Driving part time 4WD truck in snow (1 Viewer)

[ozarkmud]

Going back and forth between AWD and 4WD (different rigs), 4WD in a corner will tend to be a little less smooth and will be "twitchy." It's not bad at all, but you're correcting more often.

That said, I've done some research on this and have put some thought into AWD. AWD (and 4WD) can give you a false sense of confidence in the snow compared to FWD/RWD. You'll get moving a lot more easily, but you don't stop any faster or corner any better. So it can be very nice on say a hill that you need to get up, but that hill that you got up with AWD you might slide down when you use your brakes.

Limiting your drive traction intuitively shows you how bad the conditions are, and probably is a great encourager to use winter tires.

Of course there's those hills that you can't get up without AWD or 4WD. Although I'm not sure how often you can't get up a hill like that with winter tires, with just FWD or RWD.

Just thought I'd share these thoughts since I hadn't seen it suggested much. A lot of people talk about AWD or 4WD being safer in the winter, but in some ways it doesn't make sense. It certainly helps you move, but maybe not more safely.

 

[ZackR]

Going back and forth between AWD and 4WD (different rigs), 4WD in a corner will tend to be a little less smooth and will be "twitchy." It's not bad at all, but you're correcting more often.

That said, I've done some research on this and have put some thought into AWD. AWD (and 4WD) can give you a false sense of confidence in the snow compared to FWD/RWD. You'll get moving a lot more easily, but you don't stop any faster or corner any better. So it can be very nice on say a hill that you need to get up, but that hill that you got up with AWD you might slide down when you use your brakes.

Limiting your drive traction intuitively shows you how bad the conditions are, and probably is a great encourager to use winter tires.

Of course there's those hills that you can't get up without AWD or 4WD. Although I'm not sure how often you can't get up a hill like that with winter tires, with just FWD or RWD.

Just thought I'd share these thoughts since I hadn't seen it suggested much. A lot of people talk about AWD or 4WD being safer in the winter, but in some ways it doesn't make sense. It certainly helps you move, but maybe not more safely.

In my experience AWD is better for cornering in the snow because if you do start to lose grip applying a little bit of power will pull you through the corner. When I first bought my cruiser it had all season highway tires and I ended up sideways unexpectedly in some packed snow. I was able to apply throttle while steering into the slide and the front tires pulled me through. Definitely safer than RWD only.

Another thing that is better with AWD in the snow is engine braking. When you let off the throttle all four wheels are slowing down vs just the rear. This is nice when coming down the mountain with OD off or when going around a corner.

With good all terrain tires the stock AWD setup on a 80 series is hard to beat in the snow. I regularly drive up to the mountain to go skiing and have not had issues, even when the pass is closed on the way up due to a big storm and they are only letting people back down. I'm talking 20+ miles of snow 10-15" deep with ruts and drifts, basically a mess. If it gets really deep I can click on the CDL (while in motion) and be in true 4x4 mode. From a safety standpoint its nice to know you can always get home even in big storms.

The only caveat is that the 80 is not a great match for someone who has only ever driven new vehicles that have stability control, etc that take over when you slide. If the back is empty its easy to make it slide on purpose (even with AWD) but you have to bring it back in line on your own.

All of this snow talk is getting me excited for winter!

 

[pawnthatdude]

On a truck with no ABS, 4WD helps with braking too. It will prevent one axle from locking up without the other. Sort of like a very basic ABS system.

 

[ozarkmud]

In my experience AWD is better for cornering in the snow because if you do start to lose grip applying a little bit of power will pull you through the corner. When I first bought my cruiser it had all season highway tires and I ended up sideways unexpectedly in some packed snow. I was able to apply throttle while steering into the slide and the front tires pulled me through. Definitely safer than RWD only.

Another thing that is better with AWD in the snow is engine braking. When you let off the throttle all four wheels are slowing down vs just the rear. This is nice when coming down the mountain with OD off or when going around a corner.

With good all terrain tires the stock AWD setup on a 80 series is hard to beat in the snow. I regularly drive up to the mountain to go skiing and have not had issues, even when the pass is closed on the way up due to a big storm and they are only letting people back down. I'm talking 20+ miles of snow 10-15" deep with ruts and drifts, basically a mess. If it gets really deep I can click on the CDL (while in motion) and be in true 4x4 mode. From a safety standpoint its nice to know you can always get home even in big storms.

