Full-floating rear axles (1 Viewer)

[Mark W]

Interesting approach. I have some of the saem concerns that Steve has. Not all, but some. The hub studs can be replaced with stronger. The pins'dowels can be doubled up on (I've done this on my Toyota FF rear). But I think that on the rear, the strength of the lockout hibs, even Aisins, would be the weak point. Much mor stress on the rear than the front ever see's. Like Steve, I would be concerned about the strength of recut splines and also about the stregth and straightness of a welded together axle shaft.

With custom axle shafts, these issues would be addressed. If you installed drive flanges instead of lockout hubs, that issue would be too. The studs and pins are the saemas used on the OEM FF rears, so their strength is equal. Can (and IMHO should) be upgraded, but this is not a handicap of this conversion compared to OEM.

However... Even in the US a FF rear can be purchased for something like $450 or $600 USD (Can't remember exactly right now and it's not worth looking it up at the moment). Doesn't seem like you save a whole lot when you factor in time, money and work for this approach. OEM disc brakes can be easily converted to an OEM FF rear (got some on one of my rigs...)

AND, for most people and most uses, advantages of the FF over the SF rear are overrated and the disadvantages are somehow overlooked.

Most of us can run tires up to the 40 inch range on the SF rear without any serious concerns. Some users and uses (no not just mall cruisin') can routinely run anaything under 44s with these axles. Sure you *can* break them, but you *can* break any thing. Including OEM FF rears and Dana 60s.


Neat approach and nice work. But to me it seems to be more of a "because I can" type of conversion.


Mark...

 

[Vicm]

First thanks,Steve, Mark,Manny ,and all you guyswho posted comments.
All is very usefull, and I will be the first to take them into account.
Still if you need any help from me ,I will try as much as I can to give you more info on how to make this conversion if you ever decide to do it.
I really recomend as I did before, to use stock or even stronger ff axle shafts.
If you are going to be using tires bigger than stock , stay away from locking hubs spacially warn l hubs.
Still the plates have nothingto do with makinga axle shafts, you still can make the shafts to your choice. I spent a long time just thinking about this.
And believe me There is nothing that was said here so far that I didn't think about. I will keep you posted, once I put few miles on these axles ,with the brakes and everything else.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts . If people who know don't say nothing , no one will ever learn.

 

[F-junker]

I have agree that a FF rear axle is great for flat towing but maybe not the best choice for full on full throttle wheeling and big tires. I've seen a few danas break loose and fly apart in a heavy load up hill. Oh s*** look out!!! Oh God what a pisser.

I enjoy seeing different approaches to solve problems and hope this mod works out well for your needs.

 

[grant5127]

this conversion is nothing new... its been done and redone for decades..... and the idea was for flat tow behind a motor home ... IIRC that was 1977.. it was a featured article in 4 wheel magazine......

 

[DaveWest5150]

I am running a stock full floater out of a 60 seires in the rear of my fj40.
I have run both, and I will tell you that the full floater is much stronger (twice the bearings) will not let your wheel fall off (if you break an axle) and has better brakes that that of a stock pre 80's (I think) semi floating axle.
remember that a semi floating axle is supporting the weight of the vehicle, the full floating only turns the wheel.

 

[Vicm]

Just more info.
comparing things together.
To buy a stock ff rear around 450+shipping , lucky if you live in the USA
ADD disk brake conversion $$
ADD 120 for a used axle shaft if you can ever locate one,
that is for those that want to swap a locking diff from the fj80.
total over 700.
Making your own.
2 adapter plates ,any good machine shop can make you 2 plates like the ones I made for 300 tops.
I have a quote from Dutchman for the 2 axle shafts for 400 + shipping.
But you end up with all toyota parts and a full floaters with disks.
and if you don't want lockouts, you can get a pair of stock ff axle shafts for around 250. even cheaper.
I can't see how people say that this will be an expensive conversion.
Even much cheaper if you do most of the work on the plates .
like drilling the 8 spindle holes and cutting the raw plates.
No one will aruge the 2 facts
FF IS STRONGER THAN SF
AND
DISK BRAKES ARE BETTER IF YOU USE THEM ON FF WITH ALL TOY PARTS.

 

['74 UA FJ]

Just more info.
comparing things together.
To buy a stock ff rear around 450+shipping , lucky if you live in the USA
ADD disk brake conversion $$
ADD 120 for a used axle shaft if you can ever locate one,
that is for those that want to swap a locking diff from the fj80.
total over 700.
Making your own.
2 adapter plates ,any good machine shop can make you 2 plates like the ones I made for 300 tops.
I have a quote from Dutchman for the 2 axle shafts for 400 + shipping.
But you end up with all toyota parts and a full floaters with disks.
and if you don't want lockouts, you can get a pair of stock ff axle shafts for around 250. even cheaper.
I can't see how people say that this will be an expensive conversion.
Even much cheaper if you do most of the work on the plates .
like drilling the 8 spindle holes and cutting the raw plates.
No one will aruge the 2 facts
FF IS STRONGER THAN SF
AND
DISK BRAKES ARE BETTER IF YOU USE THEM ON FF WITH ALL TOY PARTS.

