- Thread starter
- #61
Haha. I don't feel bad for the meter at all! It's just harbor after all, I feel bad about my self-embarrassment! I've seemed like I know nothing about cars today!
Got stranded at Wally World
- Thread starter WhompinFJ
- Start date
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No need to feel embarrassed...here is what Miyamoto Musashi wrote on the 'topic of learning':
"The Great Learning speaks of consummating knowledge and perfecting things. Consummating knowledge means knowing the principles of everything that people in the world know. Perfecting things means that when you know the principle of everything thoroughly, then you know everything and can do everything. When there is nothing more to know, there is nothing you cannot do either. When you do not know the principle, nothing at all comes to fruition.
In all things, uncertainty exists because of not knowing. Things stick in your mind because of being in doubt. When the principle is clarified, nothing sticks in your mind. This is called consummating knowledge and perfecting things. Since there is no longer anything sticking in your mind, all your tasks become easy to do.
For this reason, the practice of all the arts is for the purpose of clearing away what is on your mind. In the beginning, you do not know anything, so paradoxically you do not have any questions on your mind. Then, when you get into studies, there is something on your mind and you are obstructed by that. This makes everything difficult to do.
When what you have studied leaves your mind entirely, and practice also disappears, then, when you perform whatever art you are engaged in, you accomplish the techniques easily without being inhibited by concern over what you have learned, and yet without deviating from what you have learned. This is spontaneously conforming to learning without being consciously aware of doing so. The science of the art of war can be understood through this.
When you have built up achievement in cultivation of learning and practice, even as your hands, feet, and body act, this does not hang on your mind. You are detached from your learning yet do not deviate from your learning. Whatever you do, your action is free.
At this time, you do not even know where your own mind is; neither the celestial devil nor outsiders can spy into your heart. The learning is for the purpose of reaching this state. Once you have learned this successfully, learning disappears."
Miyamoto Musashi, "The Book of Five Rings"
When you set the meter to measure current, it acts like a piece of wire - a "short" circuit, between red and black probes. The probes go in series with the conductor you want to measure the current in. You fried that fuse when you connected the meter to the battery in parallel when it was set to current. That is why it shows zero current.
When you measure volts, the meter acts like an open circuit, or high impedance, between the red and black probes. The probes are connected in parallel, or across the device you are measuring.
Never switch meter modes when connected to a circuit. Set the meter switch before connecting the probes.
Never try to measure voltage with the meter set to current. You will be connecting a short circuit across whatever you are measuring.
HTH
When you measure volts, the meter acts like an open circuit, or high impedance, between the red and black probes. The probes are connected in parallel, or across the device you are measuring.
Never switch meter modes when connected to a circuit. Set the meter switch before connecting the probes.
Never try to measure voltage with the meter set to current. You will be connecting a short circuit across whatever you are measuring.
HTH
Agreed. I think this is what happened, too. Except because his multimeter was set to '200m DCA', it actually fried the circuitry in the multimeter...because as Drew points out, the replaceable fuse is on the '10 A' circuit...
This is the big one (rule) to remember when taking electrical measurements. Making this mistake can draw a lot of current and is a safety issue (if you, the operator, become the path of least resistance for the current to get to ground).
Nick, picking up where we left off last evening, it seems like the troubleshooting is focused on two things:
1) running the 'Conductance' test on the battery (see video in post #34)
2) finishing the 'parasitic draw' testing
For the 'Conductance' test, you might call around to the local auto parts stores to see if they offer testing or rent the tool for free.
For the 'parasitic draw' testing, you now know how to properly install the multi-meter in series to the neg battery terminal. Have you got a new HF multimeter and got a measurement from that? What is the value of that measurement?
1) running the 'Conductance' test on the battery (see video in post #34)
2) finishing the 'parasitic draw' testing
For the 'Conductance' test, you might call around to the local auto parts stores to see if they offer testing or rent the tool for free.
For the 'parasitic draw' testing, you now know how to properly install the multi-meter in series to the neg battery terminal. Have you got a new HF multimeter and got a measurement from that? What is the value of that measurement?
