cracked case - and Toybox and Orion Question

[avgas]

This question (below) is mainly for Poser but if anyone else has any thoughts or oberservations please chime in.

I cracked my first 3 speed case this weekend in the sand dunes in oregon this weekend, not really setting it up for dunes but I just had to take it anyway cracked the case after about twenty minutes after my eyes didnt see a four foot drop with the sand being the way it is there. Lucked out and found another three speed case literally a couple miles down the highway from the campground, threw it in and ran it the rest of the weekend with no problems. part of the no problems could have been that I was on my dirt bike most of the rest of the weekend and let the girls use the cruiser to play with.

So I'm going to go to orion and I was also thinking of doing a toybox and an orion. I saw one thread where poser mentioned he had to fiddle with one he had done (toybox and orion). how extensive was the fiddling? How happy was(is) your customer with the end result? Durability?

I'm running a mild SBC with 465 and AA adapter, I'm thinking the toybox would replace the long AA adapter and have a similar drivetrain length to what I have now. Anybody know the length of the toybox? dimensions aren't listed on their site.

I really like the idea of retaining a "normal" low with just the toybox super low with just the orion and supercrazy low with the toybox and the orion.

jake

 

[D'Animal]

The Orion is a cast Iron version of what you broke. You can get them in a 3:1 and a 4:1 gearing. They will bolt in place of your exsisting case.





(Poser will tell you to bolt an Atlas in your rig and be done with it.)

 

[MD11Fr8Dog]

I'm running a mild SBC with 465 and AA adapter, I'm thinking the toybox would replace the long AA adapter and have a similar drivetrain length to what I have now. Anybody know the length of the toybox? dimensions aren't listed on their site.

6" plus 5/8" for the adapter plate = 6 5/8"

 

[Poser]

So I'm going to go to orion and I was also thinking of doing a toybox and an orion. I saw one thread where poser mentioned he had to fiddle with one he had done (toybox and orion). how extensive was the fiddling? How happy was(is) your customer with the end result? Durability?

The ‘fiddling’ involved removing some material from the top of the Orion housing to permit the Toybox shift rail to fit as the outside dimensions of the Orion are a little larger, top to bottom, compared to a stock aluminum one-piece Land Cruiser transfer case housing.

This 2.28 Toybox is installed behind a 2F and a SM465. The differentials have 5.29 ring and pinions which when using the 4:1 low of the Orion, first gear in the transmission, and the low range of the Toybox gives you a 313:1. Ridiculow.



I have a 420, 4.3 Atlas and 4.88 ring and pinions and have a 147:1 low range, and have found a few places to use it, but typically, it is lower than I need with my Red truck and the 42 inch Swampers.


The whole hitch in the deal is that allegedly Marlin did not have plans to make any more Toybox any time soon.


If I were you, I would install a 3:1 or 4:1 Orion and call it a day. You have a V8. It can rev a lot more than a Land Cruiser six and stay together, so you can use third and fourth gears in low and still get ample wheel speed when you want it.

 

[Poser]

(Poser will tell you to bolt an Atlas in your rig and be done with it.)

Not everybody wants, nor do they really need what an Atlas brings to the table in both functionality and headaches/expense with installation.

 

[pbgbottle]

AA has an option to buy the Orion pre-modified to fit the toybox .

 

[Mark W]

I ran an h42 and 4:1 Orion for a while.... really did not like it for use on longer trails with changing conditions. 4th gear low range was to slow to use for any sort of speed on the trail... and 1st gear high range was too high for most obstacles.... So I wound up having to pop back and forth between nigh and low a lot. After a crawl through mud hole or after a deep water crossing I would have to pull back into high range while the other folks just kept on going, shifting their trannies instead ot the T/C.


With the 465/203/orion.... I run most of the time in 2:1 low on faster tails and I can drop the tranny down a gear for the obstacles.


I do not use 1st gear Stupid Low that often.... but enough that I do appreciate having it.


mark...

 

[D'Animal]

But you run 38" - 40" tires, right?

I ran an h42 and 4:1 Orion for a while.... really did not like it for use on longer trails with changing conditions. 4th gear low range was to slow to use for any sort of speed on the trail... and 1st gear high range was too high for most obstacles.... So I wound up having to pop back and forth between nigh and low a lot. After a crawl through mud hole or after a deep water crossing I would have to pull back into high range while the other folks just kept on going, shifting their trannies instead ot the T/C.


With the 465/203/orion.... I run most of the time in 2:1 low on faster tails and I can drop the tranny down a gear for the obstacles.


I do not use 1st gear Stupid Low that often.... but enough that I do appreciate having it.


mark...

 

[avgas]

Thanks for all the great replies.

Thats some pretty extensive "fiddling" Steve, nice work. I don't think I could do that to a $1500+ orion without tears coming out of my eyes.

I think my main concern with just going to the orion is exactly what Mark is describing, the low in the orion would be too low for everything but obstacles. BTW I'm running 35's and 4.10's. What are you running Mark? I think I'm going to stary at 35's but you know how that goes. An atlas would be nice but like steve said I don't really want to deal with all the modifications it brings to the table, centered rear diff, new crossmember, MORE frame modifications.

