Grid Tie Solar Photovoltaic System Install (1 Viewer)

[jonharis]

Already posted in chat but I should have just come straight here.

Does anyone else have a grid tie solar PV system? We just had one installed last week. It was quite the process selecting an installer, researching the financing options and learning how it all worked.

The long and the short of it is our system will pay itself off in 6-7 years, adds considerable resale value and marketability to my home and will continue producing 100% of our electricity for the next 20+ years.

Current purchase or lease programs in Colorado at lease make it a no-brainer. If you own your home and plan on staying and don't have full shade you would be stupid not to consider a solar install.





Questions?

Post up your systems and experiences too!

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Payback in 6-7 years is great. What was your final net cost per watt after rebates and financing?
Where are you located in Colorado?

 

[jonharis]

Hey Phil-

Let me break it down so others can see. I am in western Colorado. My utility provider is Xcel Energy. Every State, County, Electricity Provider is different.

Total System cost for 7.2kw system. (this is larger than the average home by 2-3kw) = ~$30,900

Xcel Solar Reward upfront cash rebate = -$7,200

Federal Tax Credit (30%) = -$7,110

Total cost after upfront rebates, $23,700

Renewable Energy Credits ($0.11/kw for 10 years) $7,110

Total System cost $16,590.

Now assuming my current electricity consumption and the estimated increase in electricity cost, my payoff will be 6-7 years. Assuming zero increase in electricity cost (not gonna happen) I will pay the system off in ~12 years.

If I sell the home sooner a large portion of tha tcost will be absorbed in increased resale value of the home. The Appraisal Institute is finally starting to quantify the value of a PV system. I could potentially sell the home in as little as 2-5 years and still recoup my investment.

 

[grizzlygibbs]

Yearly maintenance? How do they work with snow? I imagine it melts off pretty quick just curious if heat tape or gutter heaters are required. Are batteries required for backup?

 

[jonharis]

Yearly maintenance? How do they work with snow? I imagine it melts off pretty quick just curious if heat tape or gutter heaters are required. Are batteries required for backup?

Great questions. Solar PV has no moving parts or fluids. There is literally no yearly maintenance. In the winter snow will melt off panels faster than the roof because they are black and get hot. I am devising a broom on a long handle so that I can sweep them off from the ground. It is recommended to hose them off every few months too which I will do when I clean my gutters. No heat tape or gutter heaters are used.

With this type of system a batter backup is not required. What happens is that I sell energy to Xcel during the day and I buy it back at night. The net result is a zero cost. The negative o this system is if the grid goes black so do I. A battery backup can be added for another $10k or so but I have trust (maybe too much) in Xcel to keep providing power for the foreseeable future. It's just not zombie apocalypse proof.

The panels and inverters have 25 year full replacement warrantees. The install is warranted against leaks.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Total System cost &16,590. You mentioned financing options does your cost include interested? I see interest a trade off with power company rate increase. I also think one should factor in most salesman bold claim of the ability to produce consistent peak power.

Extra power generated is it given back in equal KWH or at a wholesale dollar rate?

In your video you can see that this time of year you have some shading, what did they estimate your percentage of loss at?

 

[jonharis]

Good points and questions to bring up with a salesperson. All of which I did. The production of my system is guaranteed in writing. Most installers use a program (online calculator) called PV Watts to determine production. Emphase micro inverters have per panel monitoring so you can see realtime power production to determine if it is operating at design efficiency.

As far as financing goes, we were fortunate enough to be able to pay the entire balance out if pocket. Installers also typically have no or low interest financing options available with playoffs ranging between 2-10 years.

Another option we explored that I highly recommend is a solar lease. This program allows you to put panels on your home for zero upfront cost. You eliminate your electrical cost and your lease payment is lower than your electricity bill. They have options for buyouts, prepayments and payment escalators. You don't get the energy credits, that's how the lease company makes their money. But you get a locked in electricity rate that is 5-25% less than your current bill.

The major requirement of a solar lease was a credit score above 720.

 

[jonharis]

Here is a good appraisal institute member document.

http://howsolarworks.1bog.org/files/2010/03/black_solar_home_value.pdf

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

IMO stay away from lease programs as they do not have a long term investment into your roof.

 

[jonharis]

IMO stay away from lease programs as they do not have a long term investment into your roof.

I mostly agree with you buy still think they are a good option for those with no upfront cash. Also lease programs are different in every state.

One of 3 things will happen at the end of a lease term.

1. You will be offered a fair market buyout of the panels. You can imagine how inexpensive this would be for a 20 year old system.

2. You can opt to have the panels removed.

3. The leasing company will just leave the panels in as is where is condition. Think if how the tech and efficiency of solar will have increased. The company probably won't have any economic interest in removing the system. If this happens you will effectively get the system for the same cost as a full purchase or even slightly lower.

What I would recommend is staying away from a company that pushes you in one direction or another. Choose a company the will put all options out there and let you make the decision.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

It would be good info if you post up the 1st 30 days of KWH produced.
What have you been producing per 24hrs so far?
This should be close to the lowest performing month of the year. Performance should only get better from here. Then post up the month of June for comparison.

How do you receive excessed power produced back?

 

[KLF]

Huh.

I worked with a guy that had a PV system installed on his house a few years ago. He's an Enviromental Research guy, so it was more of a conscience project. He estimates now that he's had some real data to work with that it will never pay for itself. I don't know what the expenses are that he's incurring, but I do know that the panels aren't as efficient as they were spec'd.

He also has a collector system for domestic hot water generation, and he's had good luck with that. Still, it's not for everyone, you have to understand how they work and keep an eye on it. It's not something you can turn on and forget about.