You forgot to list the cost of all the toyota parts you will need. Calipers, rotors, etc. I guess you were just assuming you already had all of those parts.

If you have a regular Toyota FF rear axle, you can make rear disk brake brackets for monte carlo calipers in an hour or two.

 

[coiled40gary]

Warn used to make a kit. I don't know why they don't anymore but I wasn't aware of any problems with it.

quote]

I'm running the Warn rear FF. I'm happy with it, but it took a bit to get there. Warn was replacing the locking hubs every few months, the fourth time they provided me with flanges made of the same alloy as the axles. They also had a problem with their anealing process on the axles, and several of them warped on me. They tried to tell me my housing was bad, but luckily I have access to a machine shop and was able to prove the axles were bent each time. Then I learned they were working on the anealing processes. I also went through three different types of seals from them before we got one that did not leak. Although the leaks also seemed to stop when the axles finally stayed straight, could be related .

Warn is local, so I had the benefit of being able to drop in with the problems. Also local are W Harrold and Cascade Cruisers. Some of those guys are just plain hard on rigs. And Warn learned that there is no such thing as a "normal" LC configuration, and the segment of the LC market that their products fit into made it hard for them to honor their life time no questions asked warrentee and maintain a profit. The company then changed ownership and the new owners decided that Warn should drop back to their original, profitable, markets, and they sold off much of their "side" products, but the LC scpecific stuff had been dropped before that happened.
I really can not blame them, but I paid the extra premium for their axles and suspension (got one of the 12 LC XCL kits) on the belief that I was going to go into retirement and not have to worry about expensess in those areas again.

gary

 

[ridgerunner]

No one will aruge the 2 facts
FF IS STRONGER THAN SF
AND
DISK BRAKES ARE BETTER IF YOU USE THEM ON FF WITH ALL TOY PARTS.

Actually, there is some contention about which axle is stronger, especially with new PIG axles for the SF. No messing around with broken studs or sheared dowels.

And how are disk brakes better if you use them on a FF with all toy parts? I've got a chevy setup on a 60 FF and have no problems or complaints. The only part that I would grant Toyota vs. Chevy for a disk brake on a rear full floater is an integral parking brake, which the swap you've designed doesn't incorporate.

 

[Mark W]

Just more info.
comparing things together.
To buy a stock ff rear around 450+shipping , lucky if you live in the USA
ADD disk brake conversion $$
ADD 120 for a used axle shaft if you can ever locate one,
that is for those that want to swap a locking diff from the fj80.
total over 700.
Making your own.
2 adapter plates ,any good machine shop can make you 2 plates like the ones I made for 300 tops.
I have a quote from Dutchman for the 2 axle shafts for 400 + shipping.
But you end up with all toyota parts and a full floaters with disks.
and if you don't want lockouts, you can get a pair of stock ff axle shafts for around 250. even cheaper.
I can't see how people say that this will be an expensive conversion.
Even much cheaper if you do most of the work on the plates .
like drilling the 8 spindle holes and cutting the raw plates.
No one will aruge the 2 facts
FF IS STRONGER THAN SF
AND
DISK BRAKES ARE BETTER IF YOU USE THEM ON FF WITH ALL TOY PARTS.

???? Now you're getting screwy. The FF rear from SOR comes with everything but the diff. Toss a used SF diff in for what... $50-$100? So I'm not sure why you are talking about the additional expense of an axle shaft and an FZJ80 locking diff.

If you want rear disc brakes that will add a little. A couple of rotors and a pair of calipers, $20 worth of machine work to the hubs and a pair of brackets (easy to make, BTDT).

But not nearly as expensive as sacrificing a good front end to get all of the components that you need for this conversion. Or the machine work. And then your own labor. Drive flanges are not expensive, but don't forget that cost. too. You did mention the custom axle shafts at least.

In some parts of the US a good disc brake front end runs over $600-$700 dollars.

In one breath you allude to difficulty finding an FF axle Shaft. if you want to go with an OEM FF rear. But then when touting the advantage of your conversion, you nonchalantly suggest just getting a pair of them. ????

Also your machine shop cost is probably low for most people. Even IF you take them all of the dimensions and measurements (don't forget your time to determine all of that and put it into some sort of format for the machinist to work from.