I could also go to the 465/203/Orion, in most ways a similar setup to the toybox/orion. How do you like it Mark? Any hiccups to take into consideration?

Also is there much of a difference in strength between the 10 and 16 spline orion?

thanks,
jake

 

[BamaBleach]

Thats some pretty extensive "fiddling" Steve, nice work. I don't think I could do that to a $1500+ orion without tears coming out of my eyes.

As pbgbottle said above,

When you buy your Orion from AA you can let them know that you would like the option to run a toybox in front of their case and they'll modify it for you.

But since Marlin doesn't appear to be making any Toyboxes I guess it's a mute point.

 

[crushr]

But since Marlin doesn't appear to be making any Toyboxes I guess it's a mute point.

And a moot point as well...

 

[Poser]

Thats some pretty extensive "fiddling" Steve, nice work. I don't think I could do that to a $1500+ orion without tears coming out of my eyes.

It really is not that big of a deal. You eventually get used to making things work properly, no matter how something is described as a bolt in, no modifications required, deal. At some point in time you will have to work on something that does not fall into the cookie-cutter world of bolt on modifications; that is when you begin to realize the difference between what you know, and what you think you know and how to apply it to the current situation.

The Orion is a bolt on affair in 99-percent of the applications in which it is being used, and for low gearing options, I cannot think of anything that is as cost-effective or provides the bang for the buck and requires no drive shaft modifications.


The Toybox in that picture was originally shipped with an input gear that was not splined properly to fit the output shaft of the 465; it would not allow the Toybox to sit flush against the back of the 465 transmission. It had to be sent back to Marlin and get fixed.

s*** happens.

I think my main concern with just going to the orion is exactly what Mark is describing, the low in the orion would be too low for everything but obstacles. BTW I'm running 35's and 4.10's.

Then install another three-speed transfer case, figure out why your old one split, (install a case saver if you do not already have one) and don’t look back.

I could also go to the 465/203/Orion, in most ways a similar setup to the toybox/orion. Any hiccups to take into consideration?

Finding/paying for the 203 adapter from the 465, getting the 203 low range gearbox section and going through it, and then getting the adapter for the Land Cruiser one-piece transfer case to the 203. While these 465 to 203 adapters are out there, they are far from common. (Rusty 40 series Land Cruisers are common)

Also is there much of a difference in strength between the 10 and 16 spline orion?

The difference between the 10 and 16 spline Orion is the input gear only and that is based on which transmission or adapter you are trying to mate the transfer case to. The parts that you use to assemble the Orion; transfer case main shaft and front output shaft can be whatever you want them to be. The strongest combination of shafts would be those used 01/78 to 07/80, as this would be the fine spline front drive coupler and a fine spline front output shaft where the drive shaft companion flange attaches. When I build these for people, that is the combination they receive, unless otherwise specified.

 

[avgas]

I already replaced the cracked case, although the install wasn't as neat as if I was doing it at home. So I'm gonna want to take it back out at some point. I did have a transfer case saver, I think the cause of the crack was due to he high impact it either knocked my bumpstops out of the way or they weren't long enough in the first place which then caused the rear driveshaft to shove up into the case once the shackles were out as far as they could go.

I definately will order an orion in the next few weeks and if low ends up being too low for me, I'll address that then and probably with the 203 (which I might have one from my old blazer somewhere).

Thanks for the insight steve and everybody else who chipped in

 

[Poser]

Post up some pictures of your broken garbage....

 

[avgas]

Here you are, don't judge me because it's beautiful, it's a work in progress

 

[Poser]

That is fantastic!

 

[Mark W]

I think my main concern with just going to the orion is exactly what Mark is describing, the low in the orion would be too low for everything but obstacles. BTW I'm running 35's and 4.10's. What are you running Mark? I think I'm going to stary at 35's but you know how that goes.

I could also go to the 465/203/Orion, in most ways a similar setup to the toybox/orion. How do you like it Mark? Any hiccups to take into consideration?

I am running 40 inch boggers... (39.5x18) and 5.29 gearing in this rig.

Steve hit the "hiccups" pretty well... You will have to fab up your shifters, but it is not rocket science... you will want to move your drivetrain as far forward as you can to keep the rear DS an acceptable length. I tipped the rear pinion up and used a DC driveshaft in the rear.

The Factory torque tube/cross member will have to be cut out.

If you use the aftermarket V* conversion rear crossmember... the one that bolts to the back of the T/C... pay attention and make sure that the ribbing of the Orion does not keep it from seating flush.
I assume advance has caught this by now but it only makes sense to check yourself.

I am not found of the shifting or the gear spacing of the 465, but it works well on the trail.

Rhe 465/203/Orion is a bulletproof setup.... but the trade off for the stoutness is a little more noise and a bit of clunkiness. But then this is not the setup for a daily drive for the wife anyway.


Over the next winter I will be replacing the 465 with an nV4500 and the 350 in front of it all with a TBI 454. At that point I think I will have reached the end evolution of this rig... only details left at that point.


Mark...

 

[Mark W]

That is fantastic!

Looks like a classic torque/stress break to me.


Mark...

 

[too tall]

What about a 465 rockbox to an orion ? Does AA still make them ?

 

[Poser]

What about a 465 rockbox to an orion ? Does AA still make them ?

No they do not.