Some from SAS3 last year.
Builds Gen IV LS/NV4500 Swap (1 Viewer)
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- #142
Man, can you guys tell that keeping up with forum posts is not my strong suit? Dave covered some of the hero shots, much appreciated. In the last year and half I've just been driving it. It's been all over Colorado trails, out to Moab a few times, and done a lot of mundane daily driver duty. I certainly like the coil front end a lot better, with the extra caster it drives better and the impact harshness is way down compared to the leaf spring setup. This is my favorite shot showing the new front end, I snapped this one at Cruise Moab last year...
I've talked with @TRAIL TAILOR a few times and the obvious choice for anyone contemplating a coil spring conversion would be to use his kit. The way I went about it using Toyota parts is getting harder and harder with limited parts availability and frankly his kit installs much easier anyway. We'll be supporting customers in the Colorado/Rocky Mtn areas installing the Trail Tailor SAS kits for anyone that is interested in this upgrade. My truck is still running the leaf spring rear but if I can get caught up on some other problems that popped up I'm going to grab one of his rear coil kits and put it on the truck as well. We tow a rugged teardrop camp trailer with the truck and I'd like to have the coils plus airbags to allow for varying load capacities, not to mention a general improvement in ride quality. I scored a set of eLocker axles a few months ago that are just sitting on the rack now waiting for some attention and the install kit to go with them.
And speaking of the other problems... I finally had a hiccup with my LS. The engine I installed is a GenIV variant called the LC9 (aluminum block and heads) which has the Active Fuel Management system. The AFM will turn off four cylinders at cruise conditions using lifters that can be deactivated. My GMPP computer disabled the feature but the hardware is still in the engine and a couple weeks ago the intake valve on cylinder #7 decided to stop opening. It seems the "active" lifter has somehow broken and is stuck in the deactivated mode. So after 3 years, finally a problem with the LS.
I've ordered an AFM delete kit from Brian Tooley Racing which puts all the cam and valvetrain back to stock non-AFM parts. I also ordered a VCT delete and their new truck-grind camshaft which adds 20-40 ft-lbs of torque throughout most of the range. I'm waiting on parts to come in but will be pulling the motor out to do this rebuild as well as clean up a few leaks in the transmission and tcase. I'm also going to get those annoying exhaust manifold rust problems taken care of by sending them out for a proper coating from Jet Hot instead of the crappy thin layer that Hooker sold them with.
So as always, the build continues...
I've talked with @TRAIL TAILOR a few times and the obvious choice for anyone contemplating a coil spring conversion would be to use his kit. The way I went about it using Toyota parts is getting harder and harder with limited parts availability and frankly his kit installs much easier anyway. We'll be supporting customers in the Colorado/Rocky Mtn areas installing the Trail Tailor SAS kits for anyone that is interested in this upgrade. My truck is still running the leaf spring rear but if I can get caught up on some other problems that popped up I'm going to grab one of his rear coil kits and put it on the truck as well. We tow a rugged teardrop camp trailer with the truck and I'd like to have the coils plus airbags to allow for varying load capacities, not to mention a general improvement in ride quality. I scored a set of eLocker axles a few months ago that are just sitting on the rack now waiting for some attention and the install kit to go with them.
And speaking of the other problems... I finally had a hiccup with my LS. The engine I installed is a GenIV variant called the LC9 (aluminum block and heads) which has the Active Fuel Management system. The AFM will turn off four cylinders at cruise conditions using lifters that can be deactivated. My GMPP computer disabled the feature but the hardware is still in the engine and a couple weeks ago the intake valve on cylinder #7 decided to stop opening. It seems the "active" lifter has somehow broken and is stuck in the deactivated mode. So after 3 years, finally a problem with the LS.
I've ordered an AFM delete kit from Brian Tooley Racing which puts all the cam and valvetrain back to stock non-AFM parts. I also ordered a VCT delete and their new truck-grind camshaft which adds 20-40 ft-lbs of torque throughout most of the range. I'm waiting on parts to come in but will be pulling the motor out to do this rebuild as well as clean up a few leaks in the transmission and tcase. I'm also going to get those annoying exhaust manifold rust problems taken care of by sending them out for a proper coating from Jet Hot instead of the crappy thin layer that Hooker sold them with.
So as always, the build continues...
