I think that Reffug just indicated that this should be that status thread ...until the data is posted.
Hafc Install Thread! (mpg Increase?!)
- Thread starter SS_Storm
- Start date
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I think that Reffug just indicated that this should be that status thread ...until the data is posted.
On one of the HAFC distributor's web sites they list this covalizer at $19.95 (+S&H) for a 16oz bottle. The web site claims (April 2008) that this treats 160 gallons of fuel. That would make it about $0.14/gallon.
-B-
Wrong Blake, a faster-hotter burning fuel will most likely burn a hole in the piston.
Blake, you need to rethink your fast burning fuel statement.
Good fuels burns Slower, Cooler, and more uniformly.
Ruben
Most likely melt the piston? At what point would this happen Ruben? Don't answer me here though. Start a new thread to warn people of the dangers of melting pistons when their engines continually inhale small amounts of water gas.
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Thank you for the support!
Without getting too deeply into the metals used and the chemical properties of available fuels, including even pure hydrogen, if the fuel mixture is leaned beyond a certain limit, the temps rise beyond the limits of the metal's tolerance. I have seen it all too many times. Excessively lean mixtures cause high temps that literally blow holes in pistons, the way that a torch cuts through steel. I have seen all too many cases where a simple intake leak causes one cylinder to run lean. The lean burn causes a hot combustion that can burn through an inch-thick aluminum piston crown in short order!
I spent too many years with Honda, the leader of the lean mixture, to have any real illusions. Honda has some incredible lean-burn systems in production cars. The result is that we had some really catastrophic engine failures. Entire model lines were subject to not only burned out pistons, but even to holes torched through iron cylinder walls by excessive combustion temps.
Mercedes has tested and driven a car that runs on creek water, by breaking the water down into hydrogen and oxygen. It burned the hydrogen and used the oxygen as a combustion booster. The technology was scrapped because it would severely deplete our water supply. The myth that a hydrogen and oxygen engine will emit an equal amount of water vapor was proven wrong.
There is no magic in energy creation. Energy must consume, and once consumed, it cannot be reclaimed.
It is certainly a valuable effort to find new ways to use fuels. But it is futile to return to areas that have been proven to be ineffectice or detrimental.
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Hey, everyone pisses on Shotts when he post shock travel numbers. We can ask questions about this as well, can't we?
I am trying to understand this. I watched the 30 minute video that is not worth the tape it was recorded on, presented by a man that was previously involved in a huge scam.
I think it this stays in tech, we can ask questions. Blake is installing these as a business (or at least for money) and has done the training from the company, so good or bad for him he should answer the questions.
I won't get personal with Blake, but I do want to understand this stuff more, and don't tell me it is secrets only revealed in special technician training, because that is utter BS.
I've got no problem with the tact you have been taking Christo. My comment was aimed at those who are not trying to understand so much as call BS and the like. I respect your knowledge of these rigs as I am sure everyone else does and have no problem with your trying to further your understanding.
Oh and shottz its totally different, he literally asks for it.................
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sleeoffroad
Supporting Vendor
As much as everyone else I would love to see the results. However, did you spend 30 minutes watching the video on the site? One can't help to come away from that with a WOW attitude with the level of pseudo science in it. So yes, I posted some things jokingly, but not personally directed at Blake , but now I want some answers. We could start another thread on this, but since Blake opened this I would like for the questions to stay here.
I would have been happy if Blake said, hey I bought this and installed it and this is what I found but now he is an installed and he is doing it for money. So this thread is a ways for them to try and convince people that this stuff works. It might not have stated that way, but it certainly is borderline infomercial right now. All we need is Billy Maes.
And I quote
There are a ton of questions asked in this thread that has not been answered or has been skirted. I would like to see them addressed. And on a business sense I would like to get my own truck working and make sure everything is OK before I embark on changing a whole fleet of cars. A 1994 80 is a lot simpler to deal with than a 2006 model of anything.
My gut feeling is that they are leaning the hell out of the truck and all the other gismo's is to try and not blow the motor up.
Some direct questions.
1 Why call it a vaporizer since it is impossible for that little heat exchanger to get the fuel close to a state of vapor. So this is the first BS.
