Builds dougbert's future 350 swap: How much torque is too much? (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter norsk
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norsk
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- #382
Yeah Elbert, I added the pics of the bell housing later after first posting that, so you would not have seen them at first.
The attachment is the installation PDF for the clutch slave bracket from AA. It has some pictures on placement of the bracket. It also includes the "wedge" that holds the push rod into the fork. That wedge is something I found in reading their Tech Vault documents.
(John, I have replaced my slave sometime ago so it is much better than a lump of rust)
Admission: I thought I had studied AA's documents fairly well and figured out everything but I didn't get it 100%. I haven't found a doc on the clutch system FOR when using the Ranger. I find the docs to be a list of IF-THEN-ELSE control flows. From several docs I came up with the following set of parts, most of which I have. I conclude that I only messed up by ordering the wrong Pressure plate and the wrong TO Bearing (I got the plain bearing without the bearing collar and it looks like they only sell the collar WITH the bearing attached), and missed the need for the wedge.
I am in process of deciphering their various docs for the Ranger to GM bell housing, especially their clutch configurations and will call them to have them help me confirm a proper fit.
The following are the components to build my clutch system for the SBC and the Ranger
Parts:
HAVE: V8 SBC Gen I, 1973 block
HAVE: Bell housing 640486
HAVE: OEM Clutch slave
HAVE: Clutch release arm Boot
HAVE: Ranger OD - AA PN 760024M-27
HAVE: Clutch Disc - AA PN383735 Centerforce
HAVE: Fork/Release Arm - AA PN716176 (GM #3765372)
HAVE: Slave bracket - AA PN716287
HAVE: TO Bearing Assembly - AA PN716316 (Large Toyota Release bearing [716314] AND TO Bearing Collar [716175]). Got the collar and pressed it into the TO Bearing
HAVE: Pressure Plate - AA PN CF165473S - short throw, works with TO bearing
HAVE: Wedge - AA PN716139 (GM #3765322)
Threaded push rod and nuts for better adjustment
I am doing this so that I have flushed out plan of action and for future readers of this thread.
Will post when done.
argh! The fun and love of conversions. What I hate are the mis-steps. I know there will be some, but try to minimize the number and severity of what I encounter.
dougbert
BTW: Here are the pics of my actual bell housing - I like the coating on it:
The attachment is the installation PDF for the clutch slave bracket from AA. It has some pictures on placement of the bracket. It also includes the "wedge" that holds the push rod into the fork. That wedge is something I found in reading their Tech Vault documents.
(John, I have replaced my slave sometime ago so it is much better than a lump of rust)
Admission: I thought I had studied AA's documents fairly well and figured out everything but I didn't get it 100%. I haven't found a doc on the clutch system FOR when using the Ranger. I find the docs to be a list of IF-THEN-ELSE control flows. From several docs I came up with the following set of parts, most of which I have. I conclude that I only messed up by ordering the wrong Pressure plate and the wrong TO Bearing (I got the plain bearing without the bearing collar and it looks like they only sell the collar WITH the bearing attached), and missed the need for the wedge.
I am in process of deciphering their various docs for the Ranger to GM bell housing, especially their clutch configurations and will call them to have them help me confirm a proper fit.
The following are the components to build my clutch system for the SBC and the Ranger
Parts:
HAVE: V8 SBC Gen I, 1973 block
HAVE: Bell housing 640486
HAVE: OEM Clutch slave
HAVE: Clutch release arm Boot
HAVE: Ranger OD - AA PN 760024M-27
HAVE: Clutch Disc - AA PN383735 Centerforce
HAVE: Fork/Release Arm - AA PN716176 (GM #3765372)
HAVE: Slave bracket - AA PN716287
HAVE: TO Bearing Assembly - AA PN716316 (Large Toyota Release bearing [716314] AND TO Bearing Collar [716175]). Got the collar and pressed it into the TO Bearing
HAVE: Pressure Plate - AA PN CF165473S - short throw, works with TO bearing
HAVE: Wedge - AA PN716139 (GM #3765322)
Threaded push rod and nuts for better adjustment
I am doing this so that I have flushed out plan of action and for future readers of this thread.