The only caveat is that the 80 is not a great match for someone who has only ever driven new vehicles that have stability control, etc that take over when you slide. If the back is empty its easy to make it slide on purpose (even with AWD) but you have to bring it back in line on your own.

All of this snow talk is getting me excited for winter!

You have some really interesting points! I haven't been able to test this out a whole lot.

Some of my thinking comes from these videos.





In the first video, the car with FWD seems be more predictable than the AWD car, both with all seasons. Of course RWD vs AWD would be more insightful in this case.

Engine braking does make sense, although it's not too tremendous with an automatic. Engine braking definitely is safer than tapping the brakes.

Never driven much with stability control. I don't know if I'd like that.

 

[Mark W]

AWD provides equal engine power (and engine braking) to all four corners, while still allowing them to turn at the appropriate speed/travel the appropriate distance for each individual tire as you negotiate turns and curves. Simply driving down an icy road, much less during emergency maneuvers, this is a significant advantage over RWD, FWD and part time 4x4.

Part time 4x4 with a solidly locked T/C WILL make at least one tire, skid/scrub/slide anytime you are going less than perfectly straight. Often two. On icy roads, this is bad. FWD will not do this, BUT all of the traction required to push you down the road has to pass through the two front tires... along with the bulk of the traction needed to maintain directional control.

When you are operating at the limits of available traction, these differences are a significant consideration in maintaining control. A tire that is skidding, scrubbing/sliding/spinning is not hanging onto the road surface and is not helping to take you where you want to be going.

At low speeds, it is not as big a deal.

At higher speeds it is. It matters. A lot.

FWD and 4x4 have different strengths and weaknesses on icy roads. Neither is horrible. Neither is ideal. And neither is as good as AWD.

Not even gonna get into to all the shortcomings of RWD on icy roads right now.

I've operated numerous examples of all of these different systems through 40 Alaskan winters. I consider myself a pretty skilled driver with a complete understanding of the physics and mechanics of what is going on when I am operating my vehicles. I have a lot of experience driving in on and off road adverse conditions. A bit of experience driving... less than sedately... under less than ideal conditions too (NOT on public roads, but trails, frozen rivers and lakes, glaciers and such.

In terms of road use, AWD systems have saved me from crashes on more than one occasion. All of the others have put me in sketchy situations (or in the ditch) more than once.

Part time 4x4 is close enough to make no difference for off road use. For icy road use, AWD has no equal.

I will never forget the day almost 20 years ago when I hit a curve that was just a tiny bit slicker than the other 200 miles of ice I had covered up to that point. Long sweeping curve just before starting up Thompson Pass on the way to Valdez.
About 1/4 of the way through the curve at about 55mph, I felt the tail end of the FJ80 I was driving start to come around. I knew enough not to hit the brakes. That is driving 101. I also knew not to come off the gas and let the engine brake either. It was simply too slick for that. If you have not done any ice driving, this might not be a thing you have ever considered... The traction used by the engine trying top slow the rig would have been subtracted from what little I had available for steering the front end and hoping that the tail end would manage to grab (it was SLICK!).
I almost brought the rig under control but, not unexpectedly, my counter steer was just a tiny bit too much or I ended it a tiny bit too late and the rig started to swing the other way. I steered into the new slide with a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. I knew I could stop this one, but my hopes for NOT simply entering a third swing that would take me sideways into the ditch were not have even been called a prayer. It was just to freaking slippery.

Looking back later, I realized that this curve was alongside a break in the trees and must have gotten enough sun every day to create just a little bit more glaze from the pressure of the tires of passing vehicles and moisture from their exhaust that the road just a few 100 feet away in either direction.

In any event, I kept trying as I told my passenger to hang on tight... and as the third amplifying slide started, I felt the tail end just barely grab traction.. I felt the rig begin to straighten... and impossibly, I had control again and just like that it was over and we were once again making a mundane and uneventful run down the highway.

A bit more after the fact pondering and I realized just why I had not gone into the ditch. By modulating the throttle carefully so that the rig was basically in "coast mode" with the engine neither sending power to the tires NOR trying to slow the tires, ALL of the available traction was devoted to lateral grip... directional control... getting the rear tires to grab and stop sliding.

But that alone would not have been enough if I had not been driving an AWD drive rig with the T/C unlocked. If each tire had not been able to travel at it's own speed/ move its own distance during the slide, allowing the tires speed and travel distance to match the pavement/ice it was passing over... if the TC had been locked, locking the total cumulative speed/distance of the two axles to each other... I would have had one or even two tires forced to break traction and slide and there would have been no way for them not to continue doing so until I was traveling perfectly straight. and that simply was not happening and was not going to.

