Front Swaybar Removal with AHC - Any Negatives? (2 Viewers)

[ExpeditionMan]

For those of you with more knowledge regarding AHC... what impacts might front sway bar removal create on system operation? Were the 200 series a traditional suspension system I would not hesitate, but I enjoy the benefits of near stock AHC and want to retain as much comfort as possible while improving capability slightly.

If you're wondering why I am asking then watch this video:

 

[tbisaacs]

lots of folks here have done it. Would suggest you spend an hour to remove it, drive it and see if you like it.

 

[ExpeditionMan]

lots of folks here have done it. Would suggest you spend an hour to remove it, drive it and see if you like it.

I suspect no difference going straight down the road, my question is around whether I am putting any real additional strain on AHC during cornering. Basically where the additional spring rate of the loaded swaybar would act on the suspension.

 

[tbisaacs]

I personally would not be concerned about extra strain on AHC. It's not a fragile system—you wont hurt anything.

 

[nwfl4runner]

I suspect no difference going straight down the road, my question is around whether I am putting any real additional strain on AHC during cornering. Basically where the additional spring rate of the loaded swaybar would act on the suspension.

You’ll absolutely notice it when cornering, to the point that even slightly winding roads in comfort mode feels sketchy, and that’s with my front end quite a bit wider than most.

At the same time I much prefer more serious off-roading with mine removed - as good as AHC is, not fighting the swaybar does make for a more pleasant experience.

 

[TeCKis300]

I think it's useful to consider the sway bars contribution to high speed stability and accident avoidance. Even as off-road performance is a priority, I'll still doing long highway miles. It's rare, but I've had to do evasive maneuvers and IMO, that's where the sway bar will continue to earn its keep. Especially as the car gets taller with bigger tire and sometimes heavy overlanding weight, the more important it might be.

I'm in the middle of clearancing for 37s and the sway bar needs to move forward a bit. I'll spend the extra effort to keep one in.

Back to the goal of this thread, there's some developments by @PerryParts that might fulfill what you're looking for, while keeps some measure of stability

Sway Bar Tuning and Musings

I've been knee deep doing a body lift so here's some quick notes. - Washers were a quick and dirty way to test a concept. They are large enough cover the witness marks of contact so that's what I went with. It's wet my appetite to chase more. @PerryParts , definitely interested and I'll...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[Killacaviar]

Mine’s been off for 2 years. It’s tippier in comfort mode on the rode for sure. For me, it has increased offroad comfort and articulation in a meaningful way and really emphasizes the differences between S, N and C modes.

I’ve had a cruiser with Kdss and the LX with and Without sway bars. I regularly tow a 4-5k pound trailer and still have yet to find a situation where I prefer it on.

With the exception of towing and butts in the seats (3kids), I run pretty light.

 

[MTKID]

I have run without the front swaybar for quite a while and, although I can certainly tell a difference with it removed during aggressive driving, I feel like AHC Sport mode knows what I am trying to accomplish and compensates nicely. In fact, it blows me away how planted it still feels even with very large tires.

This being said, I know the specific circumstance where it would still be very beneficial is with an evasive maneuver. The “moose test” swerve test throws the body weight from one side and back to the other and that is where I feel the swaybar would still shine. I have not had to make such a maneuver yet since removing it. This is something that should be in the back of your mind if you choose to remove it. I have no problem swerving one direction, but swerving back throws the weight back in the opposite direction and can certainly cause a possible roll-over scenario. Especially how some overlanders like to load their rigs down with weight up high on the roof rack.

If I enter a turn very smooth, even far above the posted recommended speed, with the AHC in sport mode, I can maintain the proper steering angle to keep the vehicle planted (not flat, but not out of control) and it might surprise some how well these rigs can do. At least mine feels great, IMO. I have driven some sporty cars, and raced a little SCCA a long time ago, so I have a little bit of experience pushing a few cars close to their limit, but I am by no means a race car driver. I just play one when I’m by myself on the local mountain pass.

Off-road, I feel like AHC benefits tremendously from the front swaybar being removed. When we lift these with a mild sensor lift, or drive off-road in High mode, the pressures are increased and the rig will struggle to allow the IFS to independently cycle to bump at slow speeds. Especially when the two sides are still connected by the swaybar. When you remove the swaybar, each side works so much better, independently, and the higher pressures are felt less, IMO. Not perfect still, but much better.

It’s certainly worth a test on a weekend you’ll be out on a trail, maybe have a little highway drive to the trail to feel that difference. But make sure you try to soak the bolts in penetrant oil, so you can remove them without damaging them. They’re in a tricky spot that can hold debris and moisture and some have said they break bolts or damage threads easily.