Will post when done.
argh! The fun and love of conversions. What I hate are the mis-steps. I know there will be some, but try to minimize the number and severity of what I encounter.
dougbert
BTW: Here are the pics of my actual bell housing - I like the coating on it:
Last edited:
norsk
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #383
just got a call from AA support, he has my Ranger rear plate and will have the machinist turn it for a bigger shoulder of the bearing.
(Someone did some digging in their neighborhood and cut their phone and internet lines yesterday, just now coming back online)
Also will work on my clutch design as per above. Some good support they have. He (Rusty) is recently new, but doing them good.
Update: Second call today.
They have a rear plate in the bigger size and they will ship that out.
Another issue I had was I had bought the TO bearing 716314 but did NOT know I needed the collar. They have a two-piece part 716316 that has both
They are selling me the collar for some $23 and I will just need to press the two together.
One down side is that I had to pay shipping ($25) to ship the rear plate and pay shipping for the new rear plate and the collar ($28).
One reason for this is that I didn't buy directly from AA, but from summitracing (SR). He indicates I should have contacted SR for support, but understood that communicating the issues to them, shipping to them, and from SR to AA and the reversal all would add delays. So they were willing to do the support work, but needed me to cover the shipping from AA back to me. I understand that.
Root causality: Failure of documentation of steps to ensure proper fitment of the product. 1st error really by AA. That document failure alone started this whole issue. (Docs say 1987 models and later - doh! - instead of indicating 1986, or even better: Require all to measure the bearing for correct size).
But as others have posted elsewhere, AA support is really, really good - they exceeded my expectations and were fair.
dougbert
(Someone did some digging in their neighborhood and cut their phone and internet lines yesterday, just now coming back online)
Also will work on my clutch design as per above. Some good support they have. He (Rusty) is recently new, but doing them good.
Update: Second call today.
They have a rear plate in the bigger size and they will ship that out.
Another issue I had was I had bought the TO bearing 716314 but did NOT know I needed the collar. They have a two-piece part 716316 that has both
They are selling me the collar for some $23 and I will just need to press the two together.
One down side is that I had to pay shipping ($25) to ship the rear plate and pay shipping for the new rear plate and the collar ($28).
One reason for this is that I didn't buy directly from AA, but from summitracing (SR). He indicates I should have contacted SR for support, but understood that communicating the issues to them, shipping to them, and from SR to AA and the reversal all would add delays. So they were willing to do the support work, but needed me to cover the shipping from AA back to me. I understand that.
Root causality: Failure of documentation of steps to ensure proper fitment of the product. 1st error really by AA. That document failure alone started this whole issue. (Docs say 1987 models and later - doh! - instead of indicating 1986, or even better: Require all to measure the bearing for correct size).
But as others have posted elsewhere, AA support is really, really good - they exceeded my expectations and were fair.
dougbert
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Same story as mine-bought from outside AA and ad the same bad luck.
Proper product description at the two interface points, (transmission and bell housing), and unique part numbers for the various combinations would have avoided this.
Proper product description at the two interface points, (transmission and bell housing), and unique part numbers for the various combinations would have avoided this.
norsk
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- Thread starter
- #385
SUCCESS!
got the rear plate last night from AA
Went out this morning, tightened it up to the main Ranger, hauled the whole thing out to the vehicle, lubed the seal, RTV'd a gasket on the face
and then bolted it up, and tightened. Slipped right on!
Pics below from that point to installation of the bell housing, TO bearing and fork:
fork with TO Bearing and the collar
ALL ASSEMBLED
got the rear plate last night from AA
Went out this morning, tightened it up to the main Ranger, hauled the whole thing out to the vehicle, lubed the seal, RTV'd a gasket on the face
and then bolted it up, and tightened. Slipped right on!
Pics below from that point to installation of the bell housing, TO bearing and fork:
fork with TO Bearing and the collar
ALL ASSEMBLED
norsk
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- Thread starter
- #386
Side views
Also completed the left front axle/knuckle rebuild. Needed to grind down a couple of places on the caliper to allow my black steel wheels to fit, with a 1/4" extension plate.
