Buying Land; Looking for tips (1 Viewer)

[Phares]

I've started actively shopping for land and I was curious if anyone here has done this, what were some lessons learned, and if there was anything they wish they had known. Below are my requirements:

< 3 Hours travel from CLT
<200 miles from CLT
> 45 Acres
< $150,000
>50% wooded

Must have running water source (creek, stream, etc)
Must have soil that isn't complete garbage

If I end up getting something then I'll need to sell the land cruiser to buy a bigger truck (F250 etc). So if anyone is in the market tell them to check out my signature. Hopefully everyone is staying healthy and doing alright.

 

[cruiser4life]

We own about 150 acres in the mountains that checks all of your boxes.

Depending on where you are looking there are lots of options for sale right now but like most things during this pandemic, prices have increased in most areas over the last 12 months.

There are so many variables involved with a land purchase I could write a book but don't want to clutter up your thread.

PM me if you want to discuss anything at all, happy to assist if I can with what I've learned over the years.

 

[roadstr6]

Words of advice: Wood is good! Buy land with a stand of mature or semi-mature loblolly pines. My last timber sale yielded around $1,300 / acre. I will cut it again in 25 years (or my kids will). Actually it gets thinned every 10 years or so, so it's a somewhat regular income stream. I lease the land to a local hunt club. They hunt deer from October to January and their lease more than pays for my property taxes. Montgomery County (Uwharrie area) is a big timber area.

 

[tstepp920]

Zoning: can you do what you want where you want?
Wells: are you prepared to possibly spend 10s of thousands to get clean water?
Septic tank approvals: spending 20k on a place to hold your morning dump can be hard to get past.
Those 3 Have caused more heartburn for purchasers than anything else I know.
Pay attention to what is happening around you. See if the county planning office will share their master zoning plan. Agricultural land can quickly become Industrial and you can’t do a damned thing about the land fill they are putting in.

 

[MBest75]

Just my $0.02 as a recent first time buyer...current market is tough for tracts in the mountains. It's way worse for finished homes plus acreage. Having recently purchased up in Western Watauga your price range for 45 acres plus stream/river is on the low end on a per acre basis. An agent can pull you all the comps you want that show 3300 an acre works, but they're still going for much more with river/stream access. Remove that and deals abound. Just as an example, there's a spot on Zillow in Sugar Grove that's 60 acres, has a spring but listed at $299k. I've looked at it, it ticks your boxes, but price is nearly 2x your budget. To find bargains what I ended up doing was looking at previous listings that were pulled off the market, ideally anything that looked trashed/logged etc and work backwards. Watauga septic permitting is notoriously difficult if that factors into your decision, so Tstepp makes an excellent point if you're looking to build and you're in Watauga be 100% sure you get septic permitting done prior to close of sale. Wells/zoning are pretty simple out there, but the septic took over 2 months and about 15 perc holes in various spots to get approval.

Ultimately my purchase was logged, left virtually trashed (unburned brush piles, stumps, slash piles all over), some standing timber in spots (<20% but filling in), but the tradeoff was excellent long range from a summit (no timber in the way) for a home site, several hundred yards of access on the Watauga River and no need to clear site lines for Bear/Deer/Turkey season. I enjoy the tractor and clearing work. Finding it took nearly 10 months of searching. I will say that now that I spend most of my time up there and talk to families nearby, seeing these prices there are lots of family trusts are sitting on acreage that are evaluating sales, the kids don't seem to want the acreage or have a use for it, so I believe more will hit the market in the next year or so, but for now it's a pretty tight market.

 

[Phares]

Just my $0.02 as a recent first time buyer...current market is tough for tracts in the mountains. It's way worse for finished homes plus acreage. Having recently purchased up in Western Watauga your price range for 45 acres plus stream/river is on the low end on a per acre basis. An agent can pull you all the comps you want that show 3300 an acre works, but they're still going for much more with river/stream access. Remove that and deals abound. Just as an example, there's a spot on Zillow in Sugar Grove that's 60 acres, has a spring but listed at $299k. I've looked at it, it ticks your boxes, but price is nearly 2x your budget. To find bargains what I ended up doing was looking at previous listings that were pulled off the market, ideally anything that looked trashed/logged etc and work backwards. Watauga septic permitting is notoriously difficult if that factors into your decision, so Tstepp makes an excellent point if you're looking to build and you're in Watauga be 100% sure you get septic permitting done prior to close of sale. Wells/zoning are pretty simple out there, but the septic took over 2 months and about 15 perc holes in various spots to get approval.