 

[jonharis]

It would be good info if you post up the 1st 30 days of KWH produced.
What have you been producing per 24hrs so far?
This should be close to the lowest performing month of the year. Performance should only get better from here. Then post up the month of June for comparison.

How do you receive excessed power produced back?

I'll do that Phil. The system is active but not quite hoked up to xcel yet. I am currently generating ~5.0kw at noon on a mostly sunny day. The great thing about Enphase is that it offers per panel instantaneous monitoring. I should be able to easily see what my production is and if the overall efficiency is up to the guaranteed production.

Here is a brief video showing the Enlighten monitoring system. It's a truly transparent system. Xcel also installs a production meter which will allow me to compare the data.





If I produce more energy than I use, it gets banked to my account and I can use it at a later date. i.e. I will produce an energy surplus during the summer that I can use during the winter or a rainy day.

As you saw on the timelapse in the first post, I have some shading issues. Enphase is a good match for homes where that is an issue.

Here is a good example of a large system with per panel monitoring.
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/Fnuj10367

Here is another video about Enphase

 

[jonharis]

Huh.

I worked with a guy that had a PV system installed on his house a few years ago. He's an Enviromental Research guy, so it was more of a conscience project. He estimates now that he's had some real data to work with that it will never pay for itself. I don't know what the expenses are that he's incurring, but I do know that the panels aren't as efficient as they were spec'd.

He also has a collector system for domestic hot water generation, and he's had good luck with that. Still, it's not for everyone, you have to understand how they work and keep an eye on it. It's not something you can turn on and forget about.

KLF,
There are hundreds of factors that go into how much energy a system will actually produce.

Physically, latitude, array tilt and azimuth , shading climate and altitude all affect performance.

Financially, current utility and government rebates can vary payback times by many years.

Technologically, panel and inverter efficiency and system design all play a role in actual output.

A solar thermal system is much more maintenance intensive due to fluids and pumps and potential for leaks. In Colorado, there are no current incentives for thermal/hot water. It was not cost effective for me to go that route. In the future I will and have allocated roof space (to the right of the panels on the video) for solar thermal.

I oversized my system as much as allowable by Xcel because I intend on adding a hot tub and eventually an electric vehicle to the mix. I'm looking long term with my overall system goals.

 

[Ebag333]

I found this interesting:

Mapping Solar Grid Parity | Energy Self Reliant States

Now that's unsubsidized solar, so it's not apples to apple for this. But still interesting.

For most place solar is still quite a few years away from paying for itself in any reasonable time frame. I'm guessing it's going to be another 5-10 years for where I live. It's still a good option for areas that get tons of sun though.

 

[jonharis]

One of the large challenges we will face in the coming years is that the current grid is only capable of handling a finite number of grid ties. With everyone producing during teh day and no one at night it will be a challenge to develop storage technologies, and different power plants. current power plants can not ramp up/down production effectively or efficiently.

A note on incentives:
5-6 years ago the preincentivized cost of solar was $8-$10. now it's $4-$5. As cost continues to drop so will incentives until as the above poster stated, it will be cost effective at a zero incentive rate. But that does not mean that the utility provider will allow someone to tie in.

Batteries will continue getting less expensive and more efficient and off grid will be more economical.

 

[grizzlygibbs]

Thanks for answering my questions concerning maintenance. That was what I was thinking (concerning the maint. of cleaning and snow removal/melting). This is something that I will be looking into when we are financially able to purchase. My county has incredible power rates and they would actually pay me to have a system like this in place through the SNAP program put on by our PUD. Looking forward to reading more about this.

 

[jonharis]

Solar panels in snow.

 

[alia176]

I'm in the process of installing a 6kw grid tie system by placing the PV panels on top of a deck. The system will go up in two phases: first phase will be to build the deck cover structure, second phase will be the installation of PV panels/inverter/wiring/etc. Phase one is just about done, hoping to call for final inspection in the next month or so. The PV panels will be the roof of the deck - no shingles, plywood or any other typical roofing materials. When you look up, you'll see the 2x6 rafters and PV panels. This roof will meet the same snow and wind load as a typical roof in our area

I thought about installing this system on the roof of the house but wasn't sure if the roofing company would warranty the roof. Additionally, my south facing deck needs a cover anyway, so this seemed like the logical choice.

I was able to procure 24 sharp panels and a 6kw SMA inverter at a killer price (old stock, otherwise, this project would have been rather difficult to finance. Wiring and other tidbits were procured through work (I'm in a similar line of work). The entire project is being handled by me so it's very slow going! Next week the plan is to take the electrical test at our county permitting office and then submit the solar wiring plans.

Solar PV systems are not understood well my many county agencies as they try to apply the same code that are used for AC systems so that can be challenging. DC systems is a whole different animal as you can imagine. However, NEC code book spells out the PV requirements nicely so that's a big help for the DIY'er. Assuming you're good at deciphering NEC code!

The local utility company has the last word in putting your system on line. Their primary focus is to make sure that you don't system doesn't produce power and injure their workers miles away from your house when the grid is down and they're working on the power lines. Look up "islanding" on wikipedia for more info.

Solar panels and inverters are becoming more efficient by the year while getting less costly so my plan it to upgrade the system slowly as costs go down. As long as the infrastructure is in place, any panels and inverters can be used.

If I had unlimited $$$, I'd be going for PV/T (pv with thermal) panels for PV energy and water or air heating. My guess is that in about five years, I may end up going that route.

Due to the fact that our local power company has been filling their "green" energy production by large scale solar and wind farms, the payback to the tiny customers like me is on a decreasing path every quarter. I got in when it was $0.08/kwh and I have that contract price until June 2012. My motivation was not to make money but just to break even every month.

Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[jonharis]

Great post. Good to see someone else out there doing it. What state are you in and how are the rebates there. Let's see some pics!