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- #143
Catching up... The engine upgrade came and went. I think the cam from BTR is probably yielding about the same performance as the stock VCT truck cam. The idle has a little more lope and I had a friend do a quick re-cal on the MAF but my seat of the pants dyno can't really tell any difference between the two.
Over the last month or so I finally got rolling on the coil conversion. @TRAIL TAILOR sent me the necessary bits and I got busy laying it all out and welding it up. I discovered a few things in this install that bears consideration for anyone doing the swap...
I have (had) a Man-A-Fre long range tank in my truck. When I dropped out the axle and went to set the spring buckets in they were hitting the tank. Next up I tried to mock up the panhard mount and it was a definite no-go. The rod would have had to pass through the front 4" or so of the tank. After some deliberation I gave up the big tank and put a stocker back in. I was bummed to do it, I really appreciated having 40 gallons and over 500mi range but I couldn't see any way to work around it. I looked at the pics of the LRA tank and it appears to have the same problem. If someone is really ambitious you could knock off the bottom of one of these tanks and delete the first 6" or so and it would probably work.
After getting that all worked out I proceeded with the install. The whole process is pretty straightforward, but I did hit another snag. I wanted to try this with stock control arms to see how things would work out, Jason told me he usually uses adjustables but this is one area where a customer could potentially save a few bucks. When I tacked everything on and set it up with stock arms the spring location and found some serious bend in the spring. While diagnosing this I found my spring buckets were off forward by half an inch so that's part of it, but there was still some bend.
After fixing the spring buckets I still was seeing some bend in the spring so I went ahead and ordered a full set of Metal Tech arms to give me lots of adjustability. With the adjustable arms I iterated pinion angle and fore/aft location of the axle to find a spot I was happy with. The spring bend is almost gone, but I did have to shorten the uppers a bit to get the adjustability I needed. The LCA's ended up at basically a stock length. In the future I think I will adjust the angle of the spring seat on the housing and that should provide the last little bit of adjustment needed to get the spring angle just right.
The next issue showed itself as I was finishing assembly, my V8 exhaust was of course in exactly the wrong place...
I just put a turn-down tip on it for the moment but plan to try and sneak a tailpipe through there later. It won't be easy with a 3" pipe and all the links but I think I can do it. Cabin noise when up with the exhaust reverberating on the floor but so far there hasn't been any problems with fumes.
After a few miles of shake down I went out with some friends to play in the snow a bit and test it out..
Overall I'm happy with the ride and flex. We hit some twisty ditch sections that definitely cycled it through full travel and it was working well. I did hear some tire rub on a hard dip where I bottomed it out so I may need to tweak the axle location a bit more. I don't have bump stops in it at the moment though so that may solve the issue.
So overall a nice upgrade to the rig. Between the full coil conversion and V8 swap I don't think there's much left to do from a chassis and powertrain perspective. Next up is some interior rehab and then maybe this truck is done. Or maybe I'm kidding myself and they're never done.
Over the last month or so I finally got rolling on the coil conversion. @TRAIL TAILOR sent me the necessary bits and I got busy laying it all out and welding it up. I discovered a few things in this install that bears consideration for anyone doing the swap...
I have (had) a Man-A-Fre long range tank in my truck. When I dropped out the axle and went to set the spring buckets in they were hitting the tank. Next up I tried to mock up the panhard mount and it was a definite no-go. The rod would have had to pass through the front 4" or so of the tank. After some deliberation I gave up the big tank and put a stocker back in. I was bummed to do it, I really appreciated having 40 gallons and over 500mi range but I couldn't see any way to work around it. I looked at the pics of the LRA tank and it appears to have the same problem. If someone is really ambitious you could knock off the bottom of one of these tanks and delete the first 6" or so and it would probably work.
After getting that all worked out I proceeded with the install. The whole process is pretty straightforward, but I did hit another snag. I wanted to try this with stock control arms to see how things would work out, Jason told me he usually uses adjustables but this is one area where a customer could potentially save a few bucks. When I tacked everything on and set it up with stock arms the spring location and found some serious bend in the spring. While diagnosing this I found my spring buckets were off forward by half an inch so that's part of it, but there was still some bend.
