Just a thought, when I spoke to the guys at DT Headers after my install, they said that Toyota has very few problems with headers in general (compared with Jeep and others). The LC cracked manifold is unusual. He also said that Toyota cranks the bolts down so damn tight at the factory that they are VERY difficult to remove, but probably cause less problems for them long term. A good socket set and plenty of PB Blaster is needed. He said that Toyota does this probably to prevent leaks but it is hell for trying to get those headers off. I bet your shop just finally got fed up and pulled harder to finally get them to break free. Good luck tomorrow.
Group Buy - 100 Series Headers (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter uzj100
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Just a thought, when I spoke to the guys at DT Headers after my install, they said that Toyota has very few problems with headers in general (compared with Jeep and others). The LC cracked manifold is unusual. He also said that Toyota cranks the bolts down so damn tight at the factory that they are VERY difficult to remove, but probably cause less problems for them long term. A good socket set and plenty of PB Blaster is needed. He said that Toyota does this probably to prevent leaks but it is hell for trying to get those headers off. I bet your shop just finally got fed up and pulled harder to finally get them to break free. Good luck tomorrow.
It doesn't sound like we have any DIY'ers yet on the install, but in regards to the Lexus Tech post regarding the swivel socket being the "kitten's britches" for this job, I wonder if these would work?
Sears Link
These look too deep:
Swivel Sockets
On the shorter side there's this, but they look too short.
NT Short Sockets
Sears Link
These look too deep:
Swivel Sockets
On the shorter side there's this, but they look too short.
NT Short Sockets
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Also, in getting prepped for the upgrade, looking at the intake side as well. What's the verdict on the K&N FIPK?
K&N FIPK
or just a K&N panel filter?
K&N Panel Filter
Any real-world performance dif between the two?
Looks like Loud (what hasn't he tried?
) tried one but removed it many moons ago? I don't foresee ever getting water high enough to be a problem. Nor do I ever foresee getting a snorkel.
Finally, perhaps bamachem's setup is the best?
K&N FIPK
or just a K&N panel filter?
K&N Panel Filter
Any real-world performance dif between the two?
Looks like Loud (what hasn't he tried?
) tried one but removed it many moons ago? I don't foresee ever getting water high enough to be a problem. Nor do I ever foresee getting a snorkel.Finally, perhaps bamachem's setup is the best?
My guess is the deck plate mod is the cheapest and very effective way to increase intake flow. I had evidence that K&N was letting fine dusk get by, so I went back to paper (improved filtration). Plus the filter oil gets the MAF sensor gunked up faster. My experience is that making a hole in the air filter box (I removed the elbow inside the fender of my tacoma instead of doing deck plate, same result except a little cooler temp) did more for performance that the K&N.
I do not know what the general Mud opinion is of 4 wheel parts is, but I will not be doing business there again. I went in and they claimed that they had quoted me either 480 or 640 (not the 600 they actually claimed) and that the 640 was if everything did not go smoothly. What they actually said was 600 if they had to remove the intake manifold (they did not). Then the service writer claimed that he told me on thursday when getting permission to possibly break the studs that the price would be 640. I told him that he had npot, he had tried to sell me on a bunch of other services if they had to start taking apart the motor ($2700 worth, but the increases were only if a stud broke and they had to get deeper into the job. I told him I would pay 480, like we agreed, or I would pay $700 (the new final bill) and file a suit on monday. They got real nasty and demanding before changing the bill to 480. Owner/manager even suggested he knew my boss and would be calling him.
I don't have a problem with more money for more work, but they merely completed the job contracted for at 480, I was not paying any more. So F em.
I don't have a problem with more money for more work, but they merely completed the job contracted for at 480, I was not paying any more. So F em.
As to the performance gain, it is noticeable, the power band seems much smoother and throttle response at all speeds is clearly improved. The gains seem concentrated towards the middle range, with a little less off the line grunt than I would have liked, but the 40-80 transition is very much improved. Noise is much better, my DS manifold was cracked about 3/4 of the way around, I did not have a "tick" so much as I had a "blat" and the Blat is gone.
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What is the deck plate mod?
sleeoffroad
Supporting Vendor
The lesson for other people here are to make sure the estimate is for a fixed price for the install (in which case you as the shop eat the time if things take longer), or an estimate of possible time it takes, but final invoice will be based on time and materials.