And I will argue, that while an FF axle is stronger if you are carrying loads and applying power, for most of the folks reading this list, the load carrying capability is not that big a deal. FF stronger, sure. Has other advantages to (mainly the ability to retain the wheel in the event of an axle failure and still be road worthy). FF is also more maintenance demanding and more work. An SF can basically be ignored and abused. An FF rear requires pretty much the same amount of attention as a front axle. When used with large tires the Toyota FF rears are known for a tendency to loosen and shear the studs and pins which secure the axle flange. These can be upgraded to address this, but it is not something that should be ignored. The SF on the other hand... again, abuse and ignore seems to work pretty well for a lot of people.

So again, while your approach is intriguing, unless you are working in an area where there is not reasonable source of OEM FF rears it really seems to me to be a solution in search of a problem.


Mark...

 

[Poser]

The only part that I would grant Toyota vs. Chevy for a disk brake on a rear full floater is an integral parking brake, which the swap you've designed doesn't incorporate.

Which is a drum brake assembly inside the hat on the rotor, and you would need to get everything from a full float disc brake Toyota axle and swap it over to make it work.

 

[Poser]

DISK BRAKES ARE BETTER IF YOU USE THEM ON FF WITH ALL TOY PARTS.

Could you please expand on this?







My junk stops great with a combination of Toyota brake master cylinder pushing fluid to four identical GM full-size calipers, and also worked great when I had a mix of Toyota front disc brakes and a semi-float rear axle with a GM rear disc brake conversion installed on it. Again, this was before IH8MUD and other internet lists, forums, boards and the like.



I fail to see any inherent virtue in using all Toyota brake components.





Is this in your truck moving it down the road and stopping it regularly?


How many miles do you have on this set up?

 

[Mark W]

The only part that I would grant Toyota vs. Chevy for a disk brake on a rear full floater is an integral parking brake, which the swap you've designed doesn't incorporate.

Personally I prefer the four piston, fixed caliper of the Toyota design over the single piston floating caliper of the Chevy. The floating caliper has a tendency to freeze on the mounting pins when used under adverse conditions. This leads to uneven and rapid wear of the pads and the rotor.

And the braking force is more balanced fore and aft with the Toy setup. Especially if you use the large/small piston calipers of the original Cruiser front system for the rear axle and use the large/large piston calipers of the later model minis up front.

The GM conversion is simple and inexpensive, but IHMO the conversion using the Toy setup is a bit better.


Mark...

 

[grant5127]

Warn used to make a kit. I don't know why they don't anymore but I wasn't aware of any problems with it.

I have the complete kit.....New in Box.....

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I have the complete kit.....New in Box.....

I've got a Warn "cutaway" version that was used for sales & demo's back in the day... Interested in it as a sales tool for your kit

 

[Scottb]

If you don`t want, or need lock out hubs, why not use drive flanges?
http://frontrangeoffroadfab.com/nfo...id=47&osCsid=00f6fdaa9e431fc767ac47197567d639

 

[Vicm]

I have few more info for any anyone interested.
1- Your choice of wheel hub is very important, because of the variety that is out there.
Early landcruiser (up to 80 I believe) with disc wheel hubs and 79-85 Toy trucks hubs are the same; with 2 differences.
79-85 Toy trucks hubs,rotors,calipers.
Rotors have 8 holes. Only 2 bolts used to bolt the rotor and the thickness of the EOM rotor is about 1/2". The 6 wheel studs have to go through the rotors. Bugers to take out. The OEM caliper has smaller gap between the pads.

Landcruisers hubs,rotors,calipers
Thicker rotors, that gap is larger between pads, the rotors are bolted with 6 studs, wheel studs don't go through the rotors , easier to take out.
There are after market rotors that come with 8 holes, listed for both landcruisers and toy trucks, Never had them on, so your guess is as good as mine.
Any later Toy trucks with lockouts have exactly the same hubs as above with rotors that mount the same way as landcruisers, but the rotor location and hight
is different , they wont work unless you make the plate to adapt to them.
Later Landcruisers , I have no idea.
2- If you want to go with this conversion , need you be remainded.
FF require more Miant specially if you use your trcuk in the wet and mud.
so take that into account if you plan to make axle shafts.
I prefer thicker axle shafts with the EOM SF seals. Place the seals into the housings. This way axles and seals are not disturbed during maint of wheel hub bearings and rotors.
Later calipers will work,and 79-85 will not, because of the smaller gab, unless you go with OEM toy truck thiner rotors.
2-This was done to a stock fj40 sf rear axle housings. As far as doing to other rear axle from other fjs or trucks that use e-brake with cables and bellcrancks. The toyota supra with rear disc brakes uses the same setup for the E-brake. I only know , this from what I have seen the FROR site , also a friend of mine has 88 supra ,but don't take my word for it so check things out out for yourself .
Actually, I would like to get more info on the whole rear disc brake axles of the Toy supra, so if you have any to help me with, I will be very greaful to you.
I do not think the runout of the wheel hub rotors will be a problem, with the FF with disc brakes, because it would not be that much and hardly effect in the internals just like in the front.