Does LX Really Have 2 More HP?

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Are we sure it isn't pacarded as 91 Octane Required for EPA reasons? If the ECU and the hard bits are identical then maybe it's just a technicality of how Toyota went through EPA testing?

On my 100s, I run 92 on the trail rig and 87 on the town rig. Why? It's not for cost savings it's for range. The 100 always seems to be right at the hairy edge of range compared to my trailmates. Even if it's only another 10 miles on a tank, that sometimes can make the difference when you're a long way from civilization...
 
Update: still using regular gas, calculated mileage still not varying more than .1 or .2mpg typically. Premium fuel prices are getting stupid, over 3.75 a gallon locally. Given the shared ECU, not convinced there is any performance difference between the LC and LX engine, just marketing.
 
^As an engineer, I can’t say I’m not slightly disappointed. As much as we design things to be optimal, you can never discount the end user to take it upon themselves to surmise their own conclusions on how to use the systems. It’s why we often have to consider the lowest common denominator. Which means the engineers who calibrated the system understand this too, and it will have the right facilities in place to account for such use without negative repercussions. Guess that’s all that matters in the end. Though if you ever on occasion wind up driving with heavy loads or towing, I’d encourage you to use higher grade gas.
 
When 91 and 87 was only a $0.20 difference, I used to run 91. But now its 50-80 cents more expensive and its become a problem. Sure if I was in a turbo engine, I'd run 91 but in a 3UR-fe, no need.
 
Agree I’m on The coast of Florida at sea level with no hills driving a long between 35 and 50 miles an hour should be able to run 87 versus expensive 91 if I ever head to the Rockies I’ll put in the expensive stuff it’s about $.60-$.70 a gallon more here in Jacksonville for premium over regular
 
As of today, I have yet to see or hear of any documented case or even hearsay where using 87 Octane gas in the LX570's 3UR-fe engine has caused permanent damage, need of engine rebuild or replacement. If there are any, inquiring minds would like to know. Until then. 87 regular it is for me.
 
Good reading

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/the-real-impact-of-using-wrong-fuel-octane-1785829176

"I saw this post on fuel octane on LifeHacker. I work at Ford Motor Company as an Advanced Engine Development Engineer and I’d like to clear some things up, since there is some inaccurate advice on that post,

My views/comments are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my employer (We have these monthly online training sessions, and one of them told me to put this if I identify who I am, so hopefully I don’t get in trouble...)

First Some Background on how Octane is determined:

Octane on the fuel pump is known as Anti Knock Index or AKI, and is the average of a fuels Research Octane Number and Motor Octane Number [(R+M)/2]. The MON and RON are determined by using a special engine with variable compression ratio, and comparing the knocking qualities of a given fuel to that of reference fuels, isooctane and n-heptane. MON and RON have different engine operating conditions, like engine speed, intake temperature, etc. The slope created by these two numbers are important to us engineers in understanding a fuel’s knocking quality in various engine conditions (like boosted, vs non boosted). To the average Joe, the average of these two numbers (what you see on the pump) is what matters.

Next, some background on what knock actually is, and what Octane does to prevent it:

In a spark ignited engine, combustion does not occur instantly at all points in the combustion chamber. Combustion starts at the spark plug and propagates outward roughly spherically. Flame speed is determined by many factors, such as tumble, swirl, piston design, etc. The biggest impact on flame speed is engine speed, so as the engine spins faster, combustion occurs faster. (This is very convenient in terms of designing ignition advance and valve timing)

So, what is knock? Well, as the flame front is propagating across the combustion chamber, the unburnt portion, or end gas, experiences and increase in pressure and temperature. If the increase is high enough, the end gas will spontaneously combust. This spontaneous combustion is very fast and rather violent, so it causes the engine structure to resonate. The resonance is what we hear as knock.

What does Octane do? An increase in octane rating of a fuel represents an increase in the fuel’s auto ignition temperature and pressure. It does not change combustion speed or anything like that. So, if the fuel has a higher auto-ignition pressure and temperature, it takes higher pressure and temperature for knock to occur. The actual mechanics of how this works is complicated chemistry, and this post is long enough already...

Now some background on knock sensors.