Ultimately my purchase was logged, left virtually trashed (unburned brush piles, stumps, slash piles all over), some standing timber in spots (<20% but filling in), but the tradeoff was excellent long range from a summit (no timber in the way) for a home site, several hundred yards of access on the Watauga River and no need to clear site lines for Bear/Deer/Turkey season. I enjoy the tractor and clearing work. Finding it took nearly 10 months of searching. I will say that now that I spend most of my time up there and talk to families nearby, seeing these prices there are lots of family trusts are sitting on acreage that are evaluating sales, the kids don't seem to want the acreage or have a use for it, so I believe more will hit the market in the next year or so, but for now it's a pretty tight market.

Everything you said jives with what I'm seeing. Land is crazy right now and we're not the only people having this conversation. I found a track just over the border in VA that meets all my boxes but it has been logged and like you said, the place is trashed. I spooked up to deer yesterday walking the property. I was thinking a tractor would be the best way to pull the logs up where I could chainsaw them and then split them. What have you used?

 

[cruiser4life]

D5 dozer into piles, burn, grade, till, plant food plots.

We're across the state line. If you're set on the mountains it is a straight, quick shot with 90+% interstate. Used to be hell on Fridays around the lake on 77 but with the toll lanes added (and esp since Covid hit this time last year) it is much better. I can get from my driveway to one of the properties we hunt in 1 hour and 45 minutes with no stops. There is a lot for sale up there right now, some pretty decent deals if you take your time and are patient with your search. Contact a few agents and tell them what you're looking for and you'll have local eyes and ears working for you.

Not sure if part of your objective but the extended family allowances for hunting and fishing without license as a land owner provide greater coverage in VA vs NC.

Another plus for VA, the state will replant recently logged terrain for almost nothing. The loggers pay into a fund that provides the financing. We had ~ 18 acres of white pines replanted after being logged, over 12K trees delivered and labor to plant for less than $1K. And to the point made by @roadstr6, it will be fully mature and ready for harvest in 30-35 years and a source of revenue for our kids if they choose to harvest.

Stick to your requirement of water, that's a deal breaker IMO. Pond, stream, etc. Provides so much recreation for you and your family.

 

[roadstr6]

Everything you said jives with what I'm seeing. Land is crazy right now and we're not the only people having this conversation. I found a track just over the border in VA that meets all my boxes but it has been logged and like you said, the place is trashed. I spooked up to deer yesterday walking the property. I was thinking a tractor would be the best way to pull the logs up where I could chainsaw them and then split them. What have you used?

Dozer and fire. Quickest way. Gone in a weekend.

 

[roadstr6]

NC provides cost share on reforestation of cut timber as well up to 100 acres per owner per year. They'll pay for a large percentage of the seedlings. Property owner has to pay for labor to plant them and any other costs for things like controlled burning, spraying of herbicides, etc.

If you buy land that is currently planted in row crops, and you decide not to farm it, it may qualify for the USDA Conservation Reserve Program. This is a federal program that essentially pays landowners not to plant crops. Trees are okay, just no row crops. The CRP basically pays a 10 year lease on your land at a yearly price of $30-$50 / acre. In return, you do nothing but collect a yearly check. You have the option to renew every 10 years. Buy crop land, put it in CRP. Plant trees and get paid by the government to watch them grow. After 20 or 30 years, don't renew. Cut the trees and replant.

One enterprise that I have been looking into lately is long leaf pines. Pine needles are big business. The trees are never cut. The needles are simply machine-raked and bundled periodically and, from what I've seen, the harvesters pay in cash. I like cash just fine.

Not trying to make this a lesson in tree farming. I have a feeling Phares is just looking for a place to go hang out and enjoy nature. Nothing wrong with that. My perspective is that if planned and executed properly, land ownership can be more than just a place for fun and recreation. It can actually pay good dividends. Between hunt leases, government programs and harvesting and replanting of trees, the land can pay it's own way while you get to enjoy it.

 

[Phares]

All great comments. It would be cool to drive a bull dozer for a weekend. I am definitely going to look into getting it replanted, especially if they'll do it for free. I'm looking at a piece in Cana VA at the moment.

 

[roadstr6]

One last thing. It might be worthwhile to look into financing through the Federal Land Bank. It's a co-op, and exclusively for rural land purchases, financing farm equipment, etc. I'm sure their rates are better than you will find at your local bank.

