Filling my 62 with R12 (2 Viewers)

[bkfitz]

... so last year I found a local radiator repair shop to fill my truck up with R12... cost me ~ $125 for what I believe to be ~ 1lb of R12. Truck still cools 12 months later, but just not quite as good as the day it was filled... so I presume it has a sloooowwww leak. This year, in order to save a few bucks I've been lurking on Craigslist for some R12 and was able to pick up a 12oz can for $20. it looks like this:

http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mgh-_EuGOD45PZupSKji2uw.jpg

UPDATE: This is the can I bought, not the "oil charge" one linked above:

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxMjAw/z/2cAAAOxyhXRTOgJ~/$_35.JPG

Questions:

1. Should I try to find a 'professional' to tap this can and put it in my system or can I just buy a 'tap' apparatus from ebay and do it myself.
2. If i try to fill myself, do I just tap the can, put hose on fill valve, turn on AC, start car, open valve, wait a few minutes, done? What if there is still some left in the can when I'm done... any way to save it for next year?

Thanks!

 

[Spook50]

Unless you want to buy the servicing and charging equipment, your best bet is to have a professional shop do it. R12 and its related supplies are getting harder and harder to find, so anything lost to atmosphere is lost for good thanks to the eco nazis. If you had several cans (about 6 cans of DuPont stuff in my shop that I've been hanging on to) it'd be worth it to get the needed equipment, but not for just one can.

 

[SteveH]

I did my 62 last fall this way - I can that I hoarded from years back and a eBay filling kit ($4). The AC center vent temp went from 76 to 44F, after adding one can.

2. If i try to fill myself, do I just tap the can, put hose on fill valve, turn on AC, start car, open valve, wait a few minutes, done? What if there is still some left in the can when I'm done... any way to save it for next year?


Start by reading the FSM for information on proper AC function - find the sight glass, watch for bubbles and get an understanding of how it should look. If you see continuous bubbles in the sight glass while the AC is cycling, it's low on refrigerant.

To check for leaks, start by looking for oil stains near any fittings, which indicates a leak. Replace o-rings if you find a leak - tightening a fitting won't help if an o-ring is bad.

Check the output temp of your center vent with the AC on high - if it's in the 40s, don't add any Freon. If its 55-80 degrees F, you probably can safely add a full can. You can overcharge these systems, so don't go hog-wild adding R12. Start with one can....

No - you cannot save R12 in the can for next year - it will leak past the cheap, eBay filler attachment. To add a can, pick a hot day (important - ideally, it'd be 85F), start the car, turn on the AC and put the fan on high. Connect the R12 filler fitting to the LOW side (never the HIGH side). Keep the can of R12 upright (you want vapor entering the system, not liquid). Pierce the can and back the valve out, and as the Freon enters the system, the can will get very cold. Prepare a large measuring cup of boiling water (ahead of time) and immerse the can into the hot water, to help chase the rest of the R12 out of the can. Always keep the can upright, which is easy when you submerse the bottom in the cup of hot water.

While doing this, watch the sight glass and monitor the interior AC temps from the center vent. Buy a probe-type AC thermometer. If you get a nice comfy, low temp, then quit. Buy some more $20 cans of R12 for next year - $20 is as cheap as it gets, these days. And buy some R-134a for your next Land Cruiser, as they will someday prohibit the sale of that, and already have in Wisconsin.


Steve

 

[SteveH]

I just noticed this: your link
http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mgh-_EuGOD45PZupSKji2uw.jpg

is for an oil charge, not for a can of R12. Adding an oil charge is NOT what you need. You need this:

You only need an oil charge if you have replaced the compressor or somehow lost a great deal of oil from your R12 system. Keep the oil charge on hand, but you should not install it for your problem here.

BTW - R12 can sometimes be found at garage sales and flea markets. I got a can from a guy who was going to give it to the Hazmat collection site.