A knock sensor is a piezoelectric device. When the piezo crystal inside experiences a force, it generates a voltage. That voltage is then measured by the PCM. The important part of this signal is the frequency of the signal. All engine components create vibration, so the PCM must analyze the signal, looking for specific frequencies associated with engine knock. The PCM performs an FFT (Fast Fourier Transform), or some other proprietary algorithm, to translate the signal from time domain to frequency domain. The results of this FFT are then analyzed to determine if the engine is knocking. If it is determined the engine is knocking, timing is reduced to prevent knocking. This is computationally intensive, so it is difficult to do for transients, like tip-ins, tip-outs, engine shifts, etc. Also, if an engine component creates frequencies near the knocking frequency, it can be difficult to distinguish. So, knock detection is mathematically difficult and computationally intensive, so it can be difficult to do in all circumstances.

So, what happens if you put a higher octane than your car requires?

In short, nothing. Absolutely nothing (except waste money). If the engine calls for 87 octane, then the timing is set for 87 octane. If you put in higher octane, say 93, there is no cause for knock concerns, since it is designed for 87 octane.

What about special additives in premium fuels?

Premium fuel does not have any additional detergents, or anything like that. All fuels must meet strict regulations on detergents, octane levels, sulfur contents, etc. etc. This means, other than octane rating, all fuels are created equal, within a certain standard. This standard is actually very important to engine design, so that we engineers know, within a tolerance, what fuel you will always have in your engine. Now, I say within a tolerance, because fuel formulation can change. One particular example is in colder temperatures. In colder temperatures, the evaporation temperature (Volatility) of the fuel can be lowered, allowing for the use of less expensive additives to meet the octane requirements. This is why you may notice a change in fuel economy when comparing summer to winter.

What happens if you put a lower octane than your car requires?

In short, MAYBE nothing. This one is kind of a big risk. The stack exchange article says that a modern knock sensor will correct for lower octane fuel. This is true, but only in steady state conditions; like cruising down the road, or steady uphill, etc. Transient conditions are where the problems lie. Since it does take time to analyze the knock sensor signal, fast changes in engine load or speed, are difficult to prevent knock. Every automaker is going to be different in this regard, since the ability to analyze this knock quickly depends on the skill of the programmers and calibrators and even the speed of the PCM processor. So, if you put in a lower octane fuel, and then go drive your car hard, press the accelerator quickly, it is possible to experience heavy knock, and possible engine damage. I will say, it is unlikely to actually happen in cars produced in the last few years, but you are certainly exposing your engine to the possibility. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS use the fuel recommended in the owners manual of your car, or any signs on the fuel door or cap. When engineers say to use a certain fuel, we have good reasons for doing so.

TL:DR

Always follow what your manual recommends. If your engine calls for 93 octane, USE 93 octane. Don’t risk engine damage."
 
Good reading

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/the-real-impact-of-using-wrong-fuel-octane-1785829176

"I saw this post on fuel octane on LifeHacker. I work at Ford Motor Company as an Advanced Engine Development Engineer and I’d like to clear some things up, since there is some inaccurate advice on that post,

My views/comments are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my employer (We have these monthly online training sessions, and one of them told me to put this if I identify who I am, so hopefully I don’t get in trouble...)

First Some Background on how Octane is determined:

Octane on the fuel pump is known as Anti Knock Index or AKI, and is the average of a fuels Research Octane Number and Motor Octane Number [(R+M)/2]. The MON and RON are determined by using a special engine with variable compression ratio, and comparing the knocking qualities of a given fuel to that of reference fuels, isooctane and n-heptane. MON and RON have different engine operating conditions, like engine speed, intake temperature, etc. The slope created by these two numbers are important to us engineers in understanding a fuel’s knocking quality in various engine conditions (like boosted, vs non boosted). To the average Joe, the average of these two numbers (what you see on the pump) is what matters.

Next, some background on what knock actually is, and what Octane does to prevent it:

In a spark ignited engine, combustion does not occur instantly at all points in the combustion chamber. Combustion starts at the spark plug and propagates outward roughly spherically. Flame speed is determined by many factors, such as tumble, swirl, piston design, etc. The biggest impact on flame speed is engine speed, so as the engine spins faster, combustion occurs faster. (This is very convenient in terms of designing ignition advance and valve timing)

So, what is knock? Well, as the flame front is propagating across the combustion chamber, the unburnt portion, or end gas, experiences and increase in pressure and temperature. If the increase is high enough, the end gas will spontaneously combust. This spontaneous combustion is very fast and rather violent, so it causes the engine structure to resonate. The resonance is what we hear as knock.