 

[cruiser4life]

That's interesting. I have had a neighbor tell me that when our white pine seedling get mature enough that there is decent income to be had harvesting the needles without harming the trees. I had forgotten about that, may need to investigate further.

I'm sure white pine needles aren't nearly as desired as long leaf or loblolly so the financial prospects aren't as good but neither of those grow in our area (3K elevation).

Agreed, hijack off, but part of the fun of owning your own land is learning and exploring all of these possibilities. And any revenue you can generate from the land, especially if no environmental impact IMO (I have loggers chomping at the bit to get at our hardwood stands but I am not interested due the to negative impact it would have on our hunting) is nice for offsetting property tax as you mentioned earlier.

 

[MBest75]

Everything you said jives with what I'm seeing. Land is crazy right now and we're not the only people having this conversation. I found a track just over the border in VA that meets all my boxes but it has been logged and like you said, the place is trashed. I spooked up to deer yesterday walking the property. I was thinking a tractor would be the best way to pull the logs up where I could chainsaw them and then split them. What have you used?

It'll loosen up but patience is definitely key. VA is an excellent option and I saw lots of nice options there, we want to be near Boone long term/retirement, so that was what tethered us to Watauga or Wilkes counties. As for tools of the trade Kubota Tractor + Kawasaki Mule DXT are my tools of choice. If you're going to do the work yourself get a grapple on the front of a tractor, makes brush pile assembly much easier. If you don't see a use for it longer term, resale is pretty easy on that implement. I've got a neighbor with a digger who's done some work when I know I'm not going to be able to do it myself, but mostly just me and my son.

As others have said, burning is the only way. You can pay a small fortune to someone to turn it into mulch, what some diesel/keroseane and a lot of safety precautions can do at a smidge of the price. I have burned probably 5 piles and have 10 more to go. Because of my location, wind can be a huge problem so I tend to burn small piles on days after rains with low wind, Since August, blocking out hunting season, I've only had a few such days. If you've got low winds and know how, it can be done much faster.

@roadstr6 I've looked into the replanting options and am having about ~20 acres replanted in this way hopefully in 2021, but more likely 2022 given some road building and other activities I've got. Long term this is being done as a windbreak, erosion control, etc, not as much for income but 20-30 years I'll let my kids sort that part out as the optionality is great. It's a great program, hopefully it works out well.

 

[Phares]

This thread has gone completely off the rails and I love it. I've had no one to talk to about all this stuff. I was looking at Kubotas but know nothing about them as I've always been into John Deere. I didn't even know they made a grappler attachment. I was just going to use a tractor with the blade. Tell me more...

Once I've acquired some land I will definitely check out the replanting options.

 

[roadstr6]

This thread has gone completely off the rails and I love it. I've had no one to talk to about all this stuff. I was looking at Kubotas but know nothing about them as I've always been into John Deere. I didn't even know they made a grappler attachment. I was just going to use a tractor with the blade. Tell me more...

Once I've acquired some land I will definitely check out the replanting options.

I think Stan just bought one for his Massey Ferguson, right, @NCFJ?

 

[MBest75]

This thread has gone completely off the rails and I love it. I've had no one to talk to about all this stuff. I was looking at Kubotas but know nothing about them as I've always been into John Deere. I didn't even know they made a grappler attachment. I was just going to use a tractor with the blade. Tell me more...

Once I've acquired some land I will definitely check out the replanting options.

Tractors are a great rabbit hole to go down, almost as much fun as cruisers... In a nutshell, Orange is less expensive than Green, and if you're not going to make a living with it and put 10,000 hours (although you could), it's a better option. Just my view and I'm sure like Cruisers vs Jeeps others way more informed opinions than mine. Frankly right now, like trying to buy an ATV or Land, there's no inventory on lots, which presents its own challenges. If you go to a tractor dealer now, they'll either A. laugh at you for trying to buy something or B. not return your call for a few weeks/ever b/c they have nothing to sell you. As long as you have a 3rd function plumed and wired for your tractor, adding a grapple is as easy as adding a bucket. You can still get tons of work done with a bucket/forks, but the hours it has saved me has been well worth the extra $$$ to have that added. If you're bored and looking for Youtube Channels, find Ask Tractor Mike and Messick's (a dealer in the midwest), that's hours of great content that I watched to get smarter.

Below are pics of just one if the slash piles I’m talking about. It’s the same pile just above and below. Grapple is mandatory.