 

[Living in the Past]

They use to sell simple kit that fit those cans and had a short hose with a valve. But if your not sure what your doing I would have a professional do the job. The picture you posted says refrigerant oil charge. That would be different than straight refrigerant. It would be a mix of Freon gas and oil. Having too much oil is not any better than not having enough. Unlike Freon is stays in a liquid state while Freon changes gas to liquid and then back again. Have you checked the sight glass in the receiver? I worked as a HVAC tech for many years. This is one of those fields if your not sure it's better to pay a professional then messing something up. It is also a field I've seen many people get ripped off for the same reason, don't understand it. Kind of like the auto mechanic who tells you your muffler bearings are bad.

 

[Landpimp]

I had the local Toyota dealer do my R12 in the 60 a few years ago, I had a bunch of cans of the stuff($1 a can at garage sale), went well and they charged me for 1 hour. at one point when I got the 60 15 years ago, it would blow below freezing out of the vents.....it was very nice. Now its in the high 30's-low 40's...which seems fine

last year we took our 62 in, took my R12, well I guess the one guy that had the R12 valve or whatever was gone, so they converted it to R134, it was under $200....figured finding someone to do the R12 was just going to get harder and harder....the 134 cools great

 

[bkfitz]

Yeah sorry... mine says refrigerant 12 not oil charge... butnits made by "chargette"

 

[bkfitz]

I did my 62 last fall this way - I can that I hoarded from years back and a eBay filling kit ($4). The AC center vent temp went from 76 to 44F, after adding one can.

2. If i try to fill myself, do I just tap the can, put hose on fill valve, turn on AC, start car, open valve, wait a few minutes, done? What if there is still some left in the can when I'm done... any way to save it for next year?


Start by reading the FSM for information on proper AC function - find the sight glass, watch for bubbles and get an understanding of how it should look. If you see continuous bubbles in the sight glass while the AC is cycling, it's low on refrigerant.

To check for leaks, start by looking for oil stains near any fittings, which indicates a leak. Replace o-rings if you find a leak - tightening a fitting won't help if an o-ring is bad.

Check the output temp of your center vent with the AC on high - if it's in the 40s, don't add any Freon. If its 55-80 degrees F, you probably can safely add a full can. You can overcharge these systems, so don't go hog-wild adding R12. Start with one can....

No - you cannot save R12 in the can for next year - it will leak past the cheap, eBay filler attachment. To add a can, pick a hot day (important - ideally, it'd be 85F), start the car, turn on the AC and put the fan on high. Connect the R12 filler fitting to the LOW side (never the HIGH side). Keep the can of R12 upright (you want vapor entering the system, not liquid). Pierce the can and back the valve out, and as the Freon enters the system, the can will get very cold. Prepare a large measuring cup of boiling water (ahead of time) and immerse the can into the hot water, to help chase the rest of the R12 out of the can. Always keep the can upright, which is easy when you submerse the bottom in the cup of hot water.

While doing this, watch the sight glass and monitor the interior AC temps from the center vent. Buy a probe-type AC thermometer. If you get a nice comfy, low temp, then quit. Buy some more $20 cans of R12 for next year - $20 is as cheap as it gets, these days. And buy some R-134a for your next Land Cruiser, as they will someday prohibit the sale of that, and already have in Wisconsin.


Steve

Great advise Steve thx! One follow up question. How can you "overfill" the system? Last time I had it filled, the radiator guy just filled it until there were no more bubbles in the sight-glass and then stopped. Is this the recommended way of determining filled vs. overfilled?

 

[Spike Strip]

Well, they still sell R12 in any Autozone in Mexico, but you gotta dodge the flying lead...

 

[SteveH]

Some Toyota manuals (and almost any other) give a pretty clear description of what 'full' is, based on the presence of sight glass bubbles. When fully charged, you should rarely/occasionally see bubbles in the sight glass - you should see an intermittent stream of them during compressor cycling, but no bubbles most of the time. This is unscientific, but you can also use center vent temps (fan on high) and pressures to check how full it is. If you see bubbles all the time in the sight glass, you're still undercharged.

If you add some Freon and get center vent temps in the 40s, and just a few bubbles in the sight glass, then quit. You don't want to open a precious can of R12 just to use 3 oz. in your truck, and let the rest leak out over the next year. If you use a partial can, you can find an old-car buddy with an R12 system and dump the rest of the can in his system, of course.

