Front End Issue (eating right front tire) (1 Viewer)

[mrsleeve]

Ok heres the deal.... I had a little bit of wandering issue, and my TRE's were old warn and getting a little sloppy, so I swapped all 4 out for Moog 555's set to FSM length and took it to my local tire shop to get the toe set. I have been really busy, and didnt think much of it for the last month or so, but got to doing some sunday maintenance and noticed it was eating the right front tire FAST but went straight down the road. Took it back and they set the toe again and they rotated the tires for me. In less than 100 miles I had very noticeable heal/toe wear on that right front again on a evenly worn just up from the rear and a good drift to the right.

So I took it the place that does nothing but alignments, and they tell me the toe was out by a 1/4 inch and that they took care of it and it should not pull anymore or wear things much. Still "feels" like something is a-miss in the front end with this alignment and tire noise seems to still be "more noticeable" than before any of this. Though this toe setting is better than the last it seems.

I just rebuilt the front knuckles with all new stuff last fall (8k miles ago) and the tire eating only has started AFTER new TRE's. Steering arm nuts are still tight, trunion cap bolts are still tight I am sitting on OME 61/62 with 30mm spacers in the front and tires are only 5k old (255/80/17). I did just have to reset my drivers side wheel bearing preload yesterday and I just checked them 7-8 days ago. Did notice that my actual tie rod does not have even thread showing from pass to driver side anymore even though thats the way I set them

Am I missing something here, I inspected my FCA bushes and pan hard bushes and from what I can see they look fine, a little dry but no visible cracking or dry rot that I can see with out disassembly anyway.

Edit: Is it really necessary to pull the pitman arm and dampener to swap out tre's on the draglink??? I just swapped the ends and that was that and reconnected the steering stabilizer last . Never touched the steering wheel or anything while the drag link was out.

 

[IronCladLou]

I may be missing something also, but you essentially can't have toe off only on one side. Making all of your toe adjustment on one side will simply result in the steering wheel not being centered. I think what really matters is "total toe". If you had too much toe out, it seems that the wear pattern would have been seen on both front tires.

I would suspect you have something else going on besides a toe issue.

 

[slow95z]

Bent housing?

 

[mrsleeve]

doubt its a bent housing, it just started to eat tires after the TREs and I haven't hit anything that hard. I am getting a similar wear pattern on the driver side, but not nearly as severe. I will post my specs this afternoon......

 

[bajaphile]

I would have put money on the steering arm nuts/studs.. But you said you've already checked them...

I'd also say that the fact you rebuilt the knuckles 8k miles ago is more of a culprit than the TRE's.

I'd just use an angle app on my phone and measure the rotors, knuckles, etc... see if anything is seriously off.

 

[LandCruisinMy93]

If one shoulder is ate up on one side on one corner and your rig wants to wander/pull to one side then you have a CAMBER issue. You need to have the front camber inspected. Camber issues most Likely resulting from worn or improperly installed trunnion bearing and pins. Or your wheel bearing preload and lock nuts weren't/aren't sufficient and the hub has backed down the spindle far enough to allow the hub to cock at an angle. Beside those two things, I would say your only other culprits would be an eccentric worn spindle which does happen from time to time or a Bent housing as previously mentioned. Either way, if your tires have only a few thousand on them I wouldn't hesitate to take them back with alignment paperwork in hand and tell them you wan to warranty the messed up tires.

 

[SmokingRocks]

Or your wheel bearing preload and lock nuts weren't/aren't sufficient and the hub has backed down the spindle far enough to allow the hub to cock at an angle.

This can happen with too much pre-load as well

 

[LandCruisinMy93]

This can happen with too much pre-load as well

That's why it says "isn't sufficient" instead of sufficiently tight or loose.

 

[SmokingRocks]

"Isn't sufficient" or rather insufficient always imply lack of something not an abundance. Don't take it personally, I was just making an observation to help the OP troubleshoot.

 

[mrsleeve]

Alright when I did the front knuckles it was everything new, Koyo trunions and wheel bearings, Pass side got a brand new spindle as well, was very meticulous with it, set wheel bearing preload at 20ft/lbs and that side is still tight with no play. Driver side just backed off in the last week to 10 days and even then just slightly....

Spec sheets for alignments all mirror the same thing its the Drivers side with a little bit of a camber issue (maybe I missed a shim on the reassembly on the drivers side trunnion) and caster is out a little bit due to the spacers and slightly higher than stock springs. The only major differences on these are the toe specs and every time they show as good when I left...... And again I had 5 or 6k miles on a new set of BFG KMII that were not showing this kind of ware, (got rid of them because I could not stand the noise and I went to a 17" wheel) and now the ST maxxs are only showing this type of wear in the last 1500 miles with about 4000mi on them including a trip from Tucson to Northern Montana before all this started. The only thing that I changed in the last 1500 miles was the TRE's
From spec sheet
Drivers:
Camber -0.2* (spec 0.3* -1.8*)
Caster 0.3* (spec 2*-4* )
Toe 0.05" ( spec 0.03" - 0.08")

Pass:
Camber 0.4*
Caster 0.2*
Toe 0.03"

Cross camber -0.6* (spec -0.8* - 0.8*)
Cross Caster 0.1* ( Spec -0.8* - 0.8*)
Total toe 0.9" (spec 0.05" - 0.15")

Went and pulled a tape on the front and back of the front tires and ended up with 1/8" of toe in so that seems to be correct now. I am at a loss inspected everything again and had the wife "jiggle" the wheel and everything is tight and moves in unison as it should. Other than seeing more exposed thread on one side than the other for both the TR and DL I dont see where there is anything that could be causing this other than maybe the tires them selves now and just need to keep a really close eye on them and see if the wear back flat or continue to get worse.