2. Why baffle us with special magnetic aluminum. Where is the proof that this works.
3. What is the output of hydrogen and how is it regulated. How is it injected and controlled?
4. What signals does the optimizer interrupt. In the video they say that they do not do anything to the stock ECU or sensors, but they are clearly interrupting the signals. So what are they feeding the ECU ?
5. What are the HP and torque numbers? I know blake does not have access to a dyno easily (he could contact us and I can give him the details of the shop in Denver), but I am sure the parent company does. If we could do a pre and post dyno run just to prove a results for a couple of turbo installs, he should be able to do the same since he has a whole fleet of trucks lined up.
6. Consider the source. Have a look at this video. YouTube - Dennis Lee Free Electricity Humming Bird Sundance Generator Covers some other magic stuff. Does Dennis Lee have any credibility?
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Is that statement intended to be all encompassing?
If technologies that have been proven ineffective in the past were discarded out of hand then there are many technologies that would be non-existent today. Like the automobile for instance, hybrid technology, or even solar power.
I have not personally experienced a car increase its gas mileage from using water electrolysis and I understand that there may be problems with it. But to say forget about from the get go is premature. Why not explore? If "hydroxy boosters" are working to some extent then that is increased energy efficiency. If it burns pistons or valves then that is a problem, but I have not yet heard of where it has done this in an uncorrectable, inherent manner. Only the ire of speculation.
Of course its ok to be skeptical. I am skeptical, but I am also intrigued that there have purportedly been some real results. I am reserving judgment because I am curious and that is my choice. I will continue to watch SS and his progress and I would like for this technology to succeed. If it doesn't then it it will go away, but for now lets see.
That is what I had read years ago about internal combustion engines: the ideal is a slow, evenly burning fuel. This slower, even burning action is one aspect of burning fuel that improves as octane rating goes up. It's the lower octane fuels that have a higher chance of auto-igniting, and causing holes in pistons through shock force, and/or overly hot burning.
Someone should start "The official HAFC quesion & answer thread". Put all the questions and commentary there and let SS_Storm continue his updates here. He can post comments there as well without bogging down this thread.
There is obviously a lot of interest in the topic. At some point it would be nice not having it all lumped into this install thread.
There is obviously a lot of interest in the topic. At some point it would be nice not having it all lumped into this install thread.
Who would be answering questions? SS has said he is too busy and he is completely booked up doing HAFC tuning for the next 8 months. Blake is so busy he had to farm out the install of his O2 sensors. He has not had time to finish the HAFC tuning on his truck and he is motivated to complete the install because of the high price of fuel and the potential savings as well as the experience doing complicated installations.
I realize some will disagree but I seriously believe "The Official HAFC Q&A thread" is is more appropriate for Mud Chat. The reason is that owners of all Land Cruisers models are interested in saving fuel. Most 80-Series trucks are not OBD-II; only the 96 and 97 so that is not a reason to keep it in the 80 section.
-B-
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NLXTACY
Wits' End
I think my problem with this whole thing is that there is no NEW methods or experimenting. All I see happening is the same UNPROVEN kit being installed on another vehicle by an individual who has too much money and too much time. So what we all see time and time again is NOTHING proven and it allows everyone to come out and poke fun at it.
What needs to happen to staff some of the ridicule it now try something new. New methodology, new testing, new chemicals, new metals, new conditions, new SOMETHING!
People are trying to install this SAME kit on yet another vehicle and its doomed to failure and ridicule.
So do some actual experimentation. Adding this scam kit on an 80 is not experimenting. Do something different! Try something that has NOT failed over and over and yet repackaged and sold.
This would be THE single most interesting thread if someone actual took real chemistry and physics and experimented and looked to the forum members for feedback. For every single thread I have been on I was always excited to see the outcome. This is the first thread that I have been convinced, before the final results, that I have been had.
What needs to happen to staff some of the ridicule it now try something new. New methodology, new testing, new chemicals, new metals, new conditions, new SOMETHING!
People are trying to install this SAME kit on yet another vehicle and its doomed to failure and ridicule.
So do some actual experimentation. Adding this scam kit on an 80 is not experimenting. Do something different! Try something that has NOT failed over and over and yet repackaged and sold.
