CT 26 water cooling flow

[Tapage]

They're probably copying toyota.

probably .. honestly I feel better knowing that Toyota make water cooled turbos and if I can keep running as is .. better to me.

Remember a friend that buy a Turbo kit for he's 105 series from one seller in Holland believe .. that don't come with water cooled ( was a CT26 ) and the seller said that the water supply are not necessary.

 

[jake2far]

yes, Alamo is very good.
i called Shawn who i have dealt with for a decade or more.

i will not turn this into a he said she said.

lets talk reason:
the water jacket is a very small orfice that is located NO WHERE near the waste gate housing. there is no way in hell that running the coolant through the water jackets will prevent waste gate housing. duh.

running the coolant makes the system "a bit more forgiving" but proper warm up and cool down is essential no matter whether you do to do not run the cooling. it is not a cure all.

i will adhere to his words "i do not concur"...

in the end, you do it your way, i will do it mine. there is no harm in running the cooling and there is no harm in NOT running the cooling in our applications.

The "there is no harm in running the coolant and there is no harm in NOT running the coolant in our applications" shows really how poorly you understand coking and thermal shock in a turbo "in our application"
2 links were provided for coking in one of my past posts
http://www.exxonmobil.com/lubes/exxonmobil/emal/files/TTopic6_OilCoking1.pdf
http://www.exxonmobil.com/lubes/exxonmobil/emal/files/TTopic7_OilCoking2.pdf
which i feel you failed to read properly. Running cold water (210F) thru a turbo housing which can run as high as 1400F is not good for the turbo for 2 major reasons.
1. The turbo is a thermal pump working off the heat of the exhaust, cooling the housing defeats the thermal part of the pump.
2. The cooling and heating cycle of on throttle off throttle causes a heat difference faster and more sudden if cold water is passing thru the housing while running than if no water is passing thru it while running. This situation results in thermal stresses that can and do crack the exhaust housing.
The proper hook up of the water lines can best be described as a cool down timer they should only flow water to the turbo after key off not during run (read thermal siphon). If you had read any of my posts almost all of this was stated and provided in links. Telling Zekester not to hook them up or hook them up wrong can and will cause coking. Now if you will read the link to exxon mobil the damage caused by your advice can cause major damage to the engine depending on the type of coke formed and whether or not it comes loose. The picture and part number was provided which includes the path for the water to work as a thermal siphon so Zekester would have the correct water path at the correct time designed by an engineer for a problem that really exists. I hope you provide warranty repair for your ignorant advice, when motors begin to fail because of your expert advice for reason you do not comprehend.


Jim

 

[Dougal]

The "there is no harm in running the coolant and there is no harm in NOT running the coolant in our applications" shows really how poorly you understand coking and thermal shock in a turbo "in our application"
2 links were provided for coking in one of my past posts
http://www.exxonmobil.com/lubes/exxonmobil/emal/files/TTopic6_OilCoking1.pdf
http://www.exxonmobil.com/lubes/exxonmobil/emal/files/TTopic7_OilCoking2.pdf
which i feel you failed to read properly. Running cold water (210F) thru a turbo housing which can run as high as 1400F is not good for the turbo for 2 major reasons.
1. The turbo is a thermal pump working off the heat of the exhaust, cooling the housing defeats the thermal part of the pump.
2. The cooling and heating cycle of on throttle off throttle causes a heat difference faster and more sudden if cold water is passing thru the housing while running than if no water is passing thru it while running. This situation results in thermal stresses that can and do crack the exhaust housing.
The proper hook up of the water lines can best be described as a cool down timer they should only flow water to the turbo after key off not during run (read thermal siphon). If you had read any of my posts almost all of this was stated and provided in links. Telling Zekester not to hook them up or hook them up wrong can and will cause coking. Now if you will read the link to exxon mobil the damage caused by your advice can cause major damage to the engine depending on the type of coke formed and whether or not it comes loose. The picture and part number was provided which includes the path for the water to work as a thermal siphon so Zekester would have the correct water path at the correct time designed by an engineer for a problem that really exists. I hope you provide warranty repair for your ignorant advice, when motors begin to fail because of your expert advice for reason you do not comprehend.


Jim

Jim, I think you need to sit back and read this stuff you keep linking up.