What does Octane do? An increase in octane rating of a fuel represents an increase in the fuel’s auto ignition temperature and pressure. It does not change combustion speed or anything like that. So, if the fuel has a higher auto-ignition pressure and temperature, it takes higher pressure and temperature for knock to occur. The actual mechanics of how this works is complicated chemistry, and this post is long enough already...

Now some background on knock sensors.

A knock sensor is a piezoelectric device. When the piezo crystal inside experiences a force, it generates a voltage. That voltage is then measured by the PCM. The important part of this signal is the frequency of the signal. All engine components create vibration, so the PCM must analyze the signal, looking for specific frequencies associated with engine knock. The PCM performs an FFT (Fast Fourier Transform), or some other proprietary algorithm, to translate the signal from time domain to frequency domain. The results of this FFT are then analyzed to determine if the engine is knocking. If it is determined the engine is knocking, timing is reduced to prevent knocking. This is computationally intensive, so it is difficult to do for transients, like tip-ins, tip-outs, engine shifts, etc. Also, if an engine component creates frequencies near the knocking frequency, it can be difficult to distinguish. So, knock detection is mathematically difficult and computationally intensive, so it can be difficult to do in all circumstances.

So, what happens if you put a higher octane than your car requires?

In short, nothing. Absolutely nothing (except waste money). If the engine calls for 87 octane, then the timing is set for 87 octane. If you put in higher octane, say 93, there is no cause for knock concerns, since it is designed for 87 octane.

What about special additives in premium fuels?

Premium fuel does not have any additional detergents, or anything like that. All fuels must meet strict regulations on detergents, octane levels, sulfur contents, etc. etc. This means, other than octane rating, all fuels are created equal, within a certain standard. This standard is actually very important to engine design, so that we engineers know, within a tolerance, what fuel you will always have in your engine. Now, I say within a tolerance, because fuel formulation can change. One particular example is in colder temperatures. In colder temperatures, the evaporation temperature (Volatility) of the fuel can be lowered, allowing for the use of less expensive additives to meet the octane requirements. This is why you may notice a change in fuel economy when comparing summer to winter.

What happens if you put a lower octane than your car requires?

In short, MAYBE nothing. This one is kind of a big risk. The stack exchange article says that a modern knock sensor will correct for lower octane fuel. This is true, but only in steady state conditions; like cruising down the road, or steady uphill, etc. Transient conditions are where the problems lie. Since it does take time to analyze the knock sensor signal, fast changes in engine load or speed, are difficult to prevent knock. Every automaker is going to be different in this regard, since the ability to analyze this knock quickly depends on the skill of the programmers and calibrators and even the speed of the PCM processor. So, if you put in a lower octane fuel, and then go drive your car hard, press the accelerator quickly, it is possible to experience heavy knock, and possible engine damage. I will say, it is unlikely to actually happen in cars produced in the last few years, but you are certainly exposing your engine to the possibility. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS use the fuel recommended in the owners manual of your car, or any signs on the fuel door or cap. When engineers say to use a certain fuel, we have good reasons for doing so.

TL:DR

Always follow what your manual recommends. If your engine calls for 93 octane, USE 93 octane. Don’t risk engine damage."
 
Great info. Thank you,

But wow. I’ll say again... If the Lexus guys really only got one half of one percent power increase for THOUSANDS of fuel dollars increase...they really kinda screwed the Lexus drivers.

$10,000 more fuel dollars over 200k miles...all for a useless 2hp from 381 to 383??

What a horrible, wasteful tune!
 
Great info. Thank you,

But wow. I’ll say again... If the Lexus guys really only got one half of one percent power increase for THOUSANDS of fuel dollars increase...they really kinda screwed the Lexus drivers.

$10,000 more fuel dollars over 200k miles...all for a useless 2hp from 381 to 383??

What a horrible, wasteful tune!