My winter (studded tires) wheels have PLENTY of space w/o the extension plate. These are what were on the rig when I parked it in December of 2012.
Need to find some 16x8, 6x5.5 and BS of 3.25 wheels or less for the 35" tires. Maybe 17"x9"
Anyway moved to dismantle the right front axle now and make it "new" as well.
Also painted inside the cowl under the windshield with Eastwood Internal Frame paint.
Hard to get in there - the nozzle tube helped a lot. Used 2 cans of the stuff.
Was also able to spray into the roof line since the headliner is out.
This way I will be able to cover the rust that is up there and delay the rusting.
Will be spraying Rust Zero as well into both areas
dougbert
Also completed the left front axle/knuckle rebuild. Needed to grind down a couple of places on the caliper to allow my black steel wheels to fit, with a 1/4" extension plate.
My winter (studded tires) wheels have PLENTY of space w/o the extension plate. These are what were on the rig when I parked it in December of 2012.
Need to find some 16x8, 6x5.5 and BS of 3.25 wheels or less for the 35" tires. Maybe 17"x9"
Anyway moved to dismantle the right front axle now and make it "new" as well.
Also painted inside the cowl under the windshield with Eastwood Internal Frame paint.
Hard to get in there - the nozzle tube helped a lot. Used 2 cans of the stuff.
Was also able to spray into the roof line since the headliner is out.
This way I will be able to cover the rust that is up there and delay the rusting.
Will be spraying Rust Zero as well into both areas
dougbert
Last edited:
norsk
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- Thread starter
- #387
Painted inside of cowl with Zero Rust.
Bought a brown carpet from Jake to install into the 60 at some point. Took it to the car wash and washed the dirt, stains, etc out of it.
Rinsed it all out and it dried nicely on the fence today.
Also worked the knuckle rebuild but on the right side today.
Same work as the left front, so no need for new pics which are duplicates. But did have a helper taking it apart, so am giving him some credit.
just a pic of Ted helping out
Bought a brown carpet from Jake to install into the 60 at some point. Took it to the car wash and washed the dirt, stains, etc out of it.
Rinsed it all out and it dried nicely on the fence today.
Also worked the knuckle rebuild but on the right side today.
Same work as the left front, so no need for new pics which are duplicates. But did have a helper taking it apart, so am giving him some credit.
just a pic of Ted helping out
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norsk
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- #388
Hey all, a RFC - Request for Comments
With the engine install coming up shortly, I am now planning the exhaust system. My block huggers are 1.5 inch primaries, into a 2.00 inch collector.
I can continue the 2.00 inch pipe from both sides of the engine into a 2.00 to 2.50 inch collection and then continue the 2.50 inch into the Catalytic Converter and then on through a 2.50 inch Flowmaster 50 series muffler and out the single tail pipe.
OR
put 2.5 inch pipe on the 2.0 inch header collector, then onto a 2.5 inch to 3.00 dual collector, and do 3.00 inch all the way out to the Cat and muffler.
I have to admit I don't know the more serious pros and cons between the two sizes, other then that the 3 inch is a bit more difficult to work with.
Thoughts?
thanks
dougbert
With the engine install coming up shortly, I am now planning the exhaust system. My block huggers are 1.5 inch primaries, into a 2.00 inch collector.
I can continue the 2.00 inch pipe from both sides of the engine into a 2.00 to 2.50 inch collection and then continue the 2.50 inch into the Catalytic Converter and then on through a 2.50 inch Flowmaster 50 series muffler and out the single tail pipe.
OR
put 2.5 inch pipe on the 2.0 inch header collector, then onto a 2.5 inch to 3.00 dual collector, and do 3.00 inch all the way out to the Cat and muffler.
I have to admit I don't know the more serious pros and cons between the two sizes, other then that the 3 inch is a bit more difficult to work with.