This would be THE single most interesting thread if someone actual took real chemistry and physics and experimented and looked to the forum members for feedback. For every single thread I have been on I was always excited to see the outcome. This is the first thread that I have been convinced, before the final results, that I have been had.
Aluminum melts at 660* C.
According to Wikipedia, Hydrogen burns between 560* C (auto-ignition) and
2800* C depending on the exact composition.
Add in lots of pressure and run lean, and any large quantity of hydrogen could spell trouble. What happens if that unmetered amount of water gas you dump into the intake all ends up in the 6th cylinder rather than being evenly distributed?
I've gone from wondering "how can so little 'water gas' make a difference" to wondering "how much 'water gas' does it take to blow a head gasket". That must be why their system only produces the small amount of water gas that it does.
Unfortunatly I think this thread has already turned into "The semi-unofficial HAFC question & answer thread".
As a newer member to the forum, thanks for the education and info... I do see 14-17 mpg with 87 octane at a mile above sea level.
- Thread starter
- #295
Slee says=
My gut feeling is that they are leaning the hell out of the truck and all the other gismo's is to try and not blow the motor up.
(Pretty much)
Some direct questions.
1 Why call it a vaporizer since it is impossible for that little heat exchanger to get the fuel close to a state of vapor. So this is the first BS.
Crappy name but it simply increases the fuel temp 15-20* from my testing with a digital infrared gun. I would not expect this to do ANYTHING but it does some how
2. Why baffle us with special magnetic aluminum. Where is the proof that this works.
not sure what you are talking about here but the fuel heater is a magnetic lining a line goes through with an aluminum sleeve around it threaded and capped with a nipple at either end
3. What is the output of hydrogen and how is it regulated. How is it injected and controlled?
I tune a 4 cylinder honda to 60 liters an hour and a larger displacement engine would get double that 120 liters an hour this is tuned by how much caustic (potassium hydroxide) you put in the water it aids the transfer of electrolysis process this is simply directly injected into the intake no metering.
4. What signals does the optimizer interrupt. In the video they say that they do not do anything to the stock ECU or sensors, but they are clearly interrupting the signals. So what are they feeding the ECU ?
o2 sensor 1 and 2
Air intake temp- kicked up normally to around 200* this is to retard your timing
Coolant temp- leaning it out increasing the temp the computer sees
than factory secrets for tuning=
add resistance to your MAF continue adding more and more resistance until you feel a power loss at that point back off 20% normally this ends up being about 240k ohms resistance in the cars I have done.
increase the intake air temp more- resistance on the signal wire continue adding resistance until loss of power than back off 20%
5. What are the HP and torque numbers? I know blake does not have access to a dyno easily (he could contact us and I can give him the details of the shop in Denver), but I am sure the parent company does. If we could do a pre and post dyno run just to prove a results for a couple of turbo installs, he should be able to do the same since he has a whole fleet of trucks lined up.
I dont even know of any tuner (hot rod) shops around here much less a dyno.
6. Consider the source. Have a look at this video. YouTube - Dennis Lee Free Electricity Humming Bird Sundance Generator Covers some other magic stuff. Does Dennis Lee have any credibility?
I dont trust Dennis lee, I had not even heard his name in the company until long after I went through training, I guess all he is in charge of is marketing but I dont know.
My gut feeling is that they are leaning the hell out of the truck and all the other gismo's is to try and not blow the motor up.
(Pretty much)
Some direct questions.
1 Why call it a vaporizer since it is impossible for that little heat exchanger to get the fuel close to a state of vapor. So this is the first BS.
Crappy name but it simply increases the fuel temp 15-20* from my testing with a digital infrared gun. I would not expect this to do ANYTHING but it does some how
2. Why baffle us with special magnetic aluminum. Where is the proof that this works.
not sure what you are talking about here but the fuel heater is a magnetic lining a line goes through with an aluminum sleeve around it threaded and capped with a nipple at either end
3. What is the output of hydrogen and how is it regulated. How is it injected and controlled?
I tune a 4 cylinder honda to 60 liters an hour and a larger displacement engine would get double that 120 liters an hour this is tuned by how much caustic (potassium hydroxide) you put in the water it aids the transfer of electrolysis process this is simply directly injected into the intake no metering.