Without the capability of the vehicle to allow the tires to give me every last bit of traction that they had to give for lateral grip, no amount of driving skill or experience could have saved that slide.

I'll say it again. For icy road use, AWD has no equal.



Just make sure you remember to lock the T/C in your AWD and make it true 4x4 for those much fewer situations where that truly is what you need. And there ARE times where it is.

Scenario #2.
Picture towing a car trailer up a steep icy hill in an unlocked AWD mid '80s Suburban and blowing out traction on ONE front tire. Picture coming to a stop as the speedo is showing about 30MPH... and realizing that the one spinning tire is turning at over 120MPH! Picture sliding backwards at the same time and feeling the trailer sliding into the ditch and starting to jack knife... And then picture (I still don't know how I managed to pull this off), the trailer jamming in the ditch and counter steering as the rig pivots around the trailer hitch as rearward speed builds... swinging the front end around in an arc as the slide gets FAST and finding the nose still on the road and pointing down hill as the trailer acted like an anchor...applying more throttle and somehow pulling the trailer out of the ditch and heading down the hill to pull over, lock the T/C and spend a couple of minutes letting the heart rate drop back down to almost normal levels before climbing out to check for damage.

A few minutes later, with no damage found and the T/C locked the second trip up the hill was as dull and uneventful as a Sunday afternoon church social. But even after over 30 years, I still remember those few moments like it was yesterday.


Mark...

 

[ozarkmud]

I appreciate the stories and info! You definitely have a lot more experience than I do.

FWD and 4x4 have different strengths and weaknesses on icy roads. Neither is horrible. Neither is ideal. And neither is as good as AWD.

Not even gonna get into to all the shortcomings of RWD on icy roads right now.

Part time 4x4 is close enough to make no difference for off road use. For icy road use, AWD has no equal.

It sounds like you prefer running locked 4WD to RWD in the snow/ice. Is that right? Just wanting to be sure I understand correctly.

I will never forget the day almost 20 years ago when I hit a curve that was just a tiny bit slicker than the other 200 miles of ice I had covered up to that point. Long sweeping curve just before starting up Thompson Pass on the way to Valdez.
About 1/4 of the way through the curve at about 55mph, I felt the tail end of the FJ80 I was driving start to come around. I knew enough not to hit the brakes. That is driving 101. I also knew not to come off the gas and let the engine brake either. It was simply too slick for that. If you have not done any ice driving, this might not be a thing you have ever considered... The traction used by the engine trying top slow the rig would have been subtracted from what little I had available for steering the front end and hoping that the tail end would manage to grab (it was SLICK!).
I almost brought the rig under control but, not unexpectedly, my counter steer was just a tiny bit too much or I ended it a tiny bit too late and the rig started to swing the other way. I steered into the new slide with a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. I knew I could stop this one, but my hopes for NOT simply entering a third swing that would take me sideways into the ditch were not have even been called a prayer. It was just to freaking slippery.

Looking back later, I realized that this curve was alongside a break in the trees and must have gotten enough sun every day to create just a little bit more glaze from the pressure of the tires of passing vehicles and moisture from their exhaust that the road just a few 100 feet away in either direction.

In any event, I kept trying as I told my passenger to hang on tight... and as the third amplifying slide started, I felt the tail end just barely grab traction.. I felt the rig begin to straighten... and impossibly, I had control again and just like that it was over and we were once again making a mundane and uneventful run down the highway.

A bit more after the fact pondering and I realized just why I had not gone into the ditch. By modulating the throttle carefully so that the rig was basically in "coast mode" with the engine neither sending power to the tires NOR trying to slow the tires, ALL of the available traction was devoted to lateral grip... directional control... getting the rear tires to grab and stop sliding.

But that alone would not have been enough if I had not been driving an AWD drive rig with the T/C unlocked. If each tire had not been able to travel at it's own speed/ move its own distance during the slide, allowing the tires speed and travel distance to match the pavement/ice it was passing over... if the TC had been locked, locking the total cumulative speed/distance of the two axles to each other... I would have had one or even two tires forced to break traction and slide and there would have been no way for them not to continue doing so until I was traveling perfectly straight. and that simply was not happening and was not going to.

Without the capability of the vehicle to allow the tires to give me every last bit of traction that they had to give for lateral grip, no amount of driving skill or experience could have saved that slide.

