fj80 1 : tercel 0

[semlin]

ok, so it's my brother's 91 FJ80, not mine, but it was my wife driving it when it happened. Some guy in a mid 90's tercel turns left right in front of her on a busy city street when she is doing 30 mph and she had no time even to lock the brakes before she totalled the front end of Tercel. Three witnesses came forward to support her and the guy admitted liability (he was turning into a church parking lot to attend a wedding and so distracted looking at his friends).

Anyway, I guess you can cross "no accidents" off the for sale sign on the 91. That being said, pretty incredible how tough this truck is. I am very glad she wasn't driving our Forester. Contact was the driver's side corner of the 80 to the tercel front ps wheelwell doing maybe 25 mph. The tercel pretty much no longer exists in front of the firewall.

The bumper of the 80 took most of the impact and is toast, and the front left frame horn got bent, plus the fascia piece that houses the grill and indicators is mushed up and got pushed in far enough top just nick the tranny cooler vanes. Otherwise not much. It drives fine. The headlight assembly is busted but the indicator and parking light lens are both intact and so is the grill. The hood is jogged out of alignment on the hinge bolts but not damaged. It came within a hair of doing no damage to the ds 1/4 panel but the very bottom tip got pushed in or else there would be no body or paintwork needed other than a new fascia piece and trim.

So this accident triggered a debate about my ARB bull bar. My wife cannot believe the difference in the damage between the vehicles and was very shaken up about what might have happened if she had hit the tercel in the passenger door. I keep telling her she would have had more time to brake before he could have gotten broadside on to her. She pointed out that if the regular bumper can do that, the bull bar might completely destroy another car. I guess she is right but I repeat that I am very glad she did not have the same accident in our Forester, especially as she would normally drive the Forester at least 10 mph faster. Nothing like airbag deployment to change your perspective on whether a big SUV is unfair.

Me, I'm checking the insurance to see if we can put an ARB bull bar on the front of the 91 instead of a new OEM bumper.

 

[Doc]

And because of this accident your wife DOESN'T want the ARB? I'm all for saving lives and humanity, but protect your family first! I see no reason to not get the ARB. I doubt your insurance will cover it. But you can put the shiney new bumper up on e-bay to help off-set the cost of the ARB.

 

[GXO]

Part it out!

(let me know if you do heheeheh)

 

[Brentbba]

You ought to be able to get the ins. check based on estimates to repair with OEM and then just purchase the ARB instead. It would pay for part of the ARB anyway.

Just glad your wife is ok.

 

[PHAEDRUS]

ICBC is weird to say the least so good luck and glad the better half is ok. Just tell steve it needs to be bobbed ala short bus now and taken off road.
Dave

 

[drohweder]

I personally like the idea of having my wife and kid behind and in front of a plate of steel. In any accident regardless of fault I want to tip the odds in the favor of family. Sorry but thats how I see it. I should get a break on life and health insurance premiums with this right??

 

[Riley]

Hi Simon - Glad your wife is ok. Marlene would probably have the same feelings about the ARB bumper as well.

Question - did the tercel airbag go off? I guess so given the damage.

Moral of story (for the tercel), don't get to weddings, especially if it's yours.

 

[alaskacruiser]

I don't know if the ARB necessarily gives you any added degree of safety in an accident like this one. Roos and deer are another story. The 80's crumple zones work for you in absorbing the impact, so I don't think having a "big plate of steel" in front of you helps in that regard.

The "big plate of steel" line of thinking went out with the tank-like cars of the 50's, when they realized that such a design protects the vehicle, but isn't necessarily best for the occupants inside. As for preventing damage to your 80 in an accident, ARBs are great.

 

[landtank]

Not sure how much crumple was built into the box frame :-\.

 

[PHAEDRUS]

I hate to agree with rich but he is right. there is no crumple zone on the ladder section of frame on a cruiser. now the unibody structure on top of that has crumple zones all through it. the only difference between the decelaration change wich has been beat to hell in the air bag threads is that the frame rail ends will not deflect up or down due to the mount design of the arb. I love mine, I see wrecked cars every day and I will not remove my arb.
Dave

 

[IdahoDoug]

You're kidding yourself if you don't think an ARB or other heavy aftermarket bumper doesn't add protection to the vehicle for its occupants. More mass and structural strength equals more protection up to a point, and that point is not even approached with this mod.