Recall that most AC systems show the recommended charge, by weight. I'm recharging a Camry and it says 1.8 lbs, which is almost exactly 2 cans of R-134a. I will start with that, and then monitor bubbles in the sight glass, and temps, and decide whether to add more. I realize this 'number of pounds' thing only works if the system is fully discharged, so it won't work for you.

 

[GreyGoat]

Get it drained and convert over to r-134a. It's easier than you think, and cheap. I just used a kit from Autozone and it worked like a charm. Comes with hardware to convert, 4 cans, and a fill nozzle with a pressure gauge on it. $40.

Worked great in Moab last weekend. I'll let you know how it does in 90-100 heat soon enough lol.

 

[Spiva]

Get it drained and convert over to r-134a. It's easier than you think, and cheap. I just used a kit from Autozone and it worked like a charm. Comes with hardware to convert, 4 cans, and a fill nozzle with a pressure gauge on it. $40.

Worked great in Moab last weekend. I'll let you know how it does in 90-100 heat soon enough lol.

When you get the R-12 drained is there any 'flush' that has to be done before adding R-134? I've read they're not compatible, so is draining/recovery of the r-12 enough to keep it from mixing with the new r-134?

 

[Spike Strip]

Yes, there's a solvent flush available. Also, I think you have to use different O-rings. I had mine switched to 134 when I installed a new compressor, so I didn't need to do that, but it's best if done by a pro shop.

http://www.e38.org/pparish/flushing.htm

 

[Spiva]

Yes, there's a solvent flush available. Also, I think you have to use different O-rings. I had mine switched to 134 when I installed a new compressor, so I didn't need to do that, but it's best if done by a pro shop.

http://www.e38.org/pparish/flushing.htm

Thanks Spike... I figured draining and refilling sounded too good/easy to be true. I definitely don't want to screw this up, and open a big ... I'll pay someone to do it right the first time.

 

[tag3]

Guys at the radiator shop switched mine to 134. New drier and some o-rings. Seems like it was around $120 with a bring back to check if full after a month or two.

 

[White Stripe]

R12 really is pretty terrible for the atmosphere.I went to class on how bad it eats ozone. Converting to 134 is the best route I think. You should replace all the orings and the dryer, but thats not hard and plus most fj60 orings by now aren't in the best of shape anyway. R12 is soooo old now. The last time a new car came with r12 is 20 years ago.

 

[GeologistFelix]

The thing to consider with converting from R12 to R134a is that R12 is a better coolant (more cooling for the size of compressor), but the AC system in a 60 is beefy enough that even with R134a, it's got enough oomph for all but the hottest weather. Being in SC, you won't get the Arizona/Sahara Desert types of temperatures where R12 might make a different.

 

[Elbert]

Great advise Steve thx! One follow up question. How can you "overfill" the system? Last time I had it filled, the radiator guy just filled it until there were no more bubbles in the sight-glass and then stopped. Is this the recommended way of determining filled vs. overfilled?

This is exactly the way you fill up (charge) a A/C system with a sight glass using R12.

 

[Living in the Past]

The thing to consider with converting from R12 to R134a is that R12 is a better coolant (more cooling for the size of compressor), but the AC system in a 60 is beefy enough that even with R134a, it's got enough oomph for all but the hottest weather. Being in SC, you won't get the Arizona/Sahara Desert types of temperatures where R12 might make a different.

In AZ and I will keep my FJ62 with R12. Being a old A/C it's not hard to do. As for seeing bubbles when it a 120 degrees and it's harder to get rid of the heat it possible there might be some bubbles since the gas has to release heat to condense to a liquid. You want to see those bubbles disappear spray water on the condenser while it's running. This will also wash dirt off the condenser coil which helps with the heat transfer.

 

[White Stripe]

The thing is, a r12 system by now is pretty old. After 20 years the whole system could use new 0rings, dryer, and expansion valve(they don't work as well after a while) and pressure switch. Plus some shops have contaminated r12 in their machines. If you can even find a shop that does r12 anymore. Once converted to 134a it will be easier to find a shop to service it. And if you do get a leak with 134a its not as big of a deal-its just a greenhouse gas.