"Don't use lockers" ?? (1 Viewer)

[rickysa]

Had a great time with the folks at UORTC on their "Big Creek" trails at Uwharrie last weekend on a full-day "coach and drive"...but was surprised when told at the pre-trail meeting to avoid using lockers...tread lightly and all, I guess. Since I am new to all of this, I'm happy to ask stupid questions (smile), is this common knowledge and practice?

 

[Trollhole]

Lockers in a straight line really won't tear up a trail it's only when you turn as it has a tendency to tear up the trail. Only use lockers when you think not having the traction will hurt the trail or you wouldn't be able to make it. Really on most stuff we do a rear is all you might need. Only use the front when the s*** hits the fan. Very hard to steer when using the front locker and it has a tendency to just go straight. Even in corners

 

[rickysa]

Yep, that's what I was thinking....keep the rears on (pretty tough trails), but was told it could lead to slipping on off-camber stuff.

 

[weejub]

Izzy almost convinced me last weekend that I don't even need rear lockers

 

[little_joe]

When I had my 80, I frequently found the rear locker made things much easier - so far less stress on the trail/environment. Locked the front only for the worst stuff, e.g. the ledge on Daniel.

Guess it's just philosophy: If I engage the rear locker and just cruise through trails, how is that worse than needing wheelspin on the same trail? (Hint: it's not)

 

[slceso]

UORTC follows the I4WDTA methodology, perfected since the invention of the wheel by ancient Mesopotamians. No need to lock it unless necessary. With an 80 or Tundra with automatics, you can "lock" the differential with left foot driving. The differential follows the path of least resistance as designed, so a wheel in the air or with poor traction spins while the wheel with all the traction sits there. By applying the brake, you now in effect require torque to be sent to the wheel with the traction. In essence you lock it up but retain certain differential motion, and can control the amount of "lock" by how much brake you use.
If you follow me on the tough trails, you will see my brake lights never go off, even uphill. I get hard on the brake, select an engine rpm (say 1100), and keep it steady throttle. Then remove and apply brake pedal pressure to maintain and control the forward motion. It's magical.
I do use lockers on certain conditions, never while turning. Perhaps something to demo during our next ONSC event? Reach out to you local elected official....

Bill Burke is a Master Trainer for the association, and no one explains it better than him, around 2:30 into video

If I could do all of that, I wouldn't need lockers! But seriously, I lock and unlock just to get over obstacles, not because I think it is cool. My grandpa always said you don't need 4wd, because you will just get stuck in a worse spot. for me it's a value judgement, not for show.

 

[rickysa]

Izzy....Now I know why they stress "two foot" driving (in the 101 course) . Dummy me never put one and one together...during the morning instruction part of the class, we went over the different types of differentials and how they worked, and how using the brake "locks" the diffs just how you've described. Now I also know why Scott (of UORTC) kept patiently reminding me last weekend, "Rick, you gotta use your brake...set your RPMs and let off/hold down the brake as you come up"

Anybody else see the light bulb come on over my head

 

[uzj100]

A-trac front and lock rear. If I use the brake a-trac turns off.

I need lots of practice and more instruction. Getting better just need to keep
Getting out there.

 

[rickysa]

Hey Izzy, didn't know you were part of that crew!! Great group of folks...super patient and wonderful teachers. I look forward to meeting you, as I told Scott, "You're going to get tired of seeing my face around here". I know there is some overlap between the UORTC and Overland and I'm trying to take every class I can find...I know how busy you folks are..I missed the 102 class (truck not ready yet) and spent a couple of hours with Scott as a kind of "private winch class", I just wish there were more opportunities (I'd do a "Coach and Ride" every weekend if it was available ).

I need lots of practice and more instruction. Getting better just need to keep
Getting out there.

Has ONSC ever gotten a group together to do a Big Creek day? $600 for the day and up to 30 rigs...shoot, if I could find 5 other guys, I'd be happy to set it up (and get one of the UORTC folks as a guide)

 

[GLTHFJ60]

I just can't subscribe to that method of driving. I'm sure it works for some people, but there are other methods that don't require fighting your brakes the whole way through the trail, that are equally "Tread Lightly". I've tried the two-foot method and in my experience it doesn't work for manual transmission vehicles.

Just because you use your lockers doesn't mean you're not "Treading Lightly". IMHO it's far worse for you to try to two-foot an obstacle without your lockers engaged, only to get stuck. From there, much worse options can result; damaging your vehicle and spilling fluids or breaking something, having to winch off of the landscape, etc. It's a much better option to set your lockers before an obstacle IF you feel that you won't make it through without them, to avoid getting stuck.

What is the driving school's opinion of lunchbox lockers?

Off-Road driving technique is an entirely different discussion than whether or not using lockers is "treading lightly".

 

[jamesurq]

But I like that clunk clunk sound when I'm pulling into Food Lion...

 

[erymer]

But I like that clunk clunk sound when I'm pulling into Food Lion...

yeah the "Hey Mister, I think you have something wrong with your truck" comment make me smile. lol

 

[lt1fire]

two foot driving doesn't really work with a manual its mostly an auto technique

for the most part my lockers are off until I get stuck or if I think I will need them for sure to get over something and don't want to spin my tires to create ruts

 

[R.K.]

I would say that most guys don't have selectable lockers. I understand selectable lockers are nice, but I prefer to be fully locked all the time - it's a simpler setup, and you know the traction will always be there.

I don't fully understand the "lockers cause trail damage" theory. You could also argue that all-terrain tires cause less trail damage than more aggressive tires.