And what's the problem with that? I expect more, pay more, get more. Everyone of my cars use premium. None of them get better mpg than in the teens.

Would I be satisfied with an LC. Even with being able to save thousands of dollars in fuel? In a word, no.
 
And what's the problem with that? I expect more, pay more, get more. Everyone of my cars use premium. None of them get better mpg than in the teens.

Would I be satisfied with an LC. Even with being able to save thousands of dollars in fuel? In a word, no.

Heh.

OK.

If you are happy, then I am genuinely happy for you. :) We are just different and that’s all good!

For me, mod $ requires time and savings. So I look at $10,000 over 200k miles fuel as... Money for front/rear bumpers, sliders, winch & more. Or...money down the drain. If $10k is no biggie, then by all means...happily buy premium for all vehicles, required or not!
 
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Heh.

OK.

If you are happy, then I am genuinely happy for you. :) We are just different and that’s all good!

For me, mod $ requires time and savings. So I look at $10,000 over 200k miles fuel as... Money for front/rear bumpers, sliders, winch & more. Or...money down the drain. If $10k is no biggie, then by all means...happily buy premium for all vehicles, required or not!

Different strokes for different folks. Nothing wrong with that.

And I'm sure you know you're in this deeper than I am, with all your mods. Despite my using premium, you'll still spend significantly more on gas on account of those very mods.
 
Different strokes for different folks. Nothing wrong with that.

And I'm sure you know you're in this deeper than I am, with all your mods. Despite my using premium, you'll still spend significantly more on gas on account of those very mods.

Ya. I’m in the LC anyway...so no pressure re premium.

Just glad I’m not stuck shelling out for premium on top of my super-crappy MPG...! :)
 
I have had both... no questions Lx570 is nicer all the way around, interior fit finish, interior is quieter, doors shut with a more solid feel, there is a place for your head phones and remote, concierge climate system is so nice, the big ass screen is nice lighting is better, the leather seats are softer and more comfortable heads up display is cool, more adjustments in the driver seat, credit cards key is so nice for the wife, the seats look a lot better... I can go on and on for a minute but I think that’s enough...

That being said if I had to only choose one I would take the Land Cruiser... the lx seriously comes with 21” rims and the front and rear bumpers are a joke so low , they come with the ridiculously low running boards that can’t easily be taken off are horrible for off-roading and going out to have fun....

So for our everyday stuff and just plain road trips the LX570 is king.

For off-road adventures give me the Land Cruiser...

Different cars for different uses why argue just buy both lmao
 
Great info. Thank you,

But wow. I’ll say again... If the Lexus guys really only got one half of one percent power increase for THOUSANDS of fuel dollars increase...they really kinda screwed the Lexus drivers.

$10,000 more fuel dollars over 200k miles...all for a useless 2hp from 381 to 383??

What a horrible, wasteful tune!

Your argument makes perfect sense it is ridiculous that you would have to spend $.40-$.70 more per gallon for the same engine that get you two more horse power doesn’t make sense something is wrong with Lexus and their engineering team. Now if it was 20 horse power that might make sense but 2 hp is BS
 
Your argument makes perfect sense it is ridiculous that you would have to spend $.40-$.70 more per gallon for the same engine that get you two more horse power doesn’t make sense something is wrong with Lexus and their engineering team. Now if it was 20 horse power that might make sense but 2 hp is BS

The internet is amazing. Sparing over gas octane level and per gallon pricing on a $90K vehicle. Freaking 1st world problems. I would imagine when 87 went from $2.25 per gallon to $2.75 a gallon you stopped driving as much?
 
The internet is amazing. Sparing over gas octane level and per gallon pricing on a $90K vehicle. Freaking 1st world problems. I would imagine when 87 went from $2.25 per gallon to $2.75 a gallon you stopped driving as much?

Some of us saved to afford a $40k used vehicle, and the extra $12 per tank actually matters.

And I agree. The internet & 1st world attitudes/assumptions are amazing. ;)
 
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I'd gladly pay for premium if it bought me range as it did in the 100. On that truck, the $/mile was pretty much a wash with premium. But I picked 5-up 10 miles of range on a tank. Doesn't seem like much, but if you've ever done it that's a long walk.
 

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