Help me plan for a 2FE

[RockDoc]

Can anyone confirm that a 3FE dipstick is fine for a 2F? Best I can tell by looking at the blocks, the dipstick tube and placement is the same, so the dipstick length should be the same as well, but SOR lists them as different items.

 

[pappy]

Toyota lists them as the same part number ... 15301-60031

 

[RockDoc]

Toyota lists them as the same part number ... 15301-60031

Thank you sir!! Can check that off the mental list.

Is there a website where you can check this stuff? Or do you need to have the electronic parts catalogue?

 

[pappy]

I use the EPC. It is invaluable working on my junk. BTW, list price from Toyota is $16.26, but I suspect you already have one.

 

[RockDoc]

Thought I would share the trick I used to get my crank nut off with the engine sitting in a cradle, and without an impact wrench. The rope is wrapped around the pulley 8 or 10 times then looped around a 2x6. The 2x6 is levered against the floor to hold the pulley/crank stationary once the slack is taken up. I'd say it took somewhere around 350 ft-lbs to break the nut loose.

Next I need to get a puller for the pulley (should have thought ahead on that one) and figure out how to tear apart the bell housing and clutch assembly (newbism shining through).

 

[pappy]

Try pulling the pulley off. I have never needed a pulley to remove any of the four 3FE pulleys I've taken possession of.

 

[PurpleFJ62]

thats one hell of a breaker bar, where you find that. 3/4 inch drive?

 

[RockDoc]

thats one hell of a breaker bar, where you find that. 3/4 inch drive?

Yes it is big, yes 3/4", I got it at Princess Auto (Canadian Harbor Freight).

 

[cruiser88]

real men use inch drive

Yes it is big, yes 3/4", I got it at Princess Auto (Canadian Harbor Freight).

 

[matt.mcinnes]

real men use inch drive

Real MEN use their fingers first

 

[RockDoc]

With you guys it's all how many inches, and driving this, finger that.

With a bit of luck (and beer) I should have the pistons and rods out tonight to see what shape they're in. All lifters but one are out, the last will need a bit off coercing from below.

 

[RockDoc]

Try pulling the pulley off. I have never needed a puller to remove any of the four 3FE pulleys I've taken possession of.

Any tip you can share? You were able to pull them off by hand? Mine sure doesn't seem to want to come off easily (2F).

When I changed the pan gasket on my 62, the pan came off like butter. No such luck with this one. Gonna be a bit longer till I get a look at the pistons.

 

[pappy]

Yes, they pulled off by hand.

 

[zebrabeefj40]

'Nother good thread on 2FE's:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-...head-injection-real-world-stories-please.html

And Crazy, I'm from Indiana not Ohio!

Wish I kept the 2FE equiped FJ60 I built. Gotta build another soon.

Nick

Ha doc Nick from Ohio did one......and a damn good job!

he is a good fella

https://forum.ih8mud.com/members/zebrabeefj40.html

 

[zebrabeefj40]

Am I wrong in thinking a machine honing is pretty cheap?

Prices for any machine work varies wildly from shop to shop. Lot of it depends on the type of motor shop: performance/racing shops often charge more than the local parts store in-house machine shop. The higher cost does not equal better work. Skill of the shop personnel determine that. You also might not NEED the higher quality work to meet the goals of your build.

Is it typical to need the cam bearings done on a rebuild?

The cam bearings get replaced for a couple reasons. The obvious is wear. But more often it's so the oil passages can be more thoroughly cleaned. Bearing material disolves in hot tank solution too. And since bearings are relatively cheap knocking used bearings back in after cleaning is false economy (they don't fit right after the first try either). You CAN do them yourself but the right tools cost far more than having the machine shop knock them in for you.

I figure on doing the piston/rod balancing myself...

IMHO you can match the weights the rod/piston combos but you should still give all the pieces to the balance shop for the job. IIRC they need to attach weights to the crank to simulate the rod/piston weights while balancing the crank/balancer/flywheel assembly.

Nick

Am I wrong in thinking a machine honing is pretty cheap? I need to look through the FSM some more, but I'm assuming I can do the main and rod bearings myself, but would need to take it in to have the cam bearings done. Is it typical to need the cam bearings done on a rebuild? I plan to send the cam and lifters off for a re-grinding if that makes a difference.

I figure on doing the piston/rod balancing myself. With the straight 6 having the rod assemblies spread evenly around the 360* of the crank, does it need to have weights attached to balance the rotating assembly? Or can you balance the harmonic balancer + crank + driveplate/ring gear "naked" and assume that with the rods/bearings/pistons/rings properly balanced, they won't affect the rotating balance? Anything else that should be attached for balance (crank pulley)? Does the fluid filling of the torque convertor add any balancing effect (like dynabeads or fluid in tires)?

 

[RockDoc]

Am I wrong in thinking a machine honing is pretty cheap?

Prices for any machine work varies wildly from shop to shop. Lot of it depends on the type of motor shop: performance/racing shops often charge more than the local parts store in-house machine shop. The higher cost does not equal better work. Skill of the shop personnel determine that. You also might not NEED the higher quality work to meet the goals of your build.

Is it typical to need the cam bearings done on a rebuild?

The cam bearings get replaced for a couple reasons. The obvious is wear. But more often it's so the oil passages can be more thoroughly cleaned. Bearing material disolves in hot tank solution too. And since bearings are relatively cheap knocking used bearings back in after cleaning is false economy (they don't fit right after the first try either). You CAN do them yourself but the right tools cost far more than having the machine shop knock them in for you.

I figure on doing the piston/rod balancing myself...