 

[RedHeadedStepChild]

I would say that most guys don't have selectable lockers. I understand selectable lockers are nice, but I prefer to be fully locked all the time - it's a simpler setup, and you know the traction will always be there.

I don't fully understand the "lockers cause trail damage" theory. You could also argue that all-terrain tires cause less trail damage than more aggressive tires.

Fully locked all the time?
As in welded up diffs sort of locked?
As in you want all 4 wheels turning at the exact same rate regardless of the situation?
Are you trailering to events?
How do you stear?

That puts tremendous and unnecessary stresses on the driveline.

Lockers that are locked, when not needed, have the POTENTIAL to cause greater damage because they prevent the diffential rotation speeds of the tires and therefor cause 1 or more tires to spin/slip under certain conditions.
Spinning/slipping digs out the trail which is trail damage.
A more aggressive tire, driven correctly, will cause LESS damage because itis less likely to slip/spin.

Edit: to correct red wine induced typos

 

[GLTHFJ60]

That puts tremendous and unnecessary stresses on the driveline.

Fully locked 100% of the time puts dramatically less stress on the driveline, and transmission in particular, than driving through your brakes for days on end.

Driving unlocked all the time imo has a higher potential for slippage (and therefore trail damage) because you won't know you need lockers till after you've spun a tire or two.

Auto lockers are preferred, in most (if not all) offroad circumstances, to open differentials because they help prevent tire slippage. That's the whole point. Steering with your front locked isn't as hard as you think. Front lockers make the steering heavy, but my no means does it turn your truck into a slot car.

 

[RedHeadedStepChild]

Fully locked 100% of the time puts dramatically less stress on the driveline, and transmission in particular, than driving through your brakes for days on end.

Driving unlocked all the time imo has a higher potential for slippage (and therefore trail damage) because you won't know you need lockers till after you've spun a tire or two.

Auto lockers are preferred, in most (if not all) offroad circumstances, to open differentials.

If done correctly, one modulates the brakes and does not run high rpm, the stresses are not bad, and you still get some differential action. There is a reason that people that teach this method use the term "mechanical sympathy".
I have been on ONSC events, helping to a locked truck off the trail because it blew an axle, so I could walk up in my fully open runner using 2 feet.

I am assuming a level of skill and experience with my statements. If you are the type to approach an obstacle open, bang into it on the throttle and spin, well yes, that will cause damage. If you know your vehicle, you should be driving it correctly when you reach the obstacle. If you are locked all the time, you are slipping some wheel in every corner of the trail.

Can't comment on auto lockers, but personally I'd prefer my left foot with a selectable back up. This, as far as I can tell, is the same option employed by the guys that do this sort of training for a living.

 

[R.K.]

Fully locked all the time?
As in welded up diffs sort of locked?
As in you want all 4 wheels turning at the exact same rate regardless of the situation?
Are you trailering to events?
How do you stear?

That puts tremendous and unnecessary stresses on the driveline.

Lockers that are locked, when not needed, have the POTENTIAL to cause greater damage because they prevent the diffential rotation speeds of the tires and therefor cause 1 or more tires to spin/slip under certain conditions.
Spinning/slipping digs out the trail which is trail damage.
A more aggressive tire, driven correctly, will cause LESS damage because itis less likely to slip/spin.

Edit: to correct red wine induced typos

I run a Detroit locker in the rear axle and a Yukon Grizzly locker in the front axle. The front axle is a Dana 60 and the rear is a 14-bolt. Yes, I want all four tires to have power all of the time. I also run drive flanges on the front axle. I do trailer my rig to the trail, but I also drive it around town once in a while. It has full hydraulic steering, making steering while the front axle is engaged no problem.

The inside tire will spin a little when turning, but is is very minimal. Like I said, most guys I wheel with do not have selectable lockers. I've seen ARBs fail due to air supply problems. Fully locked is much more reliable.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

but personally I'd prefer my left foot with a selectable back up.

Thats the point, it's a personal preference thing when you're talking about driving technique. I'd much rather scrub an inside tire (by a small amount, not numbers of revolutions) around a turn than cause my automatic to slip more by using the brakes, but that's my preference.

Your point about helping a blown up locked truck off the trail with your open doesn't hold water. I've helped plenty of open trucks off the trail with my open or locked truck.

Izzy said it himself, using, or not using, your lockers, by itself, does not mean you are being more or less "tread lightly". It all comes down to driving technique and the technique depends on the vehicle. Making a blanket statement saying "this is how you should do it" is what I think is incorrect.

 

[weejub]

So two issues here:

1. Does a particular type of truck cause more wear and tear on trails.
2. Does a certain driving technique cause more wear and tear on the trails.

Both 1&2 are dependent. An open diff no locker mini truck can tear up a ton of crap vs a spooled rock crawler depending on the driver. A skilled driver in his vehicle can do less damage than a Honda Civic ..etc.

We are arguing a dependent set of alternative issues and the only sure thing is that people are just "talking past each other" without really communicating.

We could make some great matrix of the "perfect way" to drive everyone's trucks on here if we wanted, or we could just argue to argue and to try to prove we are right, or . . . .we could just understand each situation and help each other find what works as needed or show those who do need.

For my truck that has part time 4WD, no lockers, light-weight transfer case: if I have to go over one 15 minute obstacle in three days, the brake method is perfect. I'm not riding my brakes all day long for three days. I am "off-roading" lightly. If I add a rear locker, I may not brake at all for the right obstacle or ever again . . who cares, really? I am not doing anything different for the environment, either.

Obviously my big azz Tundra without ATRAC or LSD or lockers is different than my 4Runner with ATRAC and rear locker, which is much different than Johnny's truck, RKs truck, RHSCs truck and so on.