The garrett reference is for turbos on petrol vehicles. I've been pretty clear on that right from the start that this is about water lines on diesel turbos, not petrol.
Linking up lots of articles on water jacketed petrol turbos just reinforces that you are missing that point.

Turbo bearing housings do not ever reach 1400F. They are continuously cooled by engine oil when the engine is running, the hot shutdown is a problem on petrol engines because even at idle their EGT's are much higher than diesels.

Exhaust housing cracks have nothing to do with a water jacketing bearing housing. The temperature of the exhaust housing is not affected by the water jacket.

My diesel has done over 400,000km. It is factory turbocharged and has never had a turbo with water lines connected. There have been no related turbocharger or oil problems. I change my oil at 10,000km intervals.
Garrett's diesel-only turbochargers (their entire VNT lines) do not have water cooled housings.
Holsets diesel-only turbochargers do not have water cooled housings.

 

[jake2far]

Jim, I think you need to sit back and read this stuff you keep linking up.

The garrett reference is for turbos on petrol vehicles. I've been pretty clear on that right from the start that this is about water lines on diesel turbos, not petrol.
Linking up lots of articles on water jacketed petrol turbos just reinforces that you are missing that point.

Turbo bearing housings do not ever reach 1400F. They are continuously cooled by engine oil when the engine is running, the hot shutdown is a problem on petrol engines because even at idle their EGT's are much higher than diesels.

Exhaust housing cracks have nothing to do with a water jacketing bearing housing. The temperature of the exhaust housing is not affected by the water jacket.

My diesel has done over 400,000km. It is factory turbocharged and has never had a turbo with water lines connected. There have been no related turbocharger or oil problems. I change my oil at 10,000km intervals.
Garrett's diesel-only turbochargers (their entire VNT lines) do not have water cooled housings.
Holsets diesel-only turbochargers do not have water cooled housings.

Nice of you to join in, problem is you can't read, the coke issue I posted from Exxon was for an aviation oil not "petrol" as you noted. Where on earth do you come with the coking issue doesn't exist is diesels? The problem as noted in the Exxon post is temperature which if memory serves me was around 425F, are you saying that the turbo on a diesel won't hit 425F?
How about this one, Toyota 13B-T turbo was designed with water passages that are hooked up to the thermostat housing as a thermal siphon for the very reason listed. Why? Because the engineers were not as smart as you and hooked it becasue they were there and did not know what to do? The info presented to you is accurate and valid attacking me won't change that, to say its "diesel not petrol "that makes a difference? How does the oil in the turbo housing know what generated the heat petrol or diesel? It is the heat that causes the coking issue not if it is gas or diesel.
Lets see the turbo housing on a diesel will never see 1400F. Really then why put an EGT and limit it to 1200F The temperature number I gave you was, I called Garrett and talked to one of there turbo experts he gave me this info. Why don't you provide your source of data, name, phone number, or web link? I have and it is not me that is saying this.
In conclussion the only discussion you have given is it is not a petrol it is diesel, wow the turbo can really tell the difference?
As far as water not in contact with the housing you need to read about the princples of thermodynamics, there are three types of heat energy movement, conduction, convection, and radiant. I will not bore you with explainations as I doubt you would listen. Try looking them up as all 3 are at play in this issue to some degree.
Here is one, why install a turbo timer on a diesel if coking doesn't exist, caused by what? If the water jacket housing has nothing to do temp in the exhaust housing why does the water passage exist and where is the heat above 425F coming from?

I am deeply sorry for offending anyone by this post.

Jim

 

[Dougal]

Nice of you to join in, problem is you can't read, the coke issue I posted from Exxon was for an aviation oil not "petrol" as you noted. Where on earth do you come with the coking issue doesn't exist is diesels? The problem as noted in the Exxon post is temperature which if memory serves me was around 425F, are you saying that the turbo on a diesel won't hit 425F?
How about this one, Toyota 13B-T turbo was designed with water passages that are hooked up to the thermostat housing as a thermal siphon for the very reason listed. Why? Because the engineers were not as smart as you and hooked it becasue they were there and did not know what to do? The info presented to you is accurate and valid attacking me won't change that, to say its "diesel not petrol "that makes a difference? How does the oil in the turbo housing know what generated the heat petrol or diesel? It is the heat that causes the coking issue not if it is gas or diesel.
Lets see the turbo housing on a diesel will never see 1400F. Really then why put an EGT and limit it to 1200F The temperature number I gave you was, I called Garrett and talked to one of there turbo experts he gave me this info. Why don't you provide your source of data, name, phone number, or web link? I have and it is not me that is saying this.
In conclussion the only discussion you have given is it is not a petrol it is diesel, wow the turbo can really tell the difference?
As far as water not in contact with the housing you need to read about the princples of thermodynamics, there are three types of heat energy movement, conduction, convection, and radiant. I will not bore you with explainations as I doubt you would listen. Try looking them up as all 3 are at play in this issue to some degree.
Here is one, why install a turbo timer on a diesel if coking doesn't exist, caused by what? If the water jacket housing has nothing to do temp in the exhaust housing why does the water passage exist and where is the heat above 425F coming from?