Thoughts?
thanks
dougbert
2 1/2 for the single is plenty. you need to keep up your exhaust gas velocity at low rpms, too large diameter the flow will stall as it dips out of turbulent into laminar flow.
Is there a way to measure/model this kind of stuff or a relation that explains the principle(s) behind the affect that changing the diameter of exhaust pipes has?
you could calculate the Reynolds number of the flow, assuming the density of the exhaust gas, and figure out the cfm coming out at various RPM's. Velocity could be found out of the volumetric flow rate and the diameter of the pipe.
norsk
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- #392
After doing some searching found the following
http://www.exhaustvideos.com/faq/how-to-calculate-muffler-size-pipe-diameter/
How To Calculate Muffler Size and Exhaust Pipe Diameter
If you’re a math wiz and/or an engineer, you’re probably going to like this article and the resources we’ve linked to. However, if you find yourself getting stuck (or bored) with the info below, here are the key take-aways:
1. The factory exhaust pipe diameter is usually a good choice for most vehicles.
2. The muffler manufacturers are doing all the math for us – no need to reinvent the wheel. If they say it will work for your vehicle, it will probably work for your vehicle.
3. We’ve got an easy-to-read exhaust system size table that is good for quick calculations.
Breaking Down The Problem
While we’re not going to go through and list out all the formulas and calculations you need to figure this exactly, we will break down the problem, explain how you would go about figuring things out scientifically, and then leave you with some good quick-and-dirty exhaust system math as well as some interesting links.
The science goes like this…
1) Mass of air that the engine breathes in + mass of fuel = mass of exhaust gases
Conservation of mass, right?
2) To calculate the volume of air the engine takes in, we multiply the displacement of the engine by the engine RPM and then divide by two (it takes two full revolutions for the engine to exhaust it’s entire air volume). We then convert that to volume to mass.
3) To make the calculations easy, you want to assume that combustion is perfect, i.e. there aren’t any byproducts, any unburned fuel, etc. It’s easier to assume perfect combustion and then “back in” to the actual numbers using an estimate after the fact.
4) Since you’re assuming perfect combustion, it’s easy to figure out how much fuel mass is added to the exhaust.
5) Once you know the mass of the exhaust gas, you just figure out how much volume that mass would occupy. Of course, you have to adjust for expansion due to the high exhaust gas temperature.
That’s it! Of course, when you sit down to figure it, you’ll find that getting a good scientific estimate takes a lot of work (which is why we don’t bother with it here).
Quick and Dirty Exhaust System Math
Easy Way To Estimate: Your intake system needs to flow 1.5 CFM per engine horsepower, and your exhaust system needs to flow 2.2 CFM per engine horsepower.
Good Way To Estimate: Take engine RPM x engine displacement, then divide by two. This is the intake volume. Use this same volume of air for the exhaust system, but then correct for thermal expansion (you need to know exhaust temps to figure things out).
Exhaust Pipe Size Estimate: A good section of straight pipe will flow about 115 CFM per square inch of area. Here’s a quick table that shows how many CFM each common pipe size will flow, as well as the estimated max horsepower for each pipe size:
Pipe Diameter (inches) Pipe Area (in2) Total CFM (est.) Max HP Per Pipe Max HP For A Dual Pipe System
1 1/2 1.48 171 78 155
1 5/8 1.77 203 92 185
1 3/4 2.07 239 108 217
2 2.76 318 144 289
2 1/4 3.55 408 185 371
2 1/2 4.43 509 232 463
2 3/4 5.41 622 283 566
3 6.49 747 339 679
3 1/4 7.67 882 401 802
3 1/2 8.95 1029 468 935
NOTE: These numbers are just estimates. All pipes are assumed to be 16 gauge steel.
The table above is probably over-estimating pipe size, but you can see that a 400 hp vehicle with a dual exhaust system only needs 2 1/4 – 2 1/2 inch pipes. Anything larger is overkill.