IMHO you can match the weights the rod/piston combos but you should still give all the pieces to the balance shop for the job. IIRC they need to attach weights to the crank to simulate the rod/piston weights while balancing the crank/balancer/flywheel assembly.

Nick

Thanks for the tips.
I'm still not convinced that the rotational balance needs weights for an I6. I believe (and may well be wrong) that the weights come into play on engines that have the rods/pistons that are unevenly distributed around the crank to allow for even firing with a V spread of cylinders.

*edit* Found this which seems to agree:

On V6 and V8 engines, the 60 or 90 degree angle between the cylinder banks requires the use of "bobweights" on the rod journals to simulate the reciprocating mass of the piston and rod assemblies. Inline four and six cylinder crankshafts do not require bobweights. To determine the correct weight for the bobweights, the full weight of a pair of rod bearings and the big end of the connecting rod, plus half the weight of the little end of the rod, piston, rings, wrist pin (and locks if full floating) plus a little oil are added together (100 percent of the rotating weight plus 50 percent of the reciprocating weight). The correct bobweights are then assembled and mounted on the crankshaft rod journals.

That said, I guess it's better to take it in once the rods/pistons/etc are matched to make sure it is done right.

 

[pappy]

I'm not sure how this plays in this discussion, but I've always heard that the I-6 and V-12 engines are inherently balanced because of their design. A quick Google search came up with several articles: Engine Smoothness.

As shown in the picture, straight-6 engine is simply two 3-cylinder engines mated symmetrically together, thus piston 1 is always in the same position as piston 6, piston 2 the same as piston 5 .... in other words, the engine is balanced end-to-end and requires no balancer shaft, unlike 3-cylinder engines.

What about vertical / transverse forces? like 3-cylinder engines, the vertical and transverse forces generated by individual cylinders, no matter first order or second order, are completely balanced by one another. The resultant vibration is nearly zero, thus inline-6 is virtually a perfect configuration.

Inline-6 is not the only configuration can deliver near perfect refinement, but it is the most compact one among them. All boxer engines are perfectly balanced, but they are two wide and require duplicate of blocks, heads and valve gears. V12 engines also achieve perfect balance, but obviously out of the reach of most mass production cars. Automotive engineers knew that long ago, that’s why you can see most of the best classic engines were inline-6, such as Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost, Bentley Speed Six, Mercedes SSK, many Bugattis, Jaguar XK-series and BMW’s various models.

They of course forget the might Toyota F-series which in our world is clearly a classic.

Also from Wikipedia:

An inline six engine is in perfect primary and secondary mechanical balance, which can be achieved without using a balance shaft. The engine is in primary balance because the front and rear trio of cylinders are mirror images and the pistons move in pairs. That is, piston #1 balances #6, #2 balances #5, and #3 balances #4, largely eliminating the polar rocking motion that would otherwise result. Secondary imbalance is avoided because an inline six cylinder crankshaft has six crank throws arranged in three planes displaced at 120 degrees. The result is that differences in piston speed at any given point in rotation are effectively canceled.

An inline four cylinder or V6 engine without a balance shaft will experience secondary dynamic imbalance, resulting in engine vibration. As a general rule, the forces arising from any dynamic imbalance increase as the square of the engine speed—that is, if the speed doubles, vibration will increase by a factor of four. In contrast, inline six engines have no primary or secondary imbalances, and with carefully designed crankshaft vibration dampers to absorb torsional vibration, will run more smoothly at the same crankshaft speed (RPM). This characteristic has made the inline six popular in some European sports-luxury cars, where smooth high-speed performance and good fuel economy are desirable. As engine reciprocating forces increase with the cube of piston mass, inline six is a preferred configuration for large truck engines.

 

[RockDoc]

Got the pistons/rods out this afternoon. First couple went slow till I worked out how to do it, and the last 4 went like butter. I'll get some pics of the pistons and bearings and post them tonight when I have some time, the scoring of the piston skirts looks similar to what came out of Marshall's Big Gay block, although the pistons themselves seem to be different. So..... think I'll be getting new pistons and having the block bored out a bit, but I'll solicit opinions when I get the photos up.

Here's a shot of the cylinder wall off #1, all show the same scoring/scuffing to a degree.

 

[matt.mcinnes]

I would consider upgrading the con rods like I did but on a budget.

Jag Rods from the straight 6 4.2Ltr
Regrind crank to suit and cross drill.
Custom pistons to suit, and there are some good options here I think without huge expense.

Worth looking into at least. The rods were not expensive at all second hand. Ultra sounded and shot blasted.

Moving end float to the pistons too is advantageous as it centers the piston in the bore better.

These are what I went with for mine, 305 flat top but no need to go to the expense of JE, all you need is the hole in the piston to suit the rod length to give to correct deck hight.

http://www.jepistons.com/cat/je/auto/chevy_sb/305_sb_23_flat.shtml

 

[RockDoc]

I would consider upgrading the con rods like I did but on a budget.

Jag Rods from the straight 6 4.2Ltr
Regrind crank to suit and cross drill.
Custom pistons to suit, and there are some good options here I think without huge expense.

Worth looking into at least. The rods were not expensive at all second hand. Ultra sounded and shot blasted.

Moving end float to the pistons too is advantageous as it centers the piston in the bore better.

These are what I went with for mine, 305 flat top but no need to go to the expense of JE, all you need is the hole in the piston to suit the rod length to give to correct deck hight.

JEPistons.com | SMALL BLOCK CHEVY - 305 SMALL BLOCK 23º FLAT TOP

I'll have to have a look at these details in your build thread. I was planning to go somewhat budget (have I mentioned in this thread that I don't have a real job or a proper income?), but I can't hurt to look into it some.