- Thread starter
- #67
Oh, OK...that should work fine. I'm not familiar with that exact multimeter, but it looks like it should do all the tests (except for the battery 'Conductance' test) you need to run to troubleshoot a 'parasitic draw' and should work for future electrical automotive troubleshooting...
...downside is that the automation of it is going to take you around having to think through the principles in order to take the correct measurement instead of having to struggle through them, but if the priority is to get this problem solved, then the learning opportunity might reveal itself again in the future.
Any luck tracking down a parts store that offers free battery 'Conductance' testing?
...downside is that the automation of it is going to take you around having to think through the principles in order to take the correct measurement instead of having to struggle through them, but if the priority is to get this problem solved, then the learning opportunity might reveal itself again in the future.
Any luck tracking down a parts store that offers free battery 'Conductance' testing?
- Thread starter
- #69
Ok so when I put the negative on the cable and the positive on the negative it shows as 12.8v. I knew I shouldn't have got the auto ranging, heading back to Home Depot in a bit, I just can't get a break right now!
Huh. That's interesting. So if I understand correctly, when you put the Klein Tools meter in series (like you did in the picture in post #54) between the removed neg battery cable and the neg battery post....it only gives you a Voltage reading? The tool won't allow you to measure current?
EDIT: Yeah, it only measures voltage, resistance and continuity...
...that HF one wasn't that bad...it's just that you slightly tortured it trying to get it hooked up correctly...
EDIT: Yeah, it only measures voltage, resistance and continuity...
...that HF one wasn't that bad...it's just that you slightly tortured it trying to get it hooked up correctly...
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- Thread starter
- #71
Now that I'm looking more into it, it says mm500 can measure ac/dc, resistance and continuity
right, but it doesn't measure current.
Resistance and continuity are the 'same' measurement. Resistance = 1/continuity
Resistance/continuity measurements are taken on an isolated component of a circuit...isolated meaning that it is not connected to a power source (no external (battery) voltage or current should be passing through the component when you take a resistance or continuity measurement - instead, the meter generates the voltage and current necessary to take the measurement):
Resistance and continuity are the 'same' measurement. Resistance = 1/continuity
Resistance/continuity measurements are taken on an isolated component of a circuit...isolated meaning that it is not connected to a power source (no external (battery) voltage or current should be passing through the component when you take a resistance or continuity measurement - instead, the meter generates the voltage and current necessary to take the measurement):
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- Thread starter
- #73
That's what I'm saying, I mean why wouldn't a meter be able to read current???? The less expensive meter can do that! I'm pissed especially because I have to rely on people to get me to places because I'm only 15 and can't get my license until I'm 16 so the chances of me getting a ride back to Home Depot today is slim. Especially because I'm going fishing with some buddies at 5:30
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Yeah, that sucks. I feel the pain working on a DD like that.
Well, until you can get the opportunity to return that one and get another (why not go with the HF one again?), try and hunt down (over the phone) an auto parts store that runs 'Conductance' tests or rents the tools for free like the one in the video. That seems to be the only test that's gonna tell you for sure whether or not you need to replace the battery.
Then, when you've got another working multi-meter like that HF one, go back and rerun the 'parasitic draw' test (with all the doors/lights/etc off), post up the current value that is leaking...then you can begin to troubleshoot which circuit is causing the parasitic draw.
Well, until you can get the opportunity to return that one and get another (why not go with the HF one again?), try and hunt down (over the phone) an auto parts store that runs 'Conductance' tests or rents the tools for free like the one in the video. That seems to be the only test that's gonna tell you for sure whether or not you need to replace the battery.
Then, when you've got another working multi-meter like that HF one, go back and rerun the 'parasitic draw' test (with all the doors/lights/etc off), post up the current value that is leaking...then you can begin to troubleshoot which circuit is causing the parasitic draw.
EDIT: The information in this post is for helping you track down where you can get the battery 'Conductance' test done...this is a different tool than the multimeter for taking the 'parasitic draw' measurements. The reason I am posting up this information, is that I'm not sure how familiar local auto parts stores are with or whether they run this type of test...so you might have to explain to them what you mean by 'Conductance' test for the battery.