Useful Links
Great forum discussion that really discusses the details of the scientific calculations: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=104735
An interesting discussion of header pipe designs: http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/header-tech-c.htm
A good general article about designing the perfect exhaust system: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0505em_exh/index.html
http://www.exhaustvideos.com/faq/how-to-calculate-muffler-size-pipe-diameter/
How To Calculate Muffler Size and Exhaust Pipe Diameter
If you’re a math wiz and/or an engineer, you’re probably going to like this article and the resources we’ve linked to. However, if you find yourself getting stuck (or bored) with the info below, here are the key take-aways:
1. The factory exhaust pipe diameter is usually a good choice for most vehicles.
2. The muffler manufacturers are doing all the math for us – no need to reinvent the wheel. If they say it will work for your vehicle, it will probably work for your vehicle.
3. We’ve got an easy-to-read exhaust system size table that is good for quick calculations.
Breaking Down The Problem
While we’re not going to go through and list out all the formulas and calculations you need to figure this exactly, we will break down the problem, explain how you would go about figuring things out scientifically, and then leave you with some good quick-and-dirty exhaust system math as well as some interesting links.
The science goes like this…
1) Mass of air that the engine breathes in + mass of fuel = mass of exhaust gases
Conservation of mass, right?
2) To calculate the volume of air the engine takes in, we multiply the displacement of the engine by the engine RPM and then divide by two (it takes two full revolutions for the engine to exhaust it’s entire air volume). We then convert that to volume to mass.
3) To make the calculations easy, you want to assume that combustion is perfect, i.e. there aren’t any byproducts, any unburned fuel, etc. It’s easier to assume perfect combustion and then “back in” to the actual numbers using an estimate after the fact.
4) Since you’re assuming perfect combustion, it’s easy to figure out how much fuel mass is added to the exhaust.
5) Once you know the mass of the exhaust gas, you just figure out how much volume that mass would occupy. Of course, you have to adjust for expansion due to the high exhaust gas temperature.
That’s it! Of course, when you sit down to figure it, you’ll find that getting a good scientific estimate takes a lot of work (which is why we don’t bother with it here).
Quick and Dirty Exhaust System Math
Easy Way To Estimate: Your intake system needs to flow 1.5 CFM per engine horsepower, and your exhaust system needs to flow 2.2 CFM per engine horsepower.
Good Way To Estimate: Take engine RPM x engine displacement, then divide by two. This is the intake volume. Use this same volume of air for the exhaust system, but then correct for thermal expansion (you need to know exhaust temps to figure things out).
Exhaust Pipe Size Estimate: A good section of straight pipe will flow about 115 CFM per square inch of area. Here’s a quick table that shows how many CFM each common pipe size will flow, as well as the estimated max horsepower for each pipe size:
Pipe Diameter (inches) Pipe Area (in2) Total CFM (est.) Max HP Per Pipe Max HP For A Dual Pipe System
1 1/2 1.48 171 78 155
1 5/8 1.77 203 92 185
1 3/4 2.07 239 108 217
2 2.76 318 144 289
2 1/4 3.55 408 185 371
2 1/2 4.43 509 232 463
2 3/4 5.41 622 283 566
3 6.49 747 339 679
3 1/4 7.67 882 401 802
3 1/2 8.95 1029 468 935
NOTE: These numbers are just estimates. All pipes are assumed to be 16 gauge steel.
The table above is probably over-estimating pipe size, but you can see that a 400 hp vehicle with a dual exhaust system only needs 2 1/4 – 2 1/2 inch pipes. Anything larger is overkill.
Useful Links
Great forum discussion that really discusses the details of the scientific calculations: http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=104735
An interesting discussion of header pipe designs: http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/header-tech-c.htm
A good general article about designing the perfect exhaust system: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0505em_exh/index.html
Doug - where does this put your exhaust for a 2 into 1 pipe?
(I totally want to see if my gut is close)
John
(I totally want to see if my gut is close)
John
I changed to a more stock type muffler (stock like for a 99 GM pickup) and I dont have any converters. I run 2.5 rams horn style manifolds, 2.5 pipes to magnaflow y pipe then to 2.5 inlet on muffler, then 2.5 pipes from dual exit muffler out the back. My truck runs better with this setup. Previously I had a 2.5 dual in dual out muffler. My truck is 5.7 vortec with only front 02 sensors and no converters.
norsk
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #395
John,
jake and tom build the 2 pipes from the headers back to the 2 to 1 Y. Rather neat. I will need to find one on the lot with it and take a pic of it.