After fixing the spring buckets I still was seeing some bend in the spring so I went ahead and ordered a full set of Metal Tech arms to give me lots of adjustability. With the adjustable arms I iterated pinion angle and fore/aft location of the axle to find a spot I was happy with. The spring bend is almost gone, but I did have to shorten the uppers a bit to get the adjustability I needed. The LCA's ended up at basically a stock length. In the future I think I will adjust the angle of the spring seat on the housing and that should provide the last little bit of adjustment needed to get the spring angle just right.
The next issue showed itself as I was finishing assembly, my V8 exhaust was of course in exactly the wrong place...
I just put a turn-down tip on it for the moment but plan to try and sneak a tailpipe through there later. It won't be easy with a 3" pipe and all the links but I think I can do it. Cabin noise when up with the exhaust reverberating on the floor but so far there hasn't been any problems with fumes.
After a few miles of shake down I went out with some friends to play in the snow a bit and test it out..
Overall I'm happy with the ride and flex. We hit some twisty ditch sections that definitely cycled it through full travel and it was working well. I did hear some tire rub on a hard dip where I bottomed it out so I may need to tweak the axle location a bit more. I don't have bump stops in it at the moment though so that may solve the issue.
So overall a nice upgrade to the rig. Between the full coil conversion and V8 swap I don't think there's much left to do from a chassis and powertrain perspective. Next up is some interior rehab and then maybe this truck is done. Or maybe I'm kidding myself and they're never done.
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- Thread starter
- #145
No, the NV4500 is great and I actually prefer it to the H55 in customer trucks we've built. Better 1st and 5th gear ratios is the primary reason I'd choose it over the H55.
Yeah thanks, that was my thought. I loved the H55f when I had the auto removed, but it has been behaving bad the last 6-8 months.
- Thread starter
- #147
Slowly by slowly the upgrades continue...
I picked up a set of Vario XXL seats from Scheel-Mann. Toby advised they had a new color coming that he thought would work really well for the FJ60. This is S242 checkerboard cloth inners with S211 grey leatherette bolsters.
I was a little worried before they arrived that the gray may not quite match up but now that I've got them installed it matches the interior really well...
I used the brackets from Planted combined with the standard sliders from Scheel-Mann to get it all installed. If you email Jeff from Planted he'll sell you a bracket set custom drilled for the Scheel-Mann seats (they're a little different than the usual aftermarket seat pattern).
I've only had them in a week or so now and no long trips yet but these things blow away the stock seats as far as comfort goes. With all the adjustments plus extra rearward travel there is almost no way you couldn't find a comfortable seating position. I haven't hooked up the heaters yet because I'm getting ready to do some upgrades to the dash and switch locations but a warm butt on these cold Colorado mornings will be icing on the cake. They're not the cheapest option out there, but I'm not sure you can find a better one...
I picked up a set of Vario XXL seats from Scheel-Mann. Toby advised they had a new color coming that he thought would work really well for the FJ60. This is S242 checkerboard cloth inners with S211 grey leatherette bolsters.
I was a little worried before they arrived that the gray may not quite match up but now that I've got them installed it matches the interior really well...
I used the brackets from Planted combined with the standard sliders from Scheel-Mann to get it all installed. If you email Jeff from Planted he'll sell you a bracket set custom drilled for the Scheel-Mann seats (they're a little different than the usual aftermarket seat pattern).
I've only had them in a week or so now and no long trips yet but these things blow away the stock seats as far as comfort goes. With all the adjustments plus extra rearward travel there is almost no way you couldn't find a comfortable seating position. I haven't hooked up the heaters yet because I'm getting ready to do some upgrades to the dash and switch locations but a warm butt on these cold Colorado mornings will be icing on the cake. They're not the cheapest option out there, but I'm not sure you can find a better one...
nor_cal_cyclist
GOLD Star
Look forward to hearing about those seats after a few miles - I have a set sitting in the box in my garage waiting for the reassembly of my off-frame FJ40
Boy, your doing it! Those seats are next level! I have been looking into them my self as well. It’s a big decision.
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- #150
The adventure continues... Last month I headed out to Cruise Moab. We are normally a displaying vendor but COVID put the kibosh on all official group activities other than trail runs. I decided to take the opportunity to sign up for the Wed/Thurs run out in the San Rafael Swell led by Kurt @cruiseroutfit and some of his guys. If you've never been to Utah, or Cruise Moab this might be the best run of the week. Kurt's a great trail leader with an endless supply of local knowledge to make it a fun and interesting couple days. A few fun shots...