Kai’s video was spot on with my experience. The 200 rear end still flexes to maximum articulation even with the rear swaybar attached and feels like it almost forces better front end articulation. And if you can picture how any vehicle reacts with a stiffer rear swaybar, it begins to lift the rear inside tire a little around a turn, which allows the vehicle to rotate a little better and allows you to use a little counter steer instead of having the front end push from understeer. Most automobile drivers prefer a little oversteer instead of understeer.

 

[TomEf]

Would there be a good way to make a quick disconnect endlink for the front sway bar? I had a set on my old 4Runner (mostly because an original one broke) and they worked okay but weren't perfect.

 

[NYC570]

Would there be a good way to make a quick disconnect endlink for the front sway bar? I had a set on my old 4Runner (mostly because an original one broke) and they worked okay but weren't perfect.

Have you seen the new disconnects from apex designs? It looks like a quality product but pricey and the installation is very involved.

 

[Heckraiser]

I've been mulling over quick disconnects too. The problem is where do you put the swaybar out of the way once it's disconnected? If you just disconnect one end, the bar will still interfere with the tie rod and LCA when articulating, which will make for some super annoying noises and maybe even break stuff. If you disconnect both sides, it will dangle out in front of the truck like catfish whiskers.

With LCP 80 series disconnects, you disconnect both ends of the swaybar and then swing it up and pin it to the frame so it doesn't interfere with anything.

I've thought about making something like this, but I think it would require swaybar relocation like KDSS relocation plates, only they would have to move the bar forward a lot more than an inch in order to be able to clear the tie rod so you can swing the bar up and pin it to the frame somewhere out of the way.

 

[Heckraiser]

While we're on the topic,

Does anyone with more engineering background than me have a good idea whether having a bent swaybar endlink would fundamentally change the effectiveness of the the bar, assuming you could make it strong and rigid enough not to break? I.e. if the force is not being exerted straight down on the LCA cradle, does it become less effective? I'm familiar with mounting the endlink outside the LCA cradle, but even that I think would not be enough offset to have a straight endlink for the distance you'd need to move the swaybar forward to clear the tie rod and swing it out of the way.

 

[linuxgod]

I've been mulling over quick disconnects too. The problem is where do you put the swaybar out of the way once it's disconnected? If you just disconnect one end, the bar will still interfere with the tie rod and LCA when articulating, which will make for some super annoying noises and maybe even break stuff. If you disconnect both sides, it will dangle out in front of the truck like catfish whiskers.

With LCP 80 series disconnects, you disconnect both ends of the swaybar and then swing it up and pin it to the frame so it doesn't interfere with anything.

I've thought about making something like this, but I think it would require swaybar relocation like KDSS relocation plates, only they would have to move the bar forward a lot more than an inch in order to be able to clear the tie rod so you can swing the bar up and pin it to the frame somewhere out of the way.

FYI - Because of the bumper frame mounts, you can’t move the sway bar more than 1.5” forward. That’s part of why the standard KDSS relo is 1”

 

[linuxgod]

While we're on the topic,

Does anyone with more engineering background than me have a good idea whether having a bent swaybar endlink would fundamentally change the effectiveness of the the bar, assuming you could make it strong and rigid enough not to break? I.e. if the force is not being exerted straight down on the LCA cradle, does it become less effective? I'm familiar with mounting the endlink outside the LCA cradle, but even that I think would not be enough offset to have a straight endlink for the distance you'd need to move the swaybar forward to clear the tie rod and swing it out of the way.

View attachment 3696489

Also BTW, the LCA cradle is 1.5” deep. So to keep the links straight outside the cradle you’d have to shift the mounting point for the sway bar to the frame to be 1.5” forward.

I can’t answer your specific question but my gut says yes it will matter at least to some extent. As the downward force is now being pushed to the LCA at an angle rather than straight down.

For a number of reasons I think if you really wanted to do this you’d probably need to have a custom bar made or find one from another similar sized vehicle that might fit. Could something from a 100-series or Tundra fit?

 

[TeCKis300]

While we're on the topic,

Does anyone with more engineering background than me have a good idea whether having a bent swaybar endlink would fundamentally change the effectiveness of the the bar, assuming you could make it strong and rigid enough not to break? I.e. if the force is not being exerted straight down on the LCA cradle, does it become less effective? I'm familiar with mounting the endlink outside the LCA cradle, but even that I think would not be enough offset to have a straight endlink for the distance you'd need to move the swaybar forward to clear the tie rod and swing it out of the way.

View attachment 3696489

Yes, the sway bar becomes less effective, essentially reducing its spring rate to a degree. With the end link at a more extreme angle, some of the travel will be taken up with additional flex in the end link, its bushings, and even the sway bar locating bushings and LCA bushings. Rather than translating majority of the LCA vertical motions to the sway bar as designed, there's horizontal forces created.