 

[mtweller]

Tractors are a great rabbit hole to go down, almost as much fun as cruisers... In a nutshell, Orange is less expensive than Green, and if you're not going to make a living with it and put 10,000 hours (although you could), it's a better option. Just my view and I'm sure like Cruisers vs Jeeps others way more informed opinions than mine. Frankly right now, like trying to buy an ATV or Land, there's no inventory on lots, which presents its own challenges. If you go to a tractor dealer now, they'll either A. laugh at you for trying to buy something or B. not return your call for a few weeks/ever b/c they have nothing to sell you. As long as you have a 3rd function plumed and wired for your tractor, adding a grapple is as easy as adding a bucket. You can still get tons of work done with a bucket/forks, but the hours it has saved me has been well worth the extra $$$ to have that added. If you're bored and looking for Youtube Channels, find Ask Tractor Mike and Messick's (a dealer in the midwest), that's hours of great content that I watched to get smarter.

Below are pics of just one if the slash piles I’m talking about. It’s the same pile just above and below. Grapple is mandatory.
View attachment 2582404

View attachment 2582406

Victims of Emerald Ash Borer?

 

[MBest75]

Victims of Emerald Ash Borer?

I don't think so and my neighbor has 472 acres and we've yet to see any wide spread damage from them on either side. The area was hit by a microburst in 2017, owners at the time decided to let a logging company come in and take the wood and get some income off of that. There are still lots of snapped in half trunks all over the place. Not sure who did the logging work and they're not known for being tidy, even by those standards it was a mess. That said, I won't need firewood or Fence posts for a very long time.

 

[sogafarm]

NC provides cost share on reforestation of cut timber as well up to 100 acres per owner per year. They'll pay for a large percentage of the seedlings. Property owner has to pay for labor to plant them and any other costs for things like controlled burning, spraying of herbicides, etc.

If you buy land that is currently planted in row crops, and you decide not to farm it, it may qualify for the USDA Conservation Reserve Program. This is a federal program that essentially pays landowners not to plant crops. Trees are okay, just no row crops. The CRP basically pays a 10 year lease on your land at a yearly price of $30-$50 / acre. In return, you do nothing but collect a yearly check. You have the option to renew every 10 years. Buy crop land, put it in CRP. Plant trees and get paid by the government to watch them grow. After 20 or 30 years, don't renew. Cut the trees and replant.

One enterprise that I have been looking into lately is long leaf pines. Pine needles are big business. The trees are never cut. The needles are simply machine-raked and bundled periodically and, from what I've seen, the harvesters pay in cash. I like cash just fine.

Not trying to make this a lesson in tree farming. I have a feeling Phares is just looking for a place to go hang out and enjoy nature. Nothing wrong with that. My perspective is that if planned and executed properly, land ownership can be more than just a place for fun and recreation. It can actually pay good dividends. Between hunt leases, government programs and harvesting and replanting of trees, the land can pay it's own way while you get to enjoy it.

We just completed our CRP program with our Long Leaf Pines. Now we contract out the pinestraw harvesting. Long leaf straw is the premium as the needles are 10-18 inches long and make great bedding. I've been doing the prescribed burns myself for 20 years now and I have to say, it's the most fun thing you can do on your own land. You just have to be very careful and know what conditions are safe( i.e. wind, moisture, fire breaks, and putting out canker fires on the trees from the running sap.)
The CRP program pays over $100 per acre per year currently and is very limited, but still available for row crop land conversion to forest. It's a federal program so there are restrictions on harvesting and care techniques. Any climate crazies out there will be happy that forests absorb CO2 and produce Oxygen, so win-win. Feel free to send me a check and I will designate a Carbon Capture Unit or otherwise known as a tree for your personal carbon offset. Contact me for current carbon offset prices.(LOL)
Below is post prescribed burn, young Long Leaf Pine

Below is more recent pic of Long Leaf Pine rows.

 

[NCFJ]

In regard to the grapple, oh yeah! What is the point of owning a tractor with the front end set up right not using a grapple in the woods. Don't get one that is too big on the weight end as it will limit what you can carry. We have a 48 horse 4WD Compact. Great tractor, gets in and out of tight spots on hills. The grapple made keeping up with clearing and maintenance much easier. I transport brush direct to the burn pile.

Get a Root Grapple. It really does clear roots and underbrush as well. Hook up your hydraulics and you are off to the races!