Here's a handy experiement for those who disagree. Take a square of cardboard 3 feet on a side and hold it in front of you like an ARB. Now jog straight into a tree, contacting it dead center. After you've iced your nose and the swelling in your eyes is down enough to see again, duplicate it with a square of quarter inch plywood.

Yes, I know this is simplistic and leaves plenty of room for discussion, but it makes the point about structure.

DougM

 

[landtank]

[quote author=IdahoDoug link=board=2;threadid=16504;start=msg158925#msg158925 date=1084849683]
Yes, I know this is simplistic and leaves plenty of room for discussion[/quote]

Your up Rich

 

[bad_religion_au]

well the australian gov recons there is no evidence to point to any added protection with a bullbar, but increases pedestrian injury risk (what were they doing on the f&^%ing road?)

so they want to add a fee to any bullbar equiped cars

 

[alaskacruiser]

IdahoDoug- your example makes no sense when it comes to the 80. We have several feet of hood in front of us to absorb impacts. Putting an almost non-deformable ARB in front of you means the initial impact force will be transmitted more severely to the occupants instead of being absorbed by the front crumple zone.

Here's a better example for those who disagree: take a rectangular cardboard box 5 feet long and run into a tree with the box closed on the impacting end. Notice how the deformable cardboard absorbs the impact and you feel relatively little impact force. Now put a solid, hard-to-deform sheet of metal on the impacting end and run into the tree. After you regain consciousness from the harsh impact, you'll understand how, although your cardboard box has received less damage with the metal sheet on the end, much more impact force was transmitted to you.

 

[RavenTai]

I'll buy the tree analogy (concrete barrier) but what about running into another guy with a box on his head? in that case I would rater have the sheet metal, make use of his crumple zone more than mine (less cab intrusion), most accidents, (especially sober ones) are car hits car not car hits Immovable object

this is one reason I do not like the government crash testing they use a concrete wall, and in these tests small cars often get their highest safety rating, but that does not jive with real world injury data,

1996-1998 injury theft and collision cost

http://www.hwysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/ictl/previous/ictl_0999.pdf

you will notice the huge difference in injury as the vehicle gets larger and heavier the safest being trucks,

fatal crashes 94-97 model cars:
http://www.hwysafety.org/srpdfs/sr3507.pdf

same story

when I was a kid my mom had a small 4cyl Subaru, were were driving through unfamiliar country roads in the rain and she ran a stop sign T-boning a full size van, the van spun around in several 360's coming to rest with a major dent in the sheet metal of the side but no real structural damage and drove away, the Subaru was totaled the front looked like an accordion most of it disappearing into the cab foot well half the size they should be, both me and my mom got away with only cuts and bruises (seat belts) but 10MPH more at impact could have caused major injurry or death for us

some may think this is sinister but if I have the opportunity to tip the scales of chance towards my self and my passengers or a stranger I will choose the safety of those close to me, and I think most of us would, this is why I am still driving an SUV when gas is above 2$/gal


semlin Glad to hear no one was hurt, that had to be embarrassing for the other driver causing a wreck in front of all of his friends

 

[cruiserdan]

Speaking of T-bones,

It would be interesting to study the aftermath of a side-impact collision where an 80 with rock sliders (such as Slee or Hanna) is struck broadside. I gotta believe that the occupants of the 80 would be much better off than stock. Clearly the frame would likely be damaged beyond repair but saved lives would be worth it.

 

[PHAEDRUS]

Alaska,
all due respect here but have you looked at the frame rails on the 80?? have you seen any "crumple zones" under there. nope you havent cause they dont exist. the only crumpling factor is a peice of steel ie the bumper. the arb just substitutes the thinner facotry steel for some heavier gauge steel. that is all. Now the unibody structure of the truck is a whole different demon, and all of this is completely unaffected by the addition of any type of bumper you add to it.
I understand the physics involved in a crash better than most people. It is my profession and I dare say I am pretty damn good at it. So until you or anyone here sees frame buckling in an impact due to the arb I will have to say that it will not happen. the transferrance of force will not be multiplied by the arb it will just affect the truck in a different way. It will not transfer directly from the frame of the truck to the occupants. this is a unibody on ladder set up and the body itself is mounted on bushings to the frame. there is some give there and some movement will happen. the biggest risk of serious inury in an accident is intrusion into the passenger compartment. I do not see how the arb will do anything but help you in this regard.
one thing for sure I love my 80, I bought mine after doing an estimate and repairing one that had been t boned at 35 mph by a drunk in an 85 buick regal. The drunk hit the cruiser and bounced into two other cars. the 80 had a 6k repair bill but he was able to drive home and to dans question there was no frame damage to the vehicle whatsoever. stock height no sliders on a 91. damage was to the uniside the rocker and both doors. if memory serves the B pillar was also replaced.
Dave

