Cheap 'Turbo' power???

[landtank]

I've been reading this thread and was wondering about this electric idea.

It would seem that placing a device between the MAF and throttle body to help the engine breath might be beneficial. Nothing that actually overcomes the vacuum and creates a boost situation but maybe brings it from a vacuum state to atmosphere.

I'm thinking that it wouldn't require alot of power as the engine would be helping the device to acheive this, I just don't know how much of a benefit this would yield.

 

[e9999]

better yet, rig a cage with a couple of squirrels and you're half way to getting a -Mo powa- FJ....

 

[Romer]

OK guys, this is a reasonable technical discussion. Lets keep the chat, passenger power and squirrel talk down. I have read through the stuff and it is worthy of discussion, not like those tin vortec things you put in the intake. Not saying its right or will provide the benefit claimed, but it is worthy of discussion.

I am enjoying the technical discussion of this and th other one he started about the intake.

 

[RavenTai]

It takes a lot of energy to bump the pressure of an intake manifold of a running engine, I guess you could do this with electricity, basicaly the alternator and elevtric motor replacing the belt on a supercharger, but to get any real boost you are goign to need a real compressor a big motor and a big alternator,

anybody got any formulas to figure what it would take in HP to pump 500 CFM of air at 5 PSI? it takes my suposedly 5HP compressor to make suposedly 14 CFM at 120 PSI, talking about a lot more volume here but at lower pressure so maybe rougly comparable.

for a wild ass guess to start playing with numbers lets assume a real supercharger needs to be drven with 5HP, and also asuming %100 effeciency of the motor:

746 watts per horse x5 is 3,730 watts total, at 14 volts is 266 amps DC,

a motor that handles 266 amps continously is huge much bigger than the one on the compressor (disadvantage of low voltage) , the alternator to drive it would also be huge, might as well just use a belt.

this gives an idea of what a plastic bilge fan with silver spray paint and a bling airfilter stuck to it is capable of as far as boost.

 

[landtank]

I wasn't talking about a boost application, more of a driven ram air effect to releive the power loss of the vacuums effect of dragging down the engine.

 

[Rich]

It takes a lot of energy to bump the pressure of an intake manifold of a running engine...
...anybody got any formulas to figure what it would take in HP to pump 500 CFM of air at 5 PSI?...

The TRD cruiser supercharger requires around 25 hp to deliver 500 CFM at 5 PSI.

 

[LandCrusher'70]

I don’t know the specs on this setup, but it looks like this system might provide quite a bit of boost. Might be a viable option for some.
Boost

Seriously though, electric motors have tons of torque and would "spool up" almost instantly, but I don’t really see the benefit of having a few seconds of boost unless you’re driving a racecar. Plus, once you use it, you gotta wait for it to "recharge". Over time, what does that do to the life of the battery(ies)? Your "standard" supercharger or turbo seems to make more sense IMO, it’s power on hand (foot) all the time without the added weight of heavy electric motors and additional batteries.

If someone is looking for a quick shot of boost, as Rusty P. suggested, why not go nitrous?

 

[e9999]

a 110 or 220 25 HP motor is huge. would be hard to fit under the hood. let alone a 12V...

 

[cruiserdan]

The TRD cruiser supercharger requires around 25 hp to deliver 500 CFM at 5 PSI.

I had the inpression it was more like 30 hp. No matter, that is a chunk of effort. Hence the advantage of a turbocharger which does not consume horsepower from the crank to operate.

 

[semlin]

the prius hybrid electric motor only puts out 67hp so you can see the scale of what you would need to do to make an electric blower.

 

[Tapage]

the prius hybrid electric motor only puts out 67hp so you can see the scale of what you would need to do to make an electric blower.

this is a really good example and comparision to get a realistic idea what kind of power we are talking ..

 

[phxtlc]

uhh 10% of 155 is 15.5...

a 10% power increase would be pretty impressive from any single aftermarket item short of forced induction...

I don't know how some Ebay sellers live with themselves.

Fruedian slip from my LC only seeming to have 15 hp!

 

[Rich]

I had the inpression it was more like 30 hp. No matter, that is a chunk of effort. Hence the advantage of a turbocharger which does not consume horsepower from the crank to operate.

That's certainly in the ballpark. Eaton figures 30 HP bumps you up to 540 CFM at 5 PSI.

 

[Dusty]

another cool article
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3165/is_2002_Oct_1/ai_92698660

 

[RavenTai]

some interesting snipits form that article

In the VTES system, the compressor is powered by a brushless electric motor that turns an aluminum alloy compressor at 50,000 rpm.............

The motor requires 2kW of electric power in operation, so Visteon needs to manage the vehicle's entire electric network in order to stay within the limits of a 12/14-volt system.

Among other things, engineers packaged the battery next to the motor to reduce losses in the wiring and regulate output of the intelligent alternator. Boost pressure is 5.1 to 5.8 psi (0.35 to 0.4 bar), depending on the application.

To demonstrate the system, Visteon installed VTES in a naturally aspirated 1.2L Fiat Auto SpA engine and a 1.9L Renault SA turbodiesel. In the diesel, the airflow from the VTES is directed through the turbocharger, boosting the intake pressure faster than the turbo alone.


Potential benefits are greatest in small- displacement engines. Brown says applications are impractical on engines larger than a 3L turbodiesel or a 2.3L naturally aspirated engine, because larger engines require more air than a 12-volt supercharger can deliver.

In a 1.9L diesel, torque is increased about 10% for engine speeds from 1,000 to 2,500 rpm, but there is some benefit even at top speed.

More dramatic results are possible with small gasoline engines. A 1.2L engine with the VTES system performs nearly as well as a 1.8L without VTES, yet fuel economy is 27% better.

It is interesting what they are doing, taking a smaller more effeciant engine and hopping it up with an on demand supercharger so that on acceleration it has more power but during cruise it is effecient due to its small displacement,

but it takes 2,000 watts just to keep a tiny 1.2L enigne fed, that is liek turnign you starter for long lengths of time, we know what happens to a 80 series electrical system when you lete the contacts stick

when they use a 42 volt source the conductor size and therefore the motor size will drop, allowing them to do more with this electric supercharger in a hybrid enviornment.

none of this yet looks useful for a Land Cruiser.

I have been seeing an adds for the new chevy impalla SS, I have not looked into it but I would not be suprised if they are trying to rehash that POS 4/8 cylinder thing from the sevendies caddies,

for more effeciency I would prefer to have on demand boost on a samll engine instead of draging arround 4 exra cylinders all the time, those 4 pistons are still moving and robbing power,

 

[Dusty]

I agree. How about a 4.3L turbocharged Vortec. Thats my type of "hybrid"