That was crazy! I can see how locked 4WD would've been a lot worse in this situation. However, would FWD or RWD been just as good in this particular case? It sounded like you had to coast with neutral throttle, which should've been just as possible with RWD or FWD.

Not arguing for RWD or FWD over AWD in this case, just thinking that all three would've done about equally as well.

I'll say it again. For icy road use, AWD has no equal.

I don't doubt that you can go faster with AWD. AWD really helps you put the power down. And AWD is a lot smoother than 4WD, for sure. And if you need to get places in a timely manner you can probably do it with AWD, while also increasing risk.

Just make sure you remember to lock the T/C in your AWD and make it true 4x4 for those much fewer situations where that truly is what you need. And there ARE times where it is.

Scenario #2.
Picture towing a car trailer up a steep icy hill in an unlocked AWD mid '80s Suburban and blowing out traction on ONE front tire. Picture coming to a stop as the speedo is showing about 30MPH... and realizing that the one spinning tire is turning at over 120MPH! Picture sliding backwards at the same time and feeling the trailer sliding into the ditch and starting to jack knife... And then picture (I still don't know how I managed to pull this off), the trailer jamming in the ditch and counter steering as the rig pivots around the trailer hitch as rearward speed builds... swinging the front end around in an arc as the slide gets FAST and finding the nose still on the road and pointing down hill as the trailer acted like an anchor...applying more throttle and somehow pulling the trailer out of the ditch and heading down the hill to pull over, lock the T/C and spend a couple of minutes letting the heart rate drop back down to almost normal levels before climbing out to check for damage.

A few minutes later, with no damage found and the T/C locked the second trip up the hill was as dull and uneventful as a Sunday afternoon church social. But even after over 30 years, I still remember those few moments like it was yesterday.

That makes a lot of sense. Definitely not a good situation to be in.

I had a first gen Tacoma with aggressive A/T tires that I drove across I-80 in Wyoming... in February. If you know the road, you know where this is going.

I hit black ice and spun around going about 80. I and the rig were 100% fine, but wow, was that scary. I had it in RWD. I put it in 4WD after that, although I'm not sure if it would've been of a whole lot of benefit. I wonder if some weight in the back would've been the most helpful thing, other than winter tires.

The winds howl down there (often 60MPH headwind gusts), the snow blows onto the road, it melts, and refreezes. Absolutely wretched stretch of road in the winter. I think I passed 6 trailers blown off the road on that drive. Some semi, some not.

 

[Devils Paw 80]

...I had a first gen Tacoma with aggressive A/T tires that I drove across I-80 in Wyoming... in February. If you know the road, you know where this is going.

I hit black ice and spun around going about 80. I and the rig were 100% fine, but wow, was that scary. I had it in RWD. I put it in 4WD after that, although I'm not sure if it would've been of a whole lot of benefit. I wonder if some weight in the back would've been the most helpful thing, other than winter tires.

The winds howl down there (often 60MPH headwind gusts), the snow blows onto the road, it melts, and refreezes. Absolutely wretched stretch of road in the winter. I think I passed 6 trailers blown off the road on that drive. Some semi, some not.

You're lucky, and also wacko to be going 80 in those conditions. I'm skeptical any drive system can prevent a slide on a really bad stretch of black ice.
Every winter there are cars going off the road here. The cops claim that the vast majority of them are caused by motorists going too fast for conditions.

 

[ChaseTruck]

My RWD experience is brief (grew up w/ plenty of winter driving in southern Germany, but all in FWD cars):
Omaha, Nebraska, winter, a dusting of snow in the slightly upwards-sloping driveway, perhaps a little ice underneath.
Vehicle: 1985 K5, classic part-time 4WD (i.e. RWD, no diff in t-case, front axle w/ locking hubs), good A/T tires.
RWD, backing out of the garage, I managed to get ~2 feet. Encountered the slope, and both rear tires spun. Game over. Drove the AWD van.

The K5 has since encountered snow, but that was on trails in 4WD and slow speed. Most memorable snow on the road was in Monument Valley, whiteout in early May, but that was 4" of soft slush (i.e. no ice), no issues at ~40mph. I like the AWD in the GX470 when we're on ski trips in snow country. Adjusting speed to road conditions is key, even if that means slow going for a while.

 

[Mark W]

I appreciate the stories and info! You definitely have a lot more experience than I do.



It sounds like you prefer running locked 4WD to RWD in the snow/ice. Is that right? Just wanting to be sure I understand correctly.