I think this is the Solar model they used to do 'Conductance' measurements on the battery in that video:
here are the details of that model:
http://www.centurytool.net/BA5_Solar_100_1200_CCA_12_V_Digital_Battery_Tester_p/solba5.htm
and if you do a Google search for 'Conductance Battery Testers', you can find sites with different models, like this:
http://www.centurytool.net/Conductance_Battery_Testers_s/24383.htm
It could be that auto parts stores aren't familiar with this type of battery tests (they might only usually do load and voltage testing), so you are going to have to read up a little on the difference this 'Conductance' type testing is from those other tests so you can explain it to the guy at the auto parts store...otherwise he might think you are from out of town...
The video does a little bit explaining the difference, but you might find a better explanation if you do a Google search and muscle through it...
I think this is the Solar model they used to do 'Conductance' measurements on the battery in that video:
here are the details of that model:
http://www.centurytool.net/BA5_Solar_100_1200_CCA_12_V_Digital_Battery_Tester_p/solba5.htm
and if you do a Google search for 'Conductance Battery Testers', you can find sites with different models, like this:
http://www.centurytool.net/Conductance_Battery_Testers_s/24383.htm
It could be that auto parts stores aren't familiar with this type of battery tests (they might only usually do load and voltage testing), so you are going to have to read up a little on the difference this 'Conductance' type testing is from those other tests so you can explain it to the guy at the auto parts store...otherwise he might think you are from out of town...
The video does a little bit explaining the difference, but you might find a better explanation if you do a Google search and muscle through it...
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land crusher
Morgen, morgen nur nicht heute...
...that HF one wasn't that bad...it's just that you slightly tortured it trying to get it hooked up correctly...
While I'm not going to say that those free HF meters aren't junk in the sense that they are very cheaply built, I do believe that they are entirely adequate for anything (such as automotive, building wiring, etc.) that doesn't require high precision. I've compared several to better meters I have as well as each other and they are accurate and consistent.
You cannot measure battery conductance with a multimeter, sorry. You need the special meter above or from parts store/battery place to do that. Also, as pointed out, that Klein meter does not measure current. The HF meter is a POS as DMMS go, but it will suffice for you, and they are cheap to burn, I mean learn on. Wouldn't want you to smoke your pop's Fluke, no. 
When you have time please go to youtube and watch some multimeter tutorial videos. Couldn't hurt.
When you have time please go to youtube and watch some multimeter tutorial videos. Couldn't hurt.
That's good to know that they are accurate despite being cheap.
I just went to the HF website and picked on that looked closest (Cen-Tech - item#98025) to the model in the pictures Nick posted up (not sure if it is the exact same model) but the .pdf gives specs/tolerances/accuracies.
It seems to only be rated to measure current up to 200 mA on that DCA circuit...and only up to 10 A on that fused circuit.
Since 'parasitic draws' are current leaks typically on the order of under 100 mA, Nick could first start with the meter set to the 10 A fused circuit (as Drew suggests), see if it gives him a reading...and if he doesn't see a reading or it is too small (in decimal places), he can remove the meter, switch the lead and knob over to the 200 mA circuit and reattach the meter and take a reading.
The only circuit I don't think this HF will be able to measure current on is the charging circuit between the alternator and battery, because the HF can only measure current up to 10 A and the alternator is kicking out 50-60 A...and anyway, taking that type of alternator measurement should be left to someone experienced in electrical measurements...
EDIT: ...well, I guess it won't measure any of the Body Electrical circuits above 10 A...I guess there are some 15, 30 A Body Electrical circuits...
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land crusher
Morgen, morgen nur nicht heute...
Yeah, too bad a clamp-on (inductance) meter won't measure DC current. HF has some cheap ones and for AC current they measure 1000 amps. I do seem to remember that some models of battery charger can be used (they have a setting for it) as an ammeter.
Part of what might be giving confusing readings previously is that you had the dial set for amps when the lead was inserted into the volts hole. The red lead must be moved when you switch from volts to amps.
Sorry you're having such a frustrating problem to learn on. Stick with it a bit longer and you'll get it.
Sorry you're having such a frustrating problem to learn on. Stick with it a bit longer and you'll get it.