I am deeply sorry for offending anyone by this post.

Jim

Time to calm down a read my posts Jim. All those points are already covered in this topic.

 

[jake2far]

Time to calm down a read my posts Jim. All those points are already covered in this topic.

The original intent of this thread was to ask why are there water lines on a CT26 turbo and where do you hook them up.
I have read all these posting and have become aware that I do not have a clue what I am talking about. I sincerely apologize to all for my very rude and inconsiderate behavior.
In the spirit of the Mud web site could I please ask several questions? I too have a CT26 turbo that has water lines coming from it and they hook up to the top of the thermostat housing both going into the same cavity. For the life of me I can not figure out how this works, why they are there, and how to correctly hook them up. Can someone please tell me why they are there, how they work, and how to correctly hook them up?
The motor is a 1987 13B-T that came out of a JDM BJ74.
I have included some pictures of the whole set up and some close ups that show the 2 ports in the thermostat housing.

Thank you for any help you can offer me as I can see no way this can work, is it possible someone hooked it up wrong?

Jim

 

[jake2far]

I could not get the fourth picture on the last post.

Since both ports are above the thermostat how does water flow from one port to the other through the lines to the turbo?
I have heard that these are not needed at all and was wondering why they are present ?

Any help would be greatly appreciated


Thank you,
Jim

 

[crushers]

oh i understand completely,

if you and Mike want to go to bed together in this debate that if fine by me. lets see, i have a garret turbo on my PZ that has been extremely abused for 4 years with hot shut downs, cold water dunkings, extended (forgotten) oil changes and it is STILL pumping out 16 lbs of boost, no leaking, no water lines hooked up... i must have just gotten lucking... yah that is it. i know of a few PZ and HZ running around with a hundred thou or more km since the installation with no issues, i have the same with the 3Bs i installed turbos on and nothing... damn lucky i guess...

and wait, there is more. how many 2LTE engines have turbo issues? dozens that i know of. how many of the HDTs have had there turbos rebuilt? dozens. and these are FACTORY WATER cooled units. don't beleive me then contact Clarion in BC, Outback imports, 4 wheel auto...

but in the end, you have a stong, misguided opinion and who am i to tell you different. (after all if it is on the internet, it must be true.)

make sure you go to all the threads about oil, oil change intervals, oil types to use, and post up your #1 reason to change your oil regularly and at short intervals ... to prevent the coking issues.

 

[jake2far]

s*** all flows down hill and pools around your feet. The object is to
keep shovelling it away. If the s*** is gaining you better figure out
how to shovel faster Dave Stedman 03/20/09

Love the quote, Dave is a great guy and I really appreciate him for all the help he has given me.
I have never met you, people tell me you are a great guy so as I have said in the last post, I am sorry for offending you.
I have no idea what I am talking about, please address the posting about the water lines and hook ups as I have no clue.
Jim

 

[crushers]

i am not offended, i figure if one can dish it out they should be able to take it.
i am a great guy, just opinionated, ask anyone that really knows me or wheels with me.

hooking up the water lines properly (as per Toyota) you will need the proper thermostate housing.

 

[jake2far]

i am not offended, i figure if one can dish it out they should be able to take it.
i am a great guy, just opinionated, ask anyone that really knows me or wheels with me.

hooking up the water lines properly (as per Toyota) you will need the proper thermostate housing.

Thank you for the reply, can you please tell me how it works and why they are there? I know you have a vast knowedge base from your experience and I would really appreciate the input. The lines exist and they hook up to the same cavity, how do they work and why are they there?
I am being serious I don't have a clue how they work, is the hook up shown wrong? Is this Toyota or did someone do it wrong?
I am a rookie to this type of work and would really like to not do it wrong.

Thank you,

Jim

 

[crushers]

as i mentioned before, the system as per toyota does not work well...
and
as i mentioned before i do not believe in the system for a diesel so i do not care to know how it works or how to make it better. AFAIAC, the system is a joke on a diesel. we have debated it for as long as i care to.
if you can make Toyota's design better, please post it up.

if i was interested enough then i would design a completely internal feed pump and circulate the coolant with pressure instead of convection.

 

[jake2far]

all the bickering aside....

my questions was intended to find out what lines to use, not to start a debate on using them or not....

I'm thinking it can't hurt to use it, now am asking what the best way to run the lines is...

Zekester said it well. Can anyone tell us how and why the lines are there and where to route them?
Thank you,

Jim

 

[Zekester]

oh i understand completely,

if you and Mike want to go to bed together in this debate that if fine by me. .

how did I get involved? I asked simple question....

and now you put me in bed with somoene?

 

[crushers]

when there is a discussion/debate there is two sides.

this thread turned into a debate through no intention of yours, it is what happens on the internet.
think coffee room or a wheeling trip around the campfire.
one guy says "hey, i am hooking up the water lines to a turbo." now you could answer the question and that is the end of the conversation... boring.

or

someone else says "hey, you don't need to do that. waste of energy"

then a discussion takes place.
you might end up with an answer (hopefully) or you might not. in the end those involved or watcing the discussion might learn something out of it.

"in bed together" is another way of saying "on the same side". that is all.

problem with your question, as shown, there is no easy answer other than "get a factory thermostate housing" which has been pointed out.

 

[cruiser_guy]

how did I get involved? I asked simple question....

and now you put me in bed with somoene?

Was the photos of my 3B in the FJ45LV of no help?

 

[sandcruiser]

huh.... so, using the heater lines might not be such a great solution

That seems to be the only common ground here.
Side A: "Don't bother w/ the water hookup at all"
Side B: "You want convective water circulation off of the tstat housing"

Interesting.

Maybe a good solution for aftermarket turbos would be some way to continue to circulate the oil after shutdown, without a turbo timer. I'm thinking some sort of fuel pump that can handle the high viscosity and the heat of the motor oil, that draws post-filter, and pushes oil through the turbo for a minute or three after shutdown.

Seems to me that would help prevent the oil from coking on the hot bearings, and it would provide some measure of cooling for the turbo itself as the oil radiates heat into the sump.

Probably overkill.... but if I were to find all of the mods on this board that are overkill, my fingers would go numb from the typing before I was done.

 

[cruiser_guy]

huh.... so, using the heater lines might not be such a great solution

That seems to be the only common ground here.
Side A: "Don't bother w/ the water hookup at all"
Side B: "You want convective water circulation off of the tstat housing"

Interesting.

Using the heater lines is EXACTLY what AXT does and is also what I've been doing on my BJ60 with the AXT kit, on the FJ55 with an aftermarket setup and the FJ45LV with a CT26 setup. Obviously there must be a pressure difference there to circulate water otherwise the heaters wouldn't heat. Frankly, I think the miniscule amount of heat removed by the coolant while the engine is under load is not going to affect turbo function enough to be a concern. The benefit, as I see it, is that at shut down I can allow the truck to idle and thereby circulate coolant though the bearing housing to facilitate cooling it off and avoid oil coking, especially when using lesser quality oil.

You can agree, disagree or whatever. Frankly I don't mind or care. I'm not causing any harm to my engine in doing so and that's really all I care about.

 

[sandcruiser]

Side C: "Using the heater line works great."

Interesting.

There goes the consensus.

So now the question might be: Anyone think that running the water will do damage to anything?

This is all academic to me- I'm not likely to disconnect my factory water cooling from the turbo unless there is pretty strong and compelling evidence that it does damage or somehow encourages magic unicorns to jump around in my muffler, poking holes in the exhaust and s***ting in my filters.

If it does that-- the lines have to go!

 

[Zekester]

Was the photos of my 3B in the FJ45LV of no help?

yes they helped, sorry, for some reason your mail ended up in my junk drawer, and I haven't had a chance to reply...