Even with the auto trans you tend to spin the tires before you get traction, being able to turn the tires at a very low speed gives you a better chance of getting traction on rocky obsticles.
Crawler Box: What would you pay? (1 Viewer)
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TiredIronGRB said:
The problem with going too low is the cost of any speed in low range between obstacles even in "drive". You might say "then shift to hi", but that doesn't work when you are wheeling at 9,000 to 11,000 feet. This quandry suggests that the Aussie crawler that gives you a regular low range and then ultra low is probably the best solution for those with the huge tires. It is 3 selections instead of only 2.
I personally don't find the statement above to be the case (spin before traction), or at least not in a limiting way as the people I've been out with that have crawlers (Runner) tend to spin and need to "bump" at the same points I do. What I do find is on very steep stuff being on 4.10's makes the torque converter very unhappy.
There are lots of way to gain control. I have the factory hand throttle, which provides an amazing amount of control even with 4.10's and 35" trxus in reasonably hardcore rock crawling. You just spool it up to about 1,800 RPM, lock it in, and let off the brakes. Amazing how effective it is.
Very low gears, diff or otherwise, have drawbacks. The 80 can be run on 4.10's with 35's if we just had that t-case reduction (and I would not pay $2K for that). A 4:1 for around the cost of diff gears plus hand throttle and it would go anywhere I would be willing to take it with plenty of control.
Nay
I'm with Nay on this. Give us a gear to put in the case and that's it. I'm personally not that much of a mountain goat in my rig to need a crawler box. But if i could get just slightly lower gearing when i'm in low i'd be happy.
Newb looking for info here:Nay said:
Am I correct in assuming the above post about the lack of need for a crawler box is referring only to the uphill side of things where the torque converter is effectively acting to further gear things down, and not referring to the downhill side of things, where the torque converter doesn't help to slow things down?
I think I want an extra-low crawler box so that I can improve my control through compression braking on steep downhill sections of both solid rock and scree.
The stock low range just isn't slow enough at idle on a steep downill, and when I use the brakes to further slow the velocity during descent on steep grades, I have to fight both gravity and the tremendous torque produced by the low range and first gear combo. It's actually easier to shift the tranny into neutral and use the brakes alone, but this makes it more prone to sliding on scree, hence my thought that an ultra-low range would allow me to descend in a more controlled manner.
I don't have any experience using a crawler box, so please speak slowly and use small words so that I will be sure to understand.
psfpilot said:Newb looking for info here:
Am I correct in assuming the above post about the lack of need for a crawler box is referring only to the uphill side of things where the torque converter is effectively acting to further gear things down, and not referring to the downhill side of things, where the torque converter doesn't help to slow things down?
I think I want an extra-low crawler box so that I can improve my control through compression braking on steep downhill sections of both solid rock and scree.
The stock low range just isn't slow enough at idle on a steep downill, and when I use the brakes to further slow the velocity during descent on steep grades, I have to fight both gravity and the tremendous torque produced by the low range and first gear combo. It's actually easier to shift the tranny into neutral and use the brakes alone, but this makes it more prone to sliding on scree, hence my thought that an ultra-low range would allow me to descend in a more controlled manner.
I don't have any experience using a crawler box, so please speak slowly and use small words so that I will be sure to understand.
The advantage of a crawler box is that it adds onto your stock t-case gearing. If, as I have been advocating, you had a 4:1 low range kit, then you still have two gears in the t-case: high and low, and your max reduction is 4:1 (this would still help your downhills tremendously). Now if you add a crawler box with say a 4:1 reduction, then you have your stock 2.2:1 low range (or whatever the exact ratio is) for general usage, and you can engage the crawler for extremely low range of say 6.2:1 (or is it actually a multipler of 2.2 * 4???). So you now have 3 gears in the entire transfer case mechanism split between two boxes (4 Hi, 4 Low, 4 Low + Crawler).
A crawler (in essense second t-case) is how you get the ultra low gearing only when you need it, but the spend is much higher and to date requires physical mods to the chassis/gas tank. You also shorten your rear driveshaft so you will be replacing it.