We are pretty clear when we quote people. Either it is $ dollars, or we estimate it will be x hours, but could be more or less.
Are you saying there is a little less low end/rpm torque with the headers? Or less relative gains at this band than you had hoped as compared to the stock manifolds?
@ Slee, I would have had no problem if he had said they wanted to increase the cost because of the difficulty, but the risk for them at that point was that i would just tell them to bag the whole deal and gimme my truck back. I asked twice about the cost and was told the same thing each time by two different service guys. When I came back in to see the bolts, I expected them to either re-estimate the job up or upsell me for more services, they did the upsell but did not increase the estimate. The presence of rust on a 10 year old truck in cleveland is not a surprise, it is a constant. I feel like they bid low to get me in there, then bid super high (2700) to get me worried, then came in at +50% with the hope that I would be so happy it was not 2700 that I would gladly pay 700. I guess I just don't manipulate well.
@ Spresso, there is a noticeable gain in low end torque, decreasing the need to go WOT when having to turn into traffic on an uphill, but the difference is less noticeable than it is at the 30 mph to 80 mph range, that is a much faster and smoother evolution than it used to be. i think that the rather large leak in my DS manifold may have been there since i bought it, so I have never experienced a properly exhausted LC. I am happy with the results, evne though it looks like one of my downstream O2 sensors is loose.
Slee, I guess an important part of this for me is that I never knew they had an hourly rate until the bill was presented. The Toyota dealer near my office bills its techs at 90 and hour, the guy at 4w parts was at 80 and hour. GIven the minor difference, I would have gone with the dealer for the extra 10 bucks.
sleeoffroad
Supporting Vendor
I think the key is communication from both sides. I just wanted to post so people can be clear when they go into a shop to do this. A header on a 100 series is going to be new to anyone since these were just made. Make sure both parties understand what is quoted and how it works. Ask questions. Sometimes people ask for an estimate, and that is all it is, an estimate of how much it will be, but don't realize it can change. There is a difference in an estimate and quote. However there are also laws re: autowork on how much an estimate can be exceeded before permission has to be obtained from the owner to exceed it.
If we bid the job, I would have given the rate we charge for manifolds with the provision that it could be more since we never had done the headers. That is unless we have prior experience.
For suspensions we have flat rate install prices. Some you make time, some you loose time. Trucks from the east coast should always have a rust premium. They are a PITA to work on.
sleeoffroad
Supporting Vendor
Except the dealer might not have been willing to install the header. Catch 22.
Also, in getting prepped for the upgrade, looking at the intake side as well. What's the verdict on the K&N FIPK?
K&N FIPK
or just a K&N panel filter?
K&N Panel Filter
Any real-world performance dif between the two?
Looks like Loud (what hasn't he tried?
Finally, perhaps bamachem's setup is the best?
I'm VERY pleased with the results of the deck plate installation. It really makes a nice difference in the responsiveness of the truck. I'm seriously considering a set of these headers to top it off. I was going to do a full leather replacement, but in reality, it just needs a restoration instead of replacement. If I do the restore, I will have enough $ left over for headers, and then some...
Rust premium sounds fair to me.
I just picked up my truck around 11:00am today instead of yesterday at noon.
Even in the west coast, the mechanic had a great diffculty removing the bolts so the penetration liquid was used. He said he had to diconnected the steering linkage and lift the engine quite a bit so to gain some clearance for his tools to tightened the bolts especailly on the driver side.
See my photo of original driver side header that showed the crack which is about 40 percent all the way around the tube.
Original cost estimate: $360 to 460 - 3 to 4 hours labor
Actual cost estimate: $960 - 8 hours labor
For some reason, he put a discount of $360 so I ended up paying $600.
My truck seems to accelerate a bit faster because of my lighter weight due to my thinner wallet.
Even in the west coast, the mechanic had a great diffculty removing the bolts so the penetration liquid was used. He said he had to diconnected the steering linkage and lift the engine quite a bit so to gain some clearance for his tools to tightened the bolts especailly on the driver side.
See my photo of original driver side header that showed the crack which is about 40 percent all the way around the tube.
Original cost estimate: $360 to 460 - 3 to 4 hours labor
Actual cost estimate: $960 - 8 hours labor
For some reason, he put a discount of $360 so I ended up paying $600.
My truck seems to accelerate a bit faster because of my lighter weight due to my thinner wallet.
