I don't think it would, but do you suppose changing rotors or calipers would affect VSC or ATRAC?
I could see where it might affect EBD.
I could see where it might affect EBD.
Brake Upgrade (1 Viewer)
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All of those systems will compensate for conditions including better brake components. Much of the data is derived from wheel speed differentials. Remember that much of what a bbk gives you is repeatability of optimum performance not some massive improvement in raw stopping power. Of course If one wants to stop better one should think about tires and proper pressures for the conditions.
Sure but if the hydraulic force required to exert a stopping power of X on the left front wheel with the stock caliper is now 0.8 (or 1.2 for that matter) with larger calipers would the timed pulses for VSC control now be less than/greater than what is required? I agree that it's a continuous feedback loop and we're talking several pulses per second. Just trying to think through the logic to make sure this wouldn't solve one problem but induce another.
I read the following after I wrote the above, but it appears that stoptech has the same concern, although it varies by vehicle:
StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades
I'm sure their are nuances to every vehicle, but so far my real world experience doesn't give me pause for a mod like this.
These systems are not measuring hydraulic force for their reactions, but rather looking a speed differentials at each wheel to measure their responses. So to look at your scenario of hydraulic pulse to a given wheel the response characteristics remain the same. For example in my allroad if the brake pedal took 2 inches of travel to lock/induce abs it did not suddenly only take 1 inch when I installed 6 piston Alcons and big rotors. The traction, skid and anti lock systems continued to respond as expected. More to your point these systems have to adapt all the time to changes in friction of worn pads, wet rotors, heat and other conditions. A BBK is simply another condition.
The benefits to a big brake kit are not reduced stopping distances in a panic but simply the ability shed heat therefore providing consistent capabilities over a potentially wider range situations. Typically the improved calipers will give much greater, nuanced feedback to the pedal which translates the possibility of maintaing brake control before any of the fail safe systems come into play.
I'm not addressing you Oregon, however many think a BBK means the truck stops 30 feet shorter from 60mph or something along those lines. That's just not the case. The BBK would provide finer control from the drivers seat and improved stop repeatability.
These systems are not measuring hydraulic force for their reactions, but rather looking a speed differentials at each wheel to measure their responses. So to look at your scenario of hydraulic pulse to a given wheel the response characteristics remain the same. For example in my allroad if the brake pedal took 2 inches of travel to lock/induce abs it did not suddenly only take 1 inch when I installed 6 piston Alcons and big rotors. The traction, skid and anti lock systems continued to respond as expected. More to your point these systems have to adapt all the time to changes in friction of worn pads, wet rotors, heat and other conditions. A BBK is simply another condition.
The benefits to a big brake kit are not reduced stopping distances in a panic but simply the ability shed heat therefore providing consistent capabilities over a potentially wider range situations. Typically the improved calipers will give much greater, nuanced feedback to the pedal which translates the possibility of maintaing brake control before any of the fail safe systems come into play.
I'm not addressing you Oregon, however many think a BBK means the truck stops 30 feet shorter from 60mph or something along those lines. That's just not the case. The BBK would provide finer control from the drivers seat and improved stop repeatability.
pman i havent read thru the whole thread yet, but when i was subscribing to the 4WD Toyota Owners magazine, there was an ad in there that offered slotted and drilled disc brakes for our beloved 100 series.
The price was actually reasonable. $4k is way too much.
cheers
peter
ok. Interesting read.
My rear pads are gone now after 155k kms. My local Brakes Plus franchise quoted me $285 for pads and a disc machining which sounds reasonable.
I'll get a quote from Outback 4WD where i get it serviced and see what their price is.
cheers
peter
My rear pads are gone now after 155k kms. My local Brakes Plus franchise quoted me $285 for pads and a disc machining which sounds reasonable.
I'll get a quote from Outback 4WD where i get it serviced and see what their price is.
cheers
peter
slotted > drilled
Well, I would hope the BBK would reduce the 60-0 stopping distance! The issue I'm dealing with is not being able to develop sufficient force at the caliper to induce pending lock (maximum decel force). A larger rotor with a 6-piston caliper should be able to do just that. While the pressure in the brake lines won't increase, the leverage the brake has on the wheel will. This would be in addition to improved thermal capacity (fade resistance).
Regarding the impact on the systems, StopTech and I agree with you that the systems (VSC/ABS/ATRAC/EBD) don't measure hydraulic force per se. However, the electronics are tuned by Toyota with algorithms based upon the stock setup. The example that StopTech makes is where a BBK could result in increased stopping distance because the ABS system 'overreacts' and releases too much pressure and then subsequently 'hunts' for the correct pressure. It does