Love the old car there. Wish I had a TII now.
Hafc Install Thread! (mpg Increase?!) (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter SS_Storm
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Given enough time STFT will always hover around 0% once the LTFT% has been achieved.
Adjusting the trucks so the LTFT% is 0 is a really bad idea. The two major influences on LTFT% is the altitude the vehicle is in and the air temp (density) at that time.
My truck has a LTFT% of +3 because I'm at sea level and others in higher elevation have LTFT% of -6%. This has been recorded on several trucks and I'm confident it can be relied on.
So targeting a specific value all the time with give you varied results. It would seem you need to read the LTFT% prior to the install and then calculate a %drop in it to achieve consistent results. And the only way to do this is to leave the MAF signal alone. It's the one single signal that you would need to ensure that the LTFT% that you end up with is valid.
Well said but your avatar is driving me nuts.
On a serious note somebody needs to take chances,take notes,tune and just give this a shot cause there is something to this. Call it snake water or what you wish but nothing was ever accomplished sitting on the interweb judging. I think before everybody accepts this someone needs to step up and throughly explain the happenings of this technology or whatever you wish to call it cause I do see locals of mine using it in gas motors and it does help their mpg/s but individuality they do not understand it or how it really works. I myself will get one in sept but my only concerns is like some others ...regulation into the motor, temperatures and how it affects the engine.
I DO UNDERSTAND THIS UNIT PRODUCES VERY LITTLE gas but it does produce some along with oxygen maybe that is why regulation into the motor is not a real concern.
I spoke with International months ago before this thread and several others has popped up on mud and a tech in the shop advised me alot of private truck owners(diesel) have been using this for YEARS with great success but insurance company's really frown on these devices.
So what my point is keep posting findings no matter how big nor little
Different application. But here is gas derived from the electrolysis of water used as a torch.
Watertorch.com the best Brown's Gas Technology in the world.
Watertorch.com the best Brown's Gas Technology in the world.
A company brought that to the school and showed it off...it works real well I might add.
sleeoffroad
Supporting Vendor
I thought that was the magic juju that made the fuel burn better. Now it does not do anything?
- Thread starter
- #328
Christo I was speaking in terms of power. I have not compared mileage between the too
Soo... you have it running on your cruiser and you're getting better milage or not so much?
Well, after several months of trying to get this damn HAFC system to work by reading the crappy instructions they give you, and the non-support Dutchman gives to those who won't pay $1000 to be officially trained, I FINALLY got the system working on my fathers truck.
Before installation he was getting 16 MPG. After the installation and a TON of tinkering he's getting 28 MPG.
Now it's only been working properly for 3 weeks. I was skeptical he'd see that kind of fuel mileage increase, but it is working.
However, I'm still skeptical of the longevity and reliability of the system. It seems like the way the fuel cell makes HHO gas is finicky at best...
The caustic solution mixture is hard to get right so there is no foaming, etc.
It was a hair pulling experience for me, but my father got his fuel mileage increase and he's happy, so I guess I'm happy.
I will wait a year and watch the performance of this system on his truck before I'd consider putting it on my own truck.
I will say one thing, I would not want to be a mechanic installing this thing on customers' vehicles, it's a huge hassle IMO.
Before installation he was getting 16 MPG. After the installation and a TON of tinkering he's getting 28 MPG.
Now it's only been working properly for 3 weeks. I was skeptical he'd see that kind of fuel mileage increase, but it is working.
However, I'm still skeptical of the longevity and reliability of the system. It seems like the way the fuel cell makes HHO gas is finicky at best...
The caustic solution mixture is hard to get right so there is no foaming, etc.
It was a hair pulling experience for me, but my father got his fuel mileage increase and he's happy, so I guess I'm happy.
I will wait a year and watch the performance of this system on his truck before I'd consider putting it on my own truck.
I will say one thing, I would not want to be a mechanic installing this thing on customers' vehicles, it's a huge hassle IMO.
Details man give us some details.
sleeoffroad
Supporting Vendor
What's his MPG without the Cell being active. That would tell you how much the cell is doing and how much all the tweaking is.
Yes, this is a 1999 GMC Sierra with a 4800 Vortec.
The fuel cell was the hardest thing to get working, and it's still not working the way they say it should.
Using a clamp on amp meter, I'm supposed to be getting 30 amp draw from the fuel cell.
To tweak this amp draw, you change the mixture of potassium hydroxide & distilled water. Now, we thought we had found the ratio. We got it to draw 27 amps. He ran that for like 3 days and then all of the sudden the fuel cell was kicking out foam and he sucked that into his throttle body and barely made it home one day.
After draining all the caustic solution and starting over, he kept adding caustic until he got foam again, and then removed some of the solution and added a bit of distilled water. However, after doing that we're only seeing a 11 amp draw, 1/3 of what it's supposed to be. yet, the truck is running the best it ever has, and he's getting the best mileage. It flies in the face of the 30 amps the ppl on the mechanics hotline keep saying you should be getting for using both sides of the fuel cell. 15 amps for one side (small engines) 30 amps when using both sides (v-8 engines)
I told my dad that is not the right reading, and it needs to be 30. He wants to run it as is because of how well the truck is running and the mileage he's getting. I'm worried that it's too leaned out, and not enough HHO is being made.
That's pretty much where we're at.