One side goes forward and around the front of the oil pan and then back to merge with its sister.
I want to put in the converter for my share of the cleaner air. No requirement what so ever to have one on the truck here.
Smells better IMHO. Will be using a HIGH FLOW one.
Elbert, interesting. Where are the two exit pipes on the rear of the rig? Pics?
dougbert
norsk
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- Thread starter
- #397
ok, got some pics of Jakes Iron pig which has a SBC and his exhaust. He was working on the axles today so it was up in the air
It has 2.5 inch pipes from headers to the Y joiner. He bought one 90 degree elbow and the Y joiner (Flowmaster), (2) 2.5 inch inputs to a 3 inch output.
Then 3 inch down to muffler and out the driver's side
Looking from the front to the rear - you can see the 90 degree elbow. All other are cut pipes and welded togeter
Closer shot of the crossover from passenger side to driver's side
Here is the Y joint
darn, shaky hands - I'll get another shot and repost later
but you can see the muffler and it exits behind the tire
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norsk
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #398
Well finished (about time for me) the right front knuckle rebuild, here is shot of the final result
Still need to grind the caliper a bit to fit my 15x7 steel wheel. I need a 1/4 inch spacer even for that wheel
Yet snow tires are on some old chrome wheels and they fit just fine WITHOUT the spacer.
On monday, I will rebuild the right rear brakes, replacing all components therein. Waiting for the drum to show up next week.
Also painted the inside of the cowl with the Rust Bullet Shell Black. Hard to get one's hand in there, but I think I got all the seams and the floor. Water should rush on out now
dougbert
Still need to grind the caliper a bit to fit my 15x7 steel wheel. I need a 1/4 inch spacer even for that wheel
Yet snow tires are on some old chrome wheels and they fit just fine WITHOUT the spacer.
On monday, I will rebuild the right rear brakes, replacing all components therein. Waiting for the drum to show up next week.
Also painted the inside of the cowl with the Rust Bullet Shell Black. Hard to get one's hand in there, but I think I got all the seams and the floor. Water should rush on out now
dougbert
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Doug - that exhaust is great around the oil pan. What are the royalty costs for me if I steal this idea? 
Axle looks great. The rears aren't terrible, they are the drum brakes us old guys have done 100 times on all the 1950's and1960's cars we had.
Have a great weekend!
John
Axle looks great. The rears aren't terrible, they are the drum brakes us old guys have done 100 times on all the 1950's and1960's cars we had.
Have a great weekend!
John
norsk
SILVER Star
- Thread starter
- #400
no royalty that I know of - lol
For completness, I will document the rear drum rebuilt, for my benefit if no one else
worked on getting the rusty and stuck right rear drum off.
Put on PB Blaster
hammered
fab'd a drum puller since the drive has 2 opposite M8x1.25 threaded holes. I used an angle iron, drilled some 12mm or so holes,
found the right length bolt and nut and use that to "push" the angle iron away from the axle
took some doing and about 3 hours of thinking, trying and thinking again.
but it is off
the drum puller:
yeah the center hole was not "centered", but I was tired and pushed on and it broke loose with a twang
the dirty view. I have changed shoes before a few years ago, but now will change all the parts out
For completness, I will document the rear drum rebuilt, for my benefit if no one else
worked on getting the rusty and stuck right rear drum off.
Put on PB Blaster
hammered
fab'd a drum puller since the drive has 2 opposite M8x1.25 threaded holes. I used an angle iron, drilled some 12mm or so holes,
found the right length bolt and nut and use that to "push" the angle iron away from the axle
took some doing and about 3 hours of thinking, trying and thinking again.
but it is off
the drum puller:
yeah the center hole was not "centered", but I was tired and pushed on and it broke loose with a twang
the dirty view. I have changed shoes before a few years ago, but now will change all the parts out