That was crazy! I can see how locked 4WD would've been a lot worse in this situation. However, would FWD or RWD been just as good in this particular case? It sounded like you had to coast with neutral throttle, which should've been just as possible with RWD or FWD.

Not arguing for RWD or FWD over AWD in this case, just thinking that all three would've done about equally as well.



I don't doubt that you can go faster with AWD. AWD really helps you put the power down. And AWD is a lot smoother than 4WD, for sure. And if you need to get places in a timely manner you can probably do it with AWD, while also increasing risk.



That makes a lot of sense. Definitely not a good situation to be in.

RWD seldom (never?) beats any of the other options when operating on low traction road surfaces. AWD (with a open center diff) is better than 4WD (no center diff) in just about every on road scenario except when loosing traction on one wheel and therefore depowering the other three is a risk and one that will create an adverse situation. An icy hill climb is pretty much the only scenario that comes to mind right away... or towing someone up a muddy hill (see below. )

In the incident I mentioned where traction was lost at high speed in a curve and throttle modulation was required; yes, once the slide had started and until traction was finally regained, since it was incumbent to not apply power or braking force to the tires, the type of power system was not the primary factor in regaining control. However up until the instant that traction was lost, and beginning immediately after traction being recovered, AWD has the ability to apply power most evenly to all 4 tires and therefore, all else being equal, it will maintain traction better and regain it better and keep/restore control better than FWD and far far....far far far better then RWD. 4WD would have been at a a worst disadvantage in this case regardless of power modulation as the very mechanics of the systems would have forced traction loss at one corner at least and prevented regaining it until the vehicle was traveling in a perfectly straight line.

It is not just snow and ice either. I made a trip out to Manley Hot springs recently. Middle of summer. As it happened it rained damn hard the day before I headed back and all of that day on the road back to Anchorage. I know that most lower 48ers don't think of muddy conditions as highway conditions, but it does happen. The last 85 miles of the Elliott Highway to Manley is a dirt road. A maintained dirt road, not old two track or anything. There is enough mine truck traffic over it that is gets maintained pretty well. That means that it is graded routinely (but seldom compacted) and in the case of this road it gets a heavy dose of Calcium Chloride.
Add a good drenching of rain to that and we had 85 miles of greasy slippery slime to negotiate. I lost track of how many hills I climbed applying small counter steers constantly as the rig wandered back and forth all the way up, how many ruts tried to decide where I was going and how many curves I could feel myself drifting in. As it happened I was driving a 4Runner with the option to select RWD, 4WD or AWD so I got to play around and see just how they all compared. In this case, as slimy and sloppy as the road surface was, 4WD was right at home chewing along at a safe and controllable 45-50 mph. The AWD option was only marginally more sure footed. RWD could not make it up some of the steeper sloppier hills unless I just insisted on trying to prove that it could and approaching them like some of of "prove I am a man" off road obstacle. The GF nixed that approach quickly. If I had the option of FWD, I am certain that it flat out would not have made it up most of the hills.

In fact I wound up pulling some nondescript fwd econobox up one of the hills Just a few miles out of Manley. Now, I *did* lock it into 4WD for that. I was after all driving a 4Runner on street tires.

The qualities of AWD over the other drive systems is not about going faster or increasing risk.For myself, it is about having more traction and control on low traction surfaces at any speed and improving performance/safety and reducing risk. If you have to operate on less than ideal road surfaces AWD is superior at keeping your tires connected to that road. What you do with that more efficiently retained traction is up to you.

Mark...

 

[Idaho Savage]

I live next door and have the same roads, same endless winters where you don’t see pavement for 4 months.

Tires tires tires tires and tires.

I run Toyo AT3 year around and have a set of mounted MTs I swap for mud season or backcountry winter desert (clay soup) trips.

But yeah, tires.

 

[calokie]

Not to highjack the main topic, but sounds like we have some seasoned snow drivers participating on this thread.

How would a part time kit and Spartan locker perform in the snow?
I actually live in central costal CA with no immediate plans to drive in the snow, would like to keep Tahoe option available. I plan to mostly do desert adventures.