If you are going to put out a crawler, it has to limit the mods to the vehicle to the maximum extent possible, and IMO, gas tank mods are entirely out of the question for anything designed for a mass market. I doubt most people would be comfortable even with having to cut a hole in the floor for the shifter and nothing more. A 4:1 uses that same little knob that you use today to shift into low. Somebody who gets this out on the market, if it is technically feasible, is going to make a nice chunk of change.
Nay
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Cube Dweller
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Nay said:
Nay, I agree with most of what you've written above, except the part about hacking a hole in the floor. I'm assuming you're familiar with the dual mini case scenarios out there and it doesn't seem to be an issue for most in that crowd (myself included) to chop a hole in the tunnel. As 80's continue to drop in price, the trama to some about hacking a hole in the floor will diminish. Besides, with the extra control of super low gearing, one could arguably prevent the trama of some sheet metal damage
Cube Dweller
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BTW, the more comments the better. Obviously my friend is reading this thread and the comments will help him make the determination whether or not to pursue it.
Incidently, I have miminal interest in this happening either way, I will in no way benefit financially and it will be years before our 80 ever sees rock crawler duty.
Incidently, I have miminal interest in this happening either way, I will in no way benefit financially and it will be years before our 80 ever sees rock crawler duty.
Adding a crawler box seems like the best (excluding cost) option. low range gears are by far a cheaper route.
I have a 82 pickup with dual transfer cases and it is awesome. For the type of wheeling I do I need the factory low range in most trail riding conditions and the double low for the hardcore spots, even with 5.29 gears on 35's
ALSO, NOT TRYING TO CHANGE FOCUS OF THE THREAD BUT WHAT IS MARLIN'S OPINION ON THE 80 SERIES T/C GEARS VS CRAWLER BOX ISSUE??
I have a 82 pickup with dual transfer cases and it is awesome. For the type of wheeling I do I need the factory low range in most trail riding conditions and the double low for the hardcore spots, even with 5.29 gears on 35's
ALSO, NOT TRYING TO CHANGE FOCUS OF THE THREAD BUT WHAT IS MARLIN'S OPINION ON THE 80 SERIES T/C GEARS VS CRAWLER BOX ISSUE??
kirk said:
Marlin, has been thinking and from what he said at Rubithon starting to piece together a crawl box for the 80.....For me personally a crawl box would be AWESOME, especially considering the fact that having a big setup is nice but being able to use it safely and minimize breakage is another thing. The biggest dilema for me is the $$$$, otherwise I would be 10000% committed to it in terms of immediate purchase or even purchase before an end product has even been reached.
As far as the cutting issue, well who wouldn't want 1+ more gear shift levers in the cab? so long that the install is clean and water tight.
Sam
PKP80 said:
yep, i'm sure the girlfriend would agree.
I would also like to see a reduction gear for high range, instead of re-gearing the diffs.
cruiserdan said:
I am not interested so much in turning mine into a rockcrawler, however after having both a 4:1 kit in a manual tranny jeep and a crawler box in a manual 4runner, I would have to agree with CDan and others. I had a friend that put a Klune-V in front of his stock t-case in his Automatic Cherokee. The gearing was awesome and he didn't have any problems with the set up, he only used "stupid low" to show off. He ended up pulling it out, selling and putting a 4.3 low Atlas in and was much happier. I haven't rockcrawled the 80, but I would think the Samuari way of low range would be the cat's meow. Lower the high range, so you can keep the stock axle gears and put a 4 or so low range in the case, or manufacture a new one, and I think you would be set.
Jack
or u could scrap the 6 and do a Tundra V8 swap with a Land Rover LT230 transfer case it has an optional 4 to 1 reduction gear set. i have the adapter to put those together and i may see if i can mate an LT230 to a cruiser tranny, openeing up the gear choices as well as selectable 4wd
Waggoner5
SILVER Star
If you are going to do that much work and spend that much $, use the LS1/4L60E/Orion. That will get you low gears, durability and power. But this is expensive and thats not the key here. Maybe a thin adapter to allow use of the Orion is the way to go. $2k with low gears sounds like the ticket.