I don't want to run it without the fuel cell on, because that would run the engine even more lean. If he turns off the fuel cell, I have him re-wire the O2 sensors back to normal, and shutoff the switch circuit I made for the AIT & Coolant sensors.
We had the fuel cell drawing 30 amps for 3 days, then it crapped out. The best we can get now is 11 amp draw...
We towed a dump trailer with about 1000 lbs of steel in it yesterday, it had enough power.
So it's working, but not working to specifications...
There is no good way to determine how much HHO is being made other than looking at the amp draw. Also, you're supposed to reduce the flow through the MAF by 15%, and for GM's, they have not found a way to do that yet. First they told me a 5kOhm resistor between the MAF signal & ground would do it, but then they said that did not work for all GM's. So it's still a work in progress. I do not have an OBDII scanner to check anything to see what's going on. All I know is his mileage went from 16 to 28, which he's very happy with that.
The fuel cell was the hardest thing to get working, and it's still not working the way they say it should.
Using a clamp on amp meter, I'm supposed to be getting 30 amp draw from the fuel cell.
To tweak this amp draw, you change the mixture of potassium hydroxide & distilled water. Now, we thought we had found the ratio. We got it to draw 27 amps. He ran that for like 3 days and then all of the sudden the fuel cell was kicking out foam and he sucked that into his throttle body and barely made it home one day.
After draining all the caustic solution and starting over, he kept adding caustic until he got foam again, and then removed some of the solution and added a bit of distilled water. However, after doing that we're only seeing a 11 amp draw, 1/3 of what it's supposed to be. yet, the truck is running the best it ever has, and he's getting the best mileage. It flies in the face of the 30 amps the ppl on the mechanics hotline keep saying you should be getting for using both sides of the fuel cell. 15 amps for one side (small engines) 30 amps when using both sides (v-8 engines)
I told my dad that is not the right reading, and it needs to be 30. He wants to run it as is because of how well the truck is running and the mileage he's getting. I'm worried that it's too leaned out, and not enough HHO is being made.
That's pretty much where we're at.
I don't want to run it without the fuel cell on, because that would run the engine even more lean. If he turns off the fuel cell, I have him re-wire the O2 sensors back to normal, and shutoff the switch circuit I made for the AIT & Coolant sensors.
We had the fuel cell drawing 30 amps for 3 days, then it crapped out. The best we can get now is 11 amp draw...
We towed a dump trailer with about 1000 lbs of steel in it yesterday, it had enough power.
So it's working, but not working to specifications...
There is no good way to determine how much HHO is being made other than looking at the amp draw. Also, you're supposed to reduce the flow through the MAF by 15%, and for GM's, they have not found a way to do that yet. First they told me a 5kOhm resistor between the MAF signal & ground would do it, but then they said that did not work for all GM's. So it's still a work in progress. I do not have an OBDII scanner to check anything to see what's going on. All I know is his mileage went from 16 to 28, which he's very happy with that.
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sleeoffroad
Supporting Vendor
What is it going to help to monitor OBDII when all the sensors have been tampered with? You are just going to see a bunch of altered signals. What do you mean with wire the O2 sensors back to normal? What did you do to them?
Here is the Optimizer wiring diagram:
Optimizer Wiring
You intercept the O2 signals and change the voltage to force the vehicle to run leaner. This is why running the vehicle with the Optimizer setup, but the fuel cell turned off is not advisable... It will run too lean in that scenario.
The only circuit on the diagram you do not setup is the KAM circuit, as you want to utilize the adaptive RAM of the ECM. Basically the ECM learns how to run the engine with the Optimizer plugged in over time.
I need the OBDII scanner for before and after values. I need to know that the MAF gpm decreased 15%, and that the O2 sensor voltage is lower, forcing the engine to run leaner. The HHO gas makes the fuel/air mixture burn slower, therefore you need less fuel, so you can run leaner as far as the ECM is concerned. The Optimizer forces this leaner condition, because just dumping HHO into the air/fuel mixture without changing the signals accomplishes nothing in terms of using less gas.
Without a scanner, I'm running blind. I have no idea how much the values changed. You tune the system by taking the cover off the Optimizer and adjusting a POT while monitoring what they call the P6 voltage. That value is different for every make car. That is what tweaks the O2 voltage. It's basically an electronic rich/lean screw...
sleeoffroad
Supporting Vendor
Sorry, but this is getting real scary for me. Modifying one of the main inputs of the vehicle to control air fuel mixture and then hoping there is enough HHO gas to make sure you do not trash and engine is not for me.
I have asked in the past about the volume of HHO gas required but no answers were given.
I have asked in the past about the volume of HHO gas required but no answers were given.
It's not making enough HHO, his amp draw is too low. A good efficient cell will produce about 1 liter of HHO/min per 10 amp draw.
As far as the foaming goes is there a bubbler attached with a common tank to the cell itself?
What is a bubbler?
And like I said, it was drawing 27 amps then foamed all to hell without modifying the caustic. It ran for 3 days at 27 amps them foamed up... Now we can;t get it above 11 amps.
Believe me, I stressed this to my father on many occasions, he's willing to do it on his truck...
for a little perspective lets say it was operating at peak
efficiency and producing 3 litters of "HHO" a minute.
that amount of gas would contains .0216 MJ (.00598KwH)
of energy. that's the equivalent of .00072 liters of gasoline
or about one and a half drops....
