may not happen until early next year. I need to sit with Slee and go over the options, cost and scheduling. I also hope that this discussion has been helpful to others!

Dan

In these two pics, how would I have used a winch to get myself out of the snow? It was shortly after this experience that I purchased a pair of MaxTrax which I always carry with me. (Also note that I am not in the pics. The guy sitting on the snow is one of 2 adventure motorcyclists that happened by and spent 3 hours helping dig us out!)

 

[Markuson]

Hey Dan...about training...

If you come to LCDC...Slee always does an instructional trail run to go over great basic info like winching. Might wanna sign on to that one if you make it this year.

 

[Mendocino]

Because of this thread I added a Warn ZEON 10K S Platinum winch to my 200 build today. You can see it in the picture on the bench to the left, near a well known 4x4 celebrity.

 

[Markuson]

Because of this thread I added a Warn ZEON 10K S Platinum winch to my 200 build today. You can see it in the picture on the bench to the left, near a well known 4x4 celebrity.

That really is a cool aspect of reading along with questions you didn’t ask. I’ve probably learned about or been made aware of more ideas because of questions OTHERS asked than the ones I thought to ask myself. Sometimes it’s hard to know what questions you even need answers to until someone else asks it...or makes you ponder some other related idea.

Example: Taco indirectly convinced me I should be using my snatch block more instead of waiting for extreme pulls.

Happens all the time... I get to benefit and learn...even as I respond to questions.

 

[jblatl]

I went out to my trucks and checked the model numbers.

The Warn 12000 with synthetic line is on the 200 series and I installed it without removing the bumper. There is very little clearance but I did it!

My Warn M12 with steel cable is on the Ford F-250 and is newer by a few years. They both look identical except for the controller.

I use the one on the Ford about every other week pulling equipment out of ditches (usually ford tractors) and it has never let me down.

I have used the winch on the cruiser to move some trees out of the road but never to free the truck.

A good winch is just like a good pocket knife.

 

[jblatl]

This was me driving about five years ago, I did not use a winch to get out of this. But never leave home with out one.

 

[jblatl]

And I trashed this old 40 at wind rock, i did rescue this one a few times with the winch.

 

[Taco2Cruiser]

That really is a cool aspect of reading along with questions you didn’t ask. I’ve probably learned about or been made aware of more ideas because of questions OTHERS asked than the ones I thought to ask myself. Sometimes it’s hard to know what questions you even need answers to until someone else asks it...or makes you ponder some other related idea.

Example: Taco indirectly convinced me I should be using my snatch block more instead of waiting for extreme pulls.

Happens all the time... I get to benefit and learn...even as I respond to questions.

There’s things we know, that we know.
There’s things we know, that we don’t know.
There’s things we don’t know, that we know.
And there’s things we don’t know, that we don’t know.
-Rumsfeld (more or less)

 

[Markuson]

There’s things we know, that we know.
There’s things we know, that we don’t know.
There’s things don’t know, that we know.
And there’s things we don’t know, that we don’t know.
-Rumsfeld (more or less)

Yes!

As long as we know that there are things we don’t know...we’re off to a good start.

**More importantly on forums like these:
-It’s an easy mistake for newer folk to assume folks with big fat trucks always know what they’re doing.

Trust me...we don’t.

But trust me too when I say...
...you don’t wanna ask for help from those who DO “know” everything...

...because they don’t either!

That’s why I like listening to guys like a @Taco2Cruiser and others. He knows plenty, but he ain’t done learning.