I recently went part time, did the high low gears and opted for the part time.
Note: Im running stock fulltime drive flanges up front and plan to keep it that way for 3 reasons;
1-Don't have to get out to lock hubs,
2-Smog checks, AWD vehicles don't get put on the dynameter,
3-ill take manual locking hubs as trail spares for emergency front diff failures (I believe flanges are stronger than manual locking hubs)

 

[Ragnaroek]

Where I live we rarely get really deep snow, but 2-3" of wet snow are pretty common, sometimes for weeks in the beginning and end of winter. It snows over night, thaws over the day, snows again the next night. Lots of hills here too, hard to find an even strech of road.
RWD with an unloaded rear can get you stuck in your own driveway or a parking lot over night. If you add some weight, it'll work somehow, but AWD/4WD is still my only choice for a winter vehicle.

 

[80t0ylc]

Not to highjack the main topic, but sounds like we have some seasoned snow drivers participating on this thread.

How would a part time kit and Spartan locker perform in the snow?
I actually live in central costal CA with no immediate plans to drive in the snow, would like to keep Tahoe option available. I plan to mostly do desert adventures.

I recently went part time, did the high low gears and opted for the part time.
Note: Im running stock fulltime drive flanges up front and plan to keep it that way for 3 reasons;
1-Don't have to get out to lock hubs,
2-Smog checks, AWD vehicles don't get put on the dynameter,
3-ill take manual locking hubs as trail spares for emergency front diff failures (I believe flanges are stronger than manual locking hubs)

Compared to a stock 80 Series set up? Not as good. Auto lockers can be problematic for rookie snow drivers. They may get you going from a dead stop, but once you get up to speed on snowpacked roads, they can be treacherous on curves. For best all around performance in snow, you want either E lockers or air lockers. You want to be able to control the locking and unlocking. At 50 mph on a snowpacked road curve, if the auto locker kicks in, it could throw you in the ditch. Once you are up to speed and can maintain it on a slippery surface, you do not need any locker. As a matter of fact, lockers can be detrimental because a locked axle on a curve means one tire is sliding or being dragged. This can lead to a loss of control. You want each wheel to turn freely to maintain traction and control.

 

[SpenserAK]

Lifetime snow driver here, all winter every winter. Yep, using lockers sounds sketchy for general snow driving. Maybe they're fine if you're snow wheeling, or going slow in really bad conditions in a straight line only...?

Best vehicles I've ever had here have been Subarus with winter tires. As far as 4WD trucks go, best I've had is my FT4WD 80 with good tires. I never "needed" to lock the center, but occasionally in unplowed sloppy conditions climbing the mountain road to snowboard, following another vehicle's line, I often found that locking the center could give the feeling of tracking slightly better when the deep ruts could tug you around. However, it was a negligible difference in the end.

 

[calokie]

Yep that's what I though, just needed the re assurance. I quite often come across a post on FB saying that spartin lockers "work for" or great winter driving.
Subaru's definitely are the best in snow and their is a company offering dif lockers for subarus now.

 

[Mark W]

Not to highjack the main topic, but sounds like we have some seasoned snow drivers participating on this thread.

How would a part time kit and Spartan locker perform in the snow?
I actually live in central costal CA with no immediate plans to drive in the snow, would like to keep Tahoe option available. I plan to mostly do desert adventures.

I recently went part time, did the high low gears and opted for the part time.
Note: Im running stock fulltime drive flanges up front and plan to keep it that way for 3 reasons;
1-Don't have to get out to lock hubs,
2-Smog checks, AWD vehicles don't get put on the dynameter,
3-ill take manual locking hubs as trail spares for emergency front diff failures (I believe flanges are stronger than manual locking hubs)

I am a fan of auto-lockers in part time 4WD rigs. I drove an auto-locker equipped '55 and a couple of different '40s through quite a few winters. I never felt insecure in them. Of course that was before I had spent time driving AWD rigs in the winter. And if I look back with an honest appraisal, there is no argument that they were not less stable on icy roads than if they had not had the auto lockers. I had a good understanding of what was going on in the diffs and of how that affected the behavior of the vehicle. With this knowledge I was able to operate the rig to the best of it's potential. And it *was* kinda nice to be able to give it a little kick in the ass and basically spin around in place when making a u-turn on a backroad. It was not as nice knowing that it could happily give me that same reaction when I did not really want it to. The quirks of driving manners that an auto-locker brings can easily be learned and accounted for in your driving style. But there is no getting around the fact that they are a net loss so far as low traction on road performance is concerned.


When you add in the AWD aspect of the '80, I have always considered an auto locker in the rear to be a detriment to it's handling and drivablity in high or low traction road use. And, as you probably know, never never never consider an auto-locker in the front axle of a rig that will see 4WD (or of course AWD) engaged for road use.

Mark...