Changing out the AHC suspension fluid? (1 Viewer)

[Texasoil]

Accmulators OEM vs B&B Suspension modelsu

Sorry about the lengthy delay--just saw ur post.

There are of course several contributing causes for diaphragm failure in the OEM accumulators of the adjustable height suspension on both LX-470 and LC-100 made by Toyota MC Corp

The OEM design is very good, but not perfect. It holds up well,and the overall system has excellent reliability. However, service techs seem to be unaware it exists, much less how to service it or diagnose problems--and it can be frightenly costly for them to 'experiment' on your 'nickel.'

PLEASE call me (832-651-7576) email kebowers47@gmail.com if you are having any ACH problems B4 going to the Dealer.

OEM accumulator diaphragms fail from stress concentration right at the edge where they are pinched agasinst the vessel wall. This takes place when they get 'low' near the natural end of life. By this time, th ematerial has hardened significantly and is quite stiff. This failure mode is why I ceased trying to recharge them (and save you guys money$$$).

ALL accumulators lose the gas precharge in time. Fact of life. The higher the operating temperatures and pressure, the faster the gas charge will permeate the diaphragm into the oil side.

How to make accumulators last longer?

My accumulators are not available elsewhere--they were specifically designed for the LX-470/LC-100 application. They incorporate thicker diaphragms of a more expensive material which is better at retaining the gas charge, AND they are charged with a much more costly gas that has MUCH lower permeation rates. Admittedly, the per accumulator increase in gas cost is small, but it does cost 4 times as much as 'the other guys' and is not available except at specialty gas suppliers.

Nothing made by man is permanent, but I have attempted to improve over the OEM design as much as possible. It took over a year of design and fabrication trials and testing to get where I am today. I am continually working to improve the designs and products. One of the biggest problems is our Homeland Security Agency and its Department of Transportation. They keep changing the shipping regulations without warning- and I can no longer use Air Freight to ship even these small accumulators. They were 'exempted' from hazardous cargo labeling and manifesting requirements, but new regs issued without public comment did not include that exemption. HazMat labeling means FedEx, UPS and USPS will not handle them for 'air overnite' and few people are willing to pay $500 or more in regular air freight shipping costs.

I hope I answered your questions completely.
Keith E Bowers
activesuspensionsystems.com

 

[hoser]

Thanks Keith. One more question, can your accumulators be recharged to a higher pressure to accomodate heavier rigs? Or is that not a good idea?

 

[Tinkerer]

Texasoil (Keith):

These look interesting. More questions?

1. Can we get more photos, maybe other additional technical information not available on the website?

2. Website indicates that "costly NOBEL inert gas" is used, rather than "cheap nitrogen" as with other accumulators. Could you please provide more info about the "NOBEL inert gas"? (Or is it proprietary?)

3. Any info available regarding real-world service life? (From the first LX470 vehicles that these were installed on...to today...)

4. Any IH8MUD'ers have experience using these?

TIA.

(PS - I am NOT a competitor trying to reverse-engineer your product...just a graying Tinkerer expecting to replace my LX470 accumulators within the next 5 to 10 years.)

 

[Texasoil]

My accumulators CAN and ARE charged to somewhat higher than OEM pressures to extend the service life. The LX-470 (and LC-100) have 'load limiting' pressure relief valve that lets the oil return to the reservoir is the 'factory determined maximum load' is exceeded.

One would have to modify that pressure relief valve(s) in order to carry greater loads. I can set the accumulators to be 'balanced' at whatever load one desires (within limits of course). I take no responsibility for one overloading the vehicle.

 

[Texasoil]

1) Regarding additional photos, I prefer not to disclose any more as these ARE custom designed and proprietary, trade secret. If you have a specific question and wish to discuss things phone me and I can be much more descriptive. For instance, the final diaphragm material&thickness IS NOT posted, but is Trade Secret.

The inert gas selection IS proprietary-Trade Secret. I consulted with one of the best Chemical Engineers alive today, who worked for Goodyear some years ago, and has tremendous knowledge collected over his 40+years of practice. We looked at all the potential gases, selected a few promising candidates, and evaluated all the attributes--looking for maximum life. COST was not included in this selection. As it happens, it adds a couple of bucks to my cost/accumulator. The BIG cost is TIME acquiring the stuff at high pressure(>2200psig) in sufficient quantity without investing a fortune in pressure cylinders or cryogenic storage. I have to drive over 60 miles to a specialty gas supplier (remember, Houston does have EVERYTHING used in industry anywhere) and bring it home. Tank fittings are also special and not cheap. I already had the high pressure (4000#) regulators and charging hose (7000# proof tested) stuff

