Got stranded at Wally World

[skidplate]

Didn't read the whole thread, but I had very similar battery drain problems. I just knew there was something major wrong. Finally found that the hot wire for my radio had the insulation worn off on a very small section where it went through the fire wall. The radio was fused, but the fuse didn't blow. A 10 cent grommet and a splice of wire cured my problems. Look for the obvious stuff first.

 

[Slow Left]

Part of what might be giving confusing readings previously is that you had the dial set for amps when the lead was inserted into the volts hole. The red lead must be moved when you switch from volts to amps.

Juggernaught, just to clarify, on this particular multimeter, it looks like he did have the red lead correctly connected to the multimeter for 200m DCA measurements.

For the 4 DCA measurements (200u, 2000u, 20m, and 200m) within the green area on the dial, the red lead connects to the slot in the multimeter where the green arrow is pointing.

For the 10 A (fused) measurment within the red area on the dial, the red lead connects to the dedicated slot in the multimeter where the red arrow is pointing. The only time the red lead is connected to this slot is when taking Current measurements on the order of ~1 to 10 Ampere...when you aren't sure that you can expect the current to be less than 200 mA and you want the replaceable fuse to protect the circuity on the meter.

 

[WhompinFJ]

Hey sorry guys I've been fishing, but anyways I took the battery into Oreillys and they held it overnight to do some testing and charge it fully, they told me that everything was good on it. But I really do want to get a yellow top optima, had really good luck with those

 

[hj 60]

Any start battery that is drawn below 80% is damaged, so if the horn is not even functioning anymore that battery has had a severe blow to the lead plates but if you buy a new battery now it will also drain and be destroyed.
So first do the cheap meter test to fix the drain, then might buy new battery.
I think the world is waiting for a picture ! (not a fish)

 

[Slow Left]

Hey sorry guys I've been fishing

Nice. Fishing breaks are an important part of wrenching on these trucks...if the fishing's good...

I took the battery into Oreillys and they held it overnight to do some testing and charge it fully, they told me that everything was good on it.

Did they run the 'Conductance' test? If not, which tests did they run on the battery?

But I really do want to get a yellow top optima, had really good luck with those

So first do the cheap meter test to fix the drain, then might buy new battery.

If the battery fails the 'Conductance' test or if you decide to get a new battery anyway, it might be a good idea to finish the 'parasitic draw' troubleshooting on the old battery first, then after you have fixed that, install the new battery.

 

[WhompinFJ]

I plan on getting a new battery with my first paycheck, I'm really going to try and baseline my car before I jump into the mods I want to do.

 

[Slow Left]

I'm with you on that...I take the same approach on my rig and address the mechanical/performance stuff first before moving on to the mods...

But in this case, you might find it helpful to use the results of these two tests (the 'Conductance' test on the battery and the 'parasitic draw' test on the wiring) to help decide whether or not you really need a new battery...although I'm not trying to tell you how to spend your money.

Are there no local parts stores that offer this type of Conductance battery testing? ...or are you still waiting to get your battery and the test results back from O'Reilly?

What's the manufacturing date on the AC Delco battery that is currently installed?

 

[WhompinFJ]

The ac delco is from 2013, and I have not yet had a chance today to call around and see who can do a conductance test. I'm pretty set on a new battery anyways, ac delco has a pretty poor reputation with my family.

 

[Slow Left]

Understood.

The only reason why I keeping asking about the Conductance test results, is that other common battery tests (like the Voltage and Load tests) can be misleading (provide false positives). As HJ60 alludes, these car batteries are built for starting the engine...delivering a large amount of power (over 1 kW...which is 1 kilo Watt or 1000 Watts) of power over a short period of time...and the Conductance test seems best suited to tell whether or not the battery is still able to do that job.

It might be that O'Reilly is doing Conductance tests on the battery, but the only way to know is to ask them to explain the principle to you behind they run their test(s). Then, from what you have read yourself on Conductance/Battery tests, you can either be convinced or not that the results of the test are telling you the truth about the condition of the battery.

 

[WhompinFJ]

Called advanced auto, autozone, Napa, and Oreillys. And they only do a full charge and a load test. A personal conductance test meter is out of the picture so I am just going to focus on the parasitic draw now, and in 2 weeks get a new battery

 

[Slow Left]

I'll give a shot at trying to lay out the Principles of Direct Current (DC) Electricity to help you build an intuition about what is going on inside the battery and also on the circuits that run off the battery.

I'll build the story in terms of:

Behavior of Charged Particles (Electrons and Ions)

Potential Energy (PE) and Kinetic Energy (KE)

If MUD spots a mistake/misleading concept, please feel free to address it.

 

[2mbb]

I really hate to jump in the middle here, but I think what was shown in post 55 for measuring current is close but still not correct. The red lead to the multimeter needs to be connected to where the electrons are flowing "from" (the negative cable) and the black lead is connected to where the electrons are flowing "to" (the negative post on the battery). This will give a reading of positive (greater than zero amps). The way it is shown in the picture will measure negative (below zero) amps, and I'm not sure that multimeter will actually read negative amps.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/attachments/image-jpg.1103852/

 

[Slow Left]

I really hate to jump in the middle here, but I think what was shown in post 55 for measuring current is close but still not correct. The red lead to the multimeter needs to be connected to where the electrons are flowing "from" (the negative cable) and the black lead is connected to where the electrons are flowing "to" (the negative post on the battery). This will give a reading of positive (greater than zero amps). The way it is shown in the picture will measure negative (below zero) amps, and I'm not sure that multimeter will actually read negative amps.

https://forum.ih8mud.com/attachments/image-jpg.1103852/

Yes, in theory the red lead should be attached to the neg battery cable and the black lead to the neg battery post, but I think it would depend on how the meter is taking the measurement, whether or not the polarity of the terminals matters in being able to take the measurement.