Thanks guys....

 

[LandCruisinMy93]

Alright when I did the front knuckles it was everything new, Koyo trunions and wheel bearings, Pass side got a brand new spindle as well, was very meticulous with it, set wheel bearing preload at 20ft/lbs and that side is still tight with no play. Driver side just backed off in the last week to 10 days and even then just slightly....

Spec sheets for alignments all mirror the same thing its the Drivers side with a little bit of a camber issue (maybe I missed a shim on the reassembly on the drivers side trunnion) and caster is out a little bit due to the spacers and slightly higher than stock springs. The only major differences on these are the toe specs and every time they show as good when I left...... And again I had 5 or 6k miles on a new set of BFG KMII that were not showing this kind of ware, (got rid of them because I could not stand the noise and I went to a 17" wheel) and now the ST maxxs are only showing this type of wear in the last 1500 miles with about 4000mi on them including a trip from Tucson to Northern Montana before all this started. The only thing that I changed in the last 1500 miles was the TRE's
From spec sheet
Drivers:
Camber -0.2* (spec 0.3* -1.8*)
Caster 0.3* (spec 2*-4* )
Toe 0.05" ( spec 0.03" - 0.08")

Pass:
Camber 0.4*
Caster 0.2*
Toe 0.03"

Cross camber -0.6* (spec -0.8* - 0.8*)
Cross Caster 0.1* ( Spec -0.8* - 0.8*)
Total toe 0.9" (spec 0.05" - 0.15")

Went and pulled a tape on the front and back of the front tires and ended up with 1/8" of toe in so that seems to be correct now. I am at a loss inspected everything again and had the wife "jiggle" the wheel and everything is tight and moves in unison as it should. Other than seeing more exposed thread on one side than the other for both the TR and DL I dont see where there is anything that could be causing this other than maybe the tires them selves now and just need to keep a really close eye on them and see if the wear back flat or continue to get worse.

Thanks guys....

Pretty sure your bearing preload is way too high. By nearly 400% if I remember correctly.
Preload procedure.
Tighten Inner nut to 45lb-ft rotate several times clockwise, several counter clockwise
Loosen Inner nut, repeat rotations. Repeat procedure 3 times. Tighten inner nut to 5lb-ft Or "hand tight" install tabbed washer install outer nut to 47lb-ft, use fish scale on top lug to pull...12lbs of force to rotate...if all is well bend tabs on washer in opposing directions if not...repeat procedure.

 

[mrsleeve]

lots of well documented instances of guys running 15-20ft/lbs preload settings on NEW bearings with out issue on the fronts. Its a BIG bearing and will tolerate it just fine. I might tear into that side soon and check and reset to 15 ft/lbs

 

[-Spike-]

This can happen with too much pre-load as well

Never seen or heard of a hub or assembly backing off or getting loose or in any other way cocking sideways due to too much preload. I can't think of a way this could happen, unless the bearings disintegrated, of course. I have many years and hard miles on 20 lbs of torque on the inside bearing nut with no issues, and many in my neighborhood run 30 lbs now, after getting some experience running higher preloads.

 

[SmokingRocks]

Too much preload can burn bearings and races, which can cause the hub to wobble. Ask me how I know.

rarely do bearings burn uniformly, they typically will burn one spot more than the other. If you ever experience this you can see the non-uniform wear pattern on the race.

They don't "back off" they start to wear and the hub then moves inboard. Ultimately the end of the spindle will contact the outer hub.

 

[Tools R Us]

Too much preload can burn bearings and races, which can cause the hub to wobble. Ask me how I know.

rarely do bearings burn uniformly, they typically will burn one spot more than the other. If you ever experience this you can see the non-uniform wear pattern on the race.

They don't "back off" they start to wear and the hub then moves inboard. Ultimately the end of the spindle will contact the outer hub.

How much preload does it take to cause this carnage?

 

[bajaphile]

I'd like to hear back what the issue was on this...Keep us posted.

 

[mrsleeve]

Still messing with it, and I do have some free play in the steering gear before any movement at the tires takes place, in other words I am getting about 1/16 of an inch movement at 3/9 on the wheels and with the steering wheel in a locked position, and the play in the steering wheel (not locked position) in FSM spec at 1 3/8". I went thought all the Steering arm Nuts/studs and truinon caps again I cant find anything that is lose fastener wise. In a desperation move I ordered new pan hard bushes even though they look ok, under load might be deflecting more than they are supposed to... I hate throwing parts at stuff, I dont mine while your in there kinda deals and it is a 19 year old unit..... I just cant find anything thats really worn or lose left in the front end.

Also as far as my camber issues go would a slightly lose WB cause a 1/2* negative camber. When I found it there was very very little play just barley enough to feel and hear a slight audible click, seems to me it would need to be a little more than that to make that much effect

 

[SmokingRocks]

How much preload does it take to cause this carnage?

Depends, if you torqued the hell out of the bearings they might burn up in 500 miles. I had mine a little too tight (maybe 60ft-lbs) on the front driver side and it took 10,000 miles to burn them up. When this happens you can't tell by checking the wheel for play like normal. You just feel it when you're driving.

 

[mrsleeve]

NO NO not that high, I have mine set at 230-240 INCH pounds as my Ft/lb Torque wrench 20 is the lowest setting and not as reliable as my Inch Pound wrench in the upper mid level of the scale

 

[jvazquez53]

You can check your toe in/out very easy. I put the front of the truck on jack stands, take a piece of chalk and make a mark on the center of the tires facing the front of the vehicle. Take a measurement from one mark to the other. Rotate both tires 180 degrees. Measure again. It should be about 1/8" difference from the front. If not, you need to adjust the rear tie rods.