I decided to keep it simple and sleep in the truck. Unfortunately it was a little colder than planned, dropping below freezing at night. I made it through, but definitely was missing my trailer and it's Propex heater.
The main event was the Devil's Racetrack out in the Swell. One of the many scenic vistas...
Late afternoon stop, just a bunch of old Toyotas...
Did I mention that they even brought in a band for the nighttime entertainment? Pretty freakin cool...
I decided to keep it simple and sleep in the truck. Unfortunately it was a little colder than planned, dropping below freezing at night. I made it through, but definitely was missing my trailer and it's Propex heater.
The main event was the Devil's Racetrack out in the Swell. One of the many scenic vistas...
Late afternoon stop, just a bunch of old Toyotas...
Did I mention that they even brought in a band for the nighttime entertainment? Pretty freakin cool...
- Thread starter
- #151
We got back to the Cruise Moab HQ on Thursday afternoon and vacation was over for me. My Friday assignment was to lead a group through Hell's Revenge. I've done this quite a few times so it's generally a pretty easy assignment and it's always fun bringing new folks out onto the most famous of the slick rock trails. We stopped at the river overlook for a lunch break, and the 60 took center stage...
No one took the challenge to run Hell's Gate so no hero shots from there. We had one minor incident when a rig had a bit of a flop in one of the hot tubs. I was busy with recovery and didn't get any shots of that either, it was just a bit of body damage and no injuries so all things considered a pretty minor incident. We continued along the trail on the rocks...
All was going well overall, however as we were about 2/3 of the way through I noticed a change in my truck. Over the past few months I've grown accustomed to the squeaks of the rear springs rubbing on the frame rails. As I was making my way through some ledges I noticed the rear suspension was completely silent. Hmmm. A little farther down the trail I heard a few strange noises from the rear. I stopped the group and jumped out of the truck to take a look. The investigation was quick, because the problem was pretty obvious...
That's the rear coil bucket tearing itself out of the frame rail. No bueno. Both sides were doing it and the buckets had bent up enough so that they were hitting the underside of the body which thankfully had prevented them from completely coming out.
At this point we were about 2/3 of the way through the trail. I decided to keep going in the hopes that I could get the group out before the rear suspension got any worse. I kept the speeds really low and crawled it out of Hells Revenge very carefully. I felt like the ~5 mile drive back to the camp site was a reasonable risk so I headed back to HQ, dropped off my paperwork and started planning next steps.
No one took the challenge to run Hell's Gate so no hero shots from there. We had one minor incident when a rig had a bit of a flop in one of the hot tubs. I was busy with recovery and didn't get any shots of that either, it was just a bit of body damage and no injuries so all things considered a pretty minor incident. We continued along the trail on the rocks...
All was going well overall, however as we were about 2/3 of the way through I noticed a change in my truck. Over the past few months I've grown accustomed to the squeaks of the rear springs rubbing on the frame rails. As I was making my way through some ledges I noticed the rear suspension was completely silent. Hmmm. A little farther down the trail I heard a few strange noises from the rear. I stopped the group and jumped out of the truck to take a look. The investigation was quick, because the problem was pretty obvious...
That's the rear coil bucket tearing itself out of the frame rail. No bueno. Both sides were doing it and the buckets had bent up enough so that they were hitting the underside of the body which thankfully had prevented them from completely coming out.
At this point we were about 2/3 of the way through the trail. I decided to keep going in the hopes that I could get the group out before the rear suspension got any worse. I kept the speeds really low and crawled it out of Hells Revenge very carefully. I felt like the ~5 mile drive back to the camp site was a reasonable risk so I headed back to HQ, dropped off my paperwork and started planning next steps.
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yep, suspension parts or motor mounts welded to the side of a 60 frame rail without a plate doesn't end well - learned that myself a few times now
Not fun looking. Design improvements are needed. Sorry Man.
- Thread starter
- #154
I left the truck in Moab and went back a few weeks later to get it. It's never fun when they have to come home like this...
The truck sat parked while I dealt with some customer projects and started evaluating my options. Last week I got it on the hoist and pulled the axle for a better view of the damage. Here's a better view of both sides...
I cut the remainder portion holding on the driver's side bucket and the tear out at the front was clearly visible...
The truck sat parked while I dealt with some customer projects and started evaluating my options. Last week I got it on the hoist and pulled the axle for a better view of the damage. Here's a better view of both sides...