These NEW accumulators have been in service a little less than a year now. The recharged units have variable life--some are over 2 years out and going. Some went hard in 6-12 months and were replaced with these new ones (with FULL credit for the original recharging fees). I feel confident enough to offer a standard warranty-100% one year, 2/3 off during year 2, 1/3 off during year 3. I Expect 5+year life based on OEM performance. Continual 'heavy load, rough road, hot climate' service life is shorter than 'city streets at 70F. I expect these units to be rechargeable with good 2nd fill service life if not driven to flat condition. Driving on Dead flat condition almost always will 'pressure cut' the diaphragm in any automotive accumulator. It is not economically feasible to produce a perfectly smooth and and unbroken top inner surface and the small discontinuities will act as knife edges. Most of the shell (where the diaphragm contacts it as flexes) is smooth and carefully shaped.

I am not trying to be evasive, but am trying to protect trade secrets.

OEM replacement part warranty is what-90days?

 

[hoser]

Warranty on OEM Toyota/Lexus parts is 1 year whether installed by authorized mechanic or yourself.

 

[Tinkerer]

1)
I am not trying to be evasive, but am trying to protect trade secrets.

Cool looking product. Kudos for creating this. No offense, BUT:

None of my business, but maybe patents are your best option? You understand, of course, that customers have concerns about performance and longevity, and your product may be fantastic - or maybe not. It would help me greatly in deciding whether to shell out $1400 +, if I had more than a picture of a small section of the diaphram/housing , "proprietary inert gas", and "a chemical engineer who used to work for Goodyear helped select the gas" to consider.

As good as a couple of people with industrical chemical etc. experience may be, they will not think of nor test for everything that Toyota will. The "NOBEL" (misspelled?) inert gas, for example - how will it interact with the AHC fluid, when it migrates across the membrane in service? Nitrogen is well-known and certainly inert, in this situation. Etc, etc.

A purported ~1 year real-world service record is not enough by itself, nor is a 3 year prorated warranty, given that your products are not tested as exhaustively as Toyota's, nor backed by the gargantuan Toyota itself, which (no offense) is more assured of being in business in 3 years than a sole proprietorship / small business.

Toyota may only warrant replacement parts for 1 year, or 3 years, or whatever - BUT they are likely to be the same Accumulators that have been working fine for me for 8+ years and still going strong. THAT is worth much more to me than the actual warranty itself. (I would like to NOT have to use a warranty.)

If any additional info is available, including real-world testimonials from unbiased users, that would be most appreciated.

 

[Texasoil]

Tinkerer-- Perhaps YOU 'the expert' on Toyota's AHC system? It seems the Dealer techs are not based on the experiences of some of my customers (admittedly not a comprehensive survey.) If so, please share your knowledge with us--me a small supplier of highly specialized hydraulic components-others are owners of the vehicles which require these parts. Your service life experience may well be the longest so far. You or the successor owner ARE going to have to replace the accumulators.

Your suggestion on 'real world' experience is valid.
I WILL post (with permission granted) on my website unsolicited comments from some customers.


I realize it is highly unlikely you will ever be a customer of B and B Suspension -as you make that quite clear. However, I did not expect such a negative and hostile slam disguised as legitimate questions. Forum Members deserve better.

 

[Tinkerer]

Tinkerer-- Perhaps YOU 'the expert' on Toyota's AHC system? It seems the Dealer techs are not based on the experiences of some of my customers (admittedly not a comprehensive survey.) If so, please share your knowledge with us--me a small supplier of highly specialized hydraulic components-others are owners of the vehicles which require these parts. Your service life experience may well be the longest so far. You or the successor owner ARE going to have to replace the accumulators.

Your suggestion on 'real world' experience is valid.
I WILL post (with permission granted) on my website unsolicited comments from some customers.


I realize it is highly unlikely you will ever be a customer of B and B Suspension -as you make that quite clear. However, I did not expect such a negative and hostile slam disguised as legitimate questions. Forum Members deserve better.

My sincerest apologies. I do not intend offense, I only seek information. As noted, kudos for developing this product - it appears to be a cool product, and possibly an improvement over OEM. You've done far more than I have here. (And NO, I'm not an expert on the AHC system.)

In fact, I might be interested in purchasing these B&B products when mine fail. But I need more information to support the decision - because unlike some, I don't have $1400 to spend on something that fails prematurely and messes up other stuff too, so I really need more info than you have provided so far. Sorry if you took offense at that.

Cheers.