4. What signals does the optimizer interrupt. In the video they say that they do not do anything to the stock ECU or sensors, but they are clearly interrupting the signals. So what are they feeding the ECU ?
o2 sensor 1 and 2
Air intake temp- kicked up normally to around 200* this is to retard your timing
Coolant temp- leaning it out increasing the temp the computer sees
than factory secrets for tuning=
add resistance to your MAF continue adding more and more resistance until you feel a power loss at that point back off 20% normally this ends up being about 240k ohms resistance in the cars I have done.
increase the intake air temp more- resistance on the signal wire continue adding resistance until loss of power than back off 20%
5. What are the HP and torque numbers? I know blake does not have access to a dyno easily (he could contact us and I can give him the details of the shop in Denver), but I am sure the parent company does. If we could do a pre and post dyno run just to prove a results for a couple of turbo installs, he should be able to do the same since he has a whole fleet of trucks lined up.
I dont even know of any tuner (hot rod) shops around here much less a dyno.
6. Consider the source. Have a look at this video. YouTube - Dennis Lee Free Electricity Humming Bird Sundance Generator Covers some other magic stuff. Does Dennis Lee have any credibility?
I dont trust Dennis lee, I had not even heard his name in the company until long after I went through training, I guess all he is in charge of is marketing but I dont know.
sleeoffroad
Supporting Vendor
So how do you read the air fuel ratio's to make sure you are not hurting the engine?
So it pretty much does nothing. Based on the video, they tell you that it vaporizes the fuel, "Becuase it has been proven that vaporized fuel burns better"
That is from the video. They imply it is aluminum but it is magnetic. Since they state that normally Aluminum is not magnetic and theirs are. They even have a patent on it.
So how does that translate as a percentage of hydrogen added to the fuel? I previously showed that the truck will use 4500L of air at 2000 RMP per minute. That is 270 000L of air per hour. What does this 60lL or even 120L of hydrogen contributing. Also how much water does it take to produce 120L if hydrogen gas?
So it doesn't matter if you run 1500 rpm or 3000 the suppy is the same, yet the demand of the motor is vastly different. So how is the demand monitored or controlled? What happens with a tuned motor is the system runs out of water or does not produce enough magix mojo?
So the claim that they leave the truck alone and do not mess with any of the signals are completely untrue. They keep saying that the optimizer is a special computer and they do not in any way interfere with the engine managment. They even say they will go to bat for you have warantee issues. I bet you any car dealer will deny any drivetrain claim if you end up screwing up pretty much all the inputs to the ECU. So that part of the presentation is BS as well.
Screwing with all the sensors as you are doing is treading on dangerous ground. I hope you have liability coverage for when the s(#&$ hits the fan on these motors you are tuning.
There is a 4wheel drive dyno in Denver. They are called Mac Performance. You can set them up to do pre and post runs and also monitor your hp and torque numbers. Also your fuel ratios.
You do not trust him, but you trust the BS he is preaching? If I had a legit product, I doubt I woiuld get him to sell it for me.
Just for the record I am not bashing you, just asking very simple common sense questions that comes to mind.
- Thread starter
- #297
I have never watched the video you talked about... Sounds retarded, sorry you wasted your time with it.
Just got a call form the shop regarding my truck. they won't change my 02 sensor without dropping my exhaust. kinda retarded. So im gonna attack it myself with some vice grips when I get a chance :-/
Just got a call form the shop regarding my truck. they won't change my 02 sensor without dropping my exhaust. kinda retarded. So im gonna attack it myself with some vice grips when I get a chance :-/
I've been reading this thread for a while, "sadly", but can't everyone just let him post up his finds.
He is experimenting something on his own rig not your rig, he is not trying to sell it to you, he is just trying to do a favor, give him a break.
no kidding. bunch of witch hunters around here...
sleeoffroad
Supporting Vendor
Isn't this the kit you are installing?
The Revolution is in your hands.....Hydro-Assist Fuel Cell
If not, I apologize, but the link is on the main page of this site.
The Revolution is in your hands.....Hydro-Assist Fuel Cell
If not, I apologize, but the link is on the main page of this site.