I cut the remainder portion holding on the driver's side bucket and the tear out at the front was clearly visible...
- Thread starter
- #155
Agreed. I had my doubts about this design and it failed pretty much where I expected. I bought the kit because I wanted to try it on my own truck before doing any customer builds to better assess the install time and the hardware, that's looking to be a pretty good decision in hindsight because I wouldn't want to be dealing with this on a customer rig. As I often tell my guys, the most expensive work is rework.
Design improvements definitely needed. I have spent a fair bit of time looking at this failure and thinking about the overall design. I have ideas how the spring buckets could be improved but won't list them out here because even if you were to fix the spring perches it doesn't address some of the smaller but not insignificant problems I was having. The springs were always rubbing the frame rails making a very annoying squeak noise over bumps, according to Jason that has only happened on some builds with some springs but it's not something I want my customer dealing with. The springs also were slightly touching the bolts for the UCA's, I don't think it made noise but always bugged me that it was catching the spring and rubbing the powdercoat off, I think it could eventually rub a notch in the surface. The surface of the wire on a coil spring is where the highest stresses are so any sort of notches or damage can lead to stress concentrations, fatigue cracks, and eventual failure. And the whole fore/aft location and spring bend issue I described in earlier posts never sat well with me. Between the awkward bend angles and surface damage from the rubbing locations I think the risk of a spring breakage is pretty high.
After I removed the buckets I also found cracks at the shock mounts on both sides. Again, this wasn't too surprising as the upper shock mount is a cantilevered flag off the front of the bucket and never seemed strong enough. Shock loads can be thousands of pounds on high speed inputs so in some regards they need to be as strong or stronger than spring mounts. Here's a closeup of one of the rear shock mount cracks. Over time this would have eventually grown and caused a failure of the upper shock mount.
The bottom line is that stuffing 80 springs in the rear of a 60 is not a great idea. The spring diameters, perch locations, frame width, and control arm mounts are all fighting each other and a lot of compromises get made to try and fit it all in there. As I was brainstorming solutions I looked at quite a few options to modify the design to use different springs, or switch to coilovers and while there are many ways you could build a system that would work most involved tradeoffs I wasn't willing to make (or put on my customer's vehicles).
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Can’t blame the installer on this one either - your welds held up perfectly.
that setup would not have lasted a month with the way I drive my truck.
Good thing you caught it early enough that the springs didn’t punch through the floor!
that setup would not have lasted a month with the way I drive my truck.
Good thing you caught it early enough that the springs didn’t punch through the floor!
- Thread starter
- #157
Yeah, I figured a 6-hour drive across I-70 was going to result in at least a hole in the floor if not a complete failure of the system. I was kind of worried about it bouncing around on the trailer for the trip home but it made it without any further damage. There are a couple dimples in the floor pan from the shock tops but thankfully no holes.
tmxmotorsports
SILVER Star
Ugh
You'll smash that fix in no time, and be back out with thoughts of following Cruisermatt through the hinterland!
- Thread starter
- #160
Indeed we will.
So I was brainstorming design ideas and solutions for this little conundrum. As I mentioned earlier, the more I looked at it the more I came back to coil springs being a bad idea. I considered converting the truck back to leaf springs but it seemed like a bit of a waste given that I had the control arms etc all installed and everything looking good with those. I kept coming back to the idea of not reinventing the wheel so I decided to give @torfab a call and discuss his airbag system. I had generally been impressed with the design and layout when I saw it first hit the market and considered it in the first place. The biggest positive to his design is that by using an airbag instead of a spring he is able to locate the bag under the frame rail and avoid the coil spring fitment problems. You can debate the merits of using an airbag as a primary spring but my take is that those rear coils were going to fail at some point and there are a lot of vehicles out on the road that use air springs successfully (such as my wife's GX470) so I consider it a wash.
Tor and I had a pretty lengthy phone conversation discussing the coil spring design and how and why he got to his air bag solution. Tor had seen the same things I was seeing in terms of trying to fit conventional coils or coilovers in the 60-series frame and his design approach made a lot of sense. We had similar views on the coil spring tradeoffs and the general concerns about load paths and fitment in trying to convert these trucks. It was pretty clear this was the right approach - keep the 80 axle and control arms and convert the truck to Tor's rear airbag system.
We hit the order button and waited for brown Santa to bring the goods.