 

[Texasoil]

Noted, accepted, I understand the dilemma. Even though Washington-crats say 'economy is good, unemployment is low' somehow most folks do not have more purchasing power than 5 years ago. Same here. Cars we own are 13,13,15 yrs old and I maintain them. New stuff with comparable performance/comfort is way too 'spensive' for such vanity.

I WILL get customer comments posted. Any specific questions will be answered so far as practical.

Toyota OEM units are the best OEM units out there, just outrageously costly. Comparable service units on MBZ are available aftermarket from OEM supplier for $150 each. Toyota chose to use a special connection and non-standard physical shape and size, which is not available from any but their OEM supplier. THis is why they can keep price up.

I had to figure a better way--and I did. Questions welcome

 

[hkeller]

I'm not sure how many of you have spoken with Keith, but he is a stand-up guy. I had to have all four of my accumulators go flat on our 2000 LX 470. I was going to send them to Keith, but Lexus stepped in at the last minute and agreed to pay for the part out of warranty.

Keith is an engineer and is exceptionally knowlegdable about these types of systems. Toyota is not the only user. Mercedes, Citrieon (sp?), etc., have used these for year and Keith nows his stuff. If, when, my accumulators go again, I'll buy from Keith.

The damn thing is is Toyota's pricing. Rolls Royce uses a similar system, but there replacement accumulators are only like $80 a piece. Go figure.

 

[tom.]

How to remove all of the old fluid from reservoir?

 

[rwheelz]

large plastic syringe and a piece of tubing!

 

[Joe422]

Are there any real world experiences w/ Keith Bower's accumulators?

I am installing them in my LX470, and will post results very soon...

I'd like to know of any others who have had experience w/ Texasoil accumulators.


Stay Tuned~

 

[ejike]

Bump.... Classic thread started by Hoser

This looks like one of the better AHC threads...
Please lets build this out some more, clean it up and sticky it ....all in favour say.... Aye!


1)how to start from scratch and adjust all the heights appropriately after major height screw up not just minor adjust (linkage and arm adjust with calibrationss on OBDI or voltmeter, height specs, where to start,.....bleed first?)
2) Torsion bar adjustment for AHC (Check pressure...then what do you tighten)
3)Upper front suspension bar adjust?(where/what)......not the linkage



LEXUSBEN....you might have better insight on all this (PM'd)
uHu....I've seen your traffic chime in
Constructive entries by all appreciated

 

[Texasoil]

I will seek permission from some customers and post contact information. Performance is generally very good. I provide excellent warranty coverage and am generous to a fault. I have learned just recently this winter that the last production run had Nitrile formulation in front accumulators only that is too stiff when temperatures drop to below 10F. 2 failures have occurred from diaphragm cracking of year -18 month old units (free replacements sent no charge)

Current batch has been tested to -10F and work fine. Development testing underway for -30F +240F capability now. Available by fall.

 

[snowbunny]

Need help asap. 99 LX470 air suspension!!!

Hi, I need serious advice about my LX 470. It bounces all the time now and I need to get new shocks. I was told only a Lexus dealership has the parts because it has an air suspension with the height control. And they are a fortune. Does anyone know of someone who can help me without costing a fortune and the other thing is, I read the threads and was wondering should I change the ACH fluid? will that make a difference?

 

[uHu]

Hi, I need serious advice about my LX 470. It bounces all the time now and I need to get new shocks. I was told only a Lexus dealership has the parts because it has an air suspension with the height control. And they are a fortune. Does anyone know of someone who can help me without costing a fortune and the other thing is, I read the threads and was wondering should I change the ACH fluid? will that make a difference?

What's the status on this one? (Been offline for 3 weeks)
Would be good to know a bit more about your cruiser, like year and miles. Sounds like it could be the spheres though. (gas springs)

 

[STEVEN XU]

What color does the AHC suspension fluid look like

One Lexus deal says I use the wrong suspension fluid because the fluid bled out from the system is in pink color. The new fluid they using is yellowish. But the original fluid I added in the system was bought from other lexus dealer, it is in pink color. Both suspension fluid are in the same part number #08886-01805. Which one is correct or both are correct. Any help should be appreciated.

 

[parnoren]

One Lexus deal says I use the wrong suspension fluid because the fluid bled out from the system is in pink color. The new fluid they using is yellowish. But the original fluid I added in the system was bought from other lexus dealer, it is in pink color. Both suspension fluid are in the same part number #08886-01805. Which one is correct or both are correct. Any help should be appreciated.

I bought 3 cans of fluid from one of the local dealers here in Vancouver and received two colors as well. They said they were both exactly the same, except that from now on the color had changed. Are you in Vancouver?