And if it shows a negative current? The absolute value of the current is what matters to identify that current is flowing (leaking) when it shouldn't be.

I'm not sure have the terminals reversed will harm the meter as long as the magnitude of the current is within range for the setting on the tool.

Here is a meter measuring a negative current:

 

[Slow Left]

...which actually is a great lead into...

Charges

Opposite charges ( + and - ) attract…because they want to reduce their energy state (Thermodynamics) and do so by canceling out each others charge when the join together.

In physics, (-) charged electrons are attracted to (+) charged protons and vice-verse…forming atoms

In chemistry, partial (δ-) charges on atoms are attracted to partial (δ+) charges on other atoms (and vice-verse)…bonding together atoms to form molecules or (-) charged ions are attracted to (+) charged ions (and vice-verse)…forming complex molecules.

Electricity is a phenomenon as a result of the movement (behavior) of charged particles.

 

[Slow Left]

Potential Energy (PE) and Kinetic Energy (KE)

Can relate PE and KE in DC electrical circuits to PE and KE of stored water in mountain range.

The energy stored in the snow pack or glacier at the top of a mountain is potential energy. The higher the mountain (the greater the Voltage) and/or the more snow (the greater the battery capacity)…then the greater the PE.

When the snow melts and flows as water down the mountain, the flowing water is kinetic energy. The wider the channel (the lower the Resistance) and the greater volume of water flowing (the more Current)….then the greater the KE.

When the water reaches the lake in the valley below, there is no longer any more PE nor KE.



A Voltage (V) is created by the separation of (+) and (-) charges.

(NOTE: The original designation that the (+) charged side is considered to be at a higher potential than the (-) charged side was arbitrary…but by convention, we continue to designate them as such)


A Current (I) is created by the flow of charge.

In DC circuits, current flows in a single direction….and it flows AGAINST the flow of electrons. So since electrons flow from (-) potential towards (+) potential, then current flows in the opposite direction from a (+) potential to a negative (-) potential.


Resistance (R) is the resistance to the flow of charge.

 

[WhompinFJ]

I just learned about the types of energies this past year in my AP chemistry class

 

[Slow Left]

Ohm’s Law for DC Circuits

V = I x R

For DC circuit on your truck: V = 12 Volts

So, if V is constant, then when a device (like the starter motor for example) needs to draw a large amount of Current (I), then you must decrease Resistance (R) …and this is done by using a thicker (lower gauge number) wire.

So, mathematically, V is constant (12 V) and I and R are inversely proportional to each other…if I goes up in value, then R must go down in value (and vice versa)…because V is constant (12 V) and the product of I x R is equal to V.

NOTE: American Wire Gauge (AWG) convention assigns higher numbers to skinnier wires and lower numbers to thicker wires…so a 0 gauge wire is a fat wire (used for welding or other high current applications) and a 16 gauge wire is skinny…like the wires you see in the wire harness for the lights etc.

There is a simple tool you can buy that will measure the diameter of the wire and tell you what gauge it is.

 

[Slow Left]

I just learned about the types of energies this past year in my AP chemistry class

Awesome. So this is old hat for you then.

The reason I'm trying to boil it down is to attempt to give a simple explanation behind:

1) the different types of tests the Auto parts stores say they can do/can't do on the battery
2) as a foundation for better understanding how to take electrical measurements (my mistakes aside...)

 

[Slow Left]

Battery

A battery stores power by separating charge in the form of chemical molecules in relation to metal plates (aka electrodes).

The great the amount of charge separated, the greater the PE. So larger batteries usually have more cells therefor can separate a larger total amount of charge therefore provide more power.

When you close a circuit that is connected off of the positive and negative battery electrodes, the ions in the battery fluid flow towards the electrodes of the opposite charge…creating a current.

How easily they flow is measured by a type of resistance inside the battery called impedance (Z). The lower the Impedance, the more current can flow and the more KE the battery can put out.

Impedance is similar to DC Resistance, but has two additional components to it. Those two components are captured in the quantity called Reactance (X).

Z = R + iX

Where Reactance (X) has a Capacitive and an Inductive component and mathematically i is the imaginary number equal to the square root of negative one.


Load test only measures internal Resistance (R) and not Impedance (Z) of the battery…it doesn’t tell you anything about what is going on with those two additional Impedance components:

Conductance test measures Impedance, but doesn’t give you information about the Reactance components of X

And this fancy test (which I never heard of before) called Electro-Chemical Impedance Spectroscopy (EIS) provides information of all components of Impedance (Z): Resistance and Reactance:

This is the website I got those images from...and the best explanation I found giving an explanation of how the tests are different:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/why_do_different_test_methods_provide_dissimilar_readings

 

[WhompinFJ]

Ready to get the testing going, and I got some gator clips