 

[scottm]

[quote author=Brentbba link=board=2;threadid=16504;start=msg158549#msg158549 date=1084819472]
You ought to be able to get the ins. check based on estimates to repair with OEM and then just purchase the ARB instead. It would pay for part of the ARB anyway.[/quote]

That's what I did after hitting a deer.

What will be different hitting a solid object with an ARB? There would be some crumple of the front of the truck with or without it, but I'd expect more efficient transfer of energy to the frame and eventually the occupants with the ARB. I assume the ARB only helps protect the front of my truck (and looks cool), no other mechanical safety benefit.

I drive hundreds of miles a week at night in Michigan. I counted nine deer carcasses on the way home Sunday night, and I'm sure many more were hit.

 

[PHAEDRUS]

the only difference will be the amount of force neccesary to bend the steel. just for giggles say it takes 50 pounds of force to bend the front bumper back one inch on the stock bumper. SO 50 pounds of force is exerted on the bumper and the bumper hold and then bends back, again just for giggles here 20 pounds of that force is transferred into the frame of the truck and travels back.
in this totally and unscientific way 60% of the initial impact energy is absorbed by the bending of the stock front bumper and only 40% carries on closer to the passenger compartment.
by the same hypothetical an arb if hit with 50 puonds of force will not bend at all therefore all 50 pounds of force will tarnsfer back inot the rest of the structure and possibly have more of an effect on the passengers in a crash.
Does this make sense to anyone. I am trying simplify here so that those who have never dealt with this will be able to understand how this works.
this is the really simple way to look at it and I feel that it misses a few points. the biggest being impact height. and deflection. ever notice the angles on an arb or a slee? notice how if you hit anything the forces will be directed down or to the sides?? lets face it the most likely event in an accident you will have is you vs car. at stock height the arb type bar puts the point of impact higher than a stock bumper. therefore the chance of yo meeting bumper to bumper that was small just got smaller. chances are you will miss their bumper completely and go into the softer upper structure of the vehicle. sucks for whoever you hit but is good for you and yours.
NOw to bring the 50 pounds back in. SO the cruiser with the stock bumper hits the honda civic on its way to the powder coater, partial head on collision. agian jsut for simplicity 50 pounds of foce is directed at the front bumper on the cruiser and 20 of it is not absorbed by the bumper.
same situation with the cruiser with arb. the 50 pounds is closer to 30 now that you are hitting uniboy structure and not reinforced bumper points on the other veh. so the arb did not absorb any energy it just minimized the amount of energy that the whole thing started with.
I hope this kind of makes sense. if it doesnt, sorry I tried but it is hard to show without a few cars to smash around.
Dave

 

[semlin]

I am hesitant to wade in but my observation is that it is all about the mass of the truck and the strength and rigidity of the frame/bumper connection.

my wife feels she was not that badly jolted by the impact because basically the truck cut into the tercel like a knife into butter and the stop was almost gradual. From this I assume that the mass in an 80 is largely transfered to the frame which si strong enough to have witheld the opposing force in that impact and held its shape so as to penetrate the other vehicle. Accordingly, if you were to hit something in an 80 with as much mass and frame rigidity as an 80 look out, but if you hit something smaller or flimsier, you have a definite advantage. Applying this to an ARB, and assuming the connection between the ARB and the frame holds without bending, my feeling is you will have so much mass and inertia you will basically snow plow other smaller vehicles out of your way but once you exceed the force necessary to sheer the ARB mount or make the frame buckle, you will suffer serious damage as the ARB moves back into the engine compartment, although maybe no worse than if you hit with the same force with no ARB. . Since the ARB froms another rigid cross member and reinforces the front frame horns you are basically increasing the amount of force required before your vehicle gets damaged, but risking making the damage worse once you cross that line.