Putting a crawler box in front of the 80 tcase is going to create the same issues as Marks Crawl box. You still will have tank issue and floorboard issues. Marks box is not for everyone, but it is well built and works perfect. Its air shifted also, so there is not a 3rd shifter to deal with.
Adding a Marks box will give a stock 80 a crawl ratio close to 80:1
Changing to an Orion will net around 40:1
But....
I have asked this question to the 80 guys many times. What are you planning to do with this 6k lb truck? It will not be a serious rock crawler with even 100:1. I have followed Cdan, Mark from Metal Tech, NorCalDoug and many more, through serious obsticles and yet to see their well preped 80s not make it because of gearing or traction. 315s, 4.88s, and lockers will get you where ever you have the guts to go, and get you home without incedent. Now don't get me wrong. If there WAS a box available, and did not require any serious mods, it would definately sell. Hell, I would buy one just to be able to go slower and more controlled over the trails I would run.
Now...
If you want to get serious with the 80, lose 2k lbs, chop 1 foot off the front and 2 feet of the rear, gear the crap out of it and run as big a tire as a sawzall will allow.
My humble .02.
G
Putting a crawler box in front of the 80 tcase is going to create the same issues as Marks Crawl box. You still will have tank issue and floorboard issues. Marks box is not for everyone, but it is well built and works perfect. Its air shifted also, so there is not a 3rd shifter to deal with.
Adding a Marks box will give a stock 80 a crawl ratio close to 80:1
Changing to an Orion will net around 40:1
But....
I have asked this question to the 80 guys many times. What are you planning to do with this 6k lb truck? It will not be a serious rock crawler with even 100:1. I have followed Cdan, Mark from Metal Tech, NorCalDoug and many more, through serious obsticles and yet to see their well preped 80s not make it because of gearing or traction. 315s, 4.88s, and lockers will get you where ever you have the guts to go, and get you home without incedent. Now don't get me wrong. If there WAS a box available, and did not require any serious mods, it would definately sell. Hell, I would buy one just to be able to go slower and more controlled over the trails I would run.
Now...
If you want to get serious with the 80, lose 2k lbs, chop 1 foot off the front and 2 feet of the rear, gear the crap out of it and run as big a tire as a sawzall will allow.
My humble .02.
G
MaddBaggins
Remember the KnightRider!
I don't know about a crawler box, but lower gears in the t-case would interest me. I'm with Nay.
I've already got 4.88's and ARB front locker on the way and when those are intalled then on to 315's. I'll see where that takes me.
I've already got 4.88's and ARB front locker on the way and when those are intalled then on to 315's. I'll see where that takes me.
I was just commenting to some of the locals the other day how the ONLY thing I really miss on my 80 is the gnarly low gearing of my old 4Runner.
Now, my 220:1 is not necessary for the 80, but I certainly would like some lower gears for decenting and climbing hills. It's not even a "rockcrawling" thing, it's just nice to be in control with them.
Personally, I LOVED my dual Marlins in the 4Runner. BUT, of course there were a few mods you had to do to complete it (lengthen, shorten driveshatfs). This is something I really would rather NOT wish to do with the 80. IMO, the 80 is so nice the way it is, the less to tweak the better.
So, in summary, I would absolulety buy replacement gears for the t-case if they came available. I have suggested it to Marlin a few times already.
Someone NEEDS to get them going. 80's are getting extremely popular and I certainly feel aside from a Tacoma, a lot of people are graduating to 80's from the old trucks and 4runners.
JBL
Now, my 220:1 is not necessary for the 80, but I certainly would like some lower gears for decenting and climbing hills. It's not even a "rockcrawling" thing, it's just nice to be in control with them.
Personally, I LOVED my dual Marlins in the 4Runner. BUT, of course there were a few mods you had to do to complete it (lengthen, shorten driveshatfs). This is something I really would rather NOT wish to do with the 80. IMO, the 80 is so nice the way it is, the less to tweak the better.
So, in summary, I would absolulety buy replacement gears for the t-case if they came available. I have suggested it to Marlin a few times already.
Someone NEEDS to get them going. 80's are getting extremely popular and I certainly feel aside from a Tacoma, a lot of people are graduating to 80's from the old trucks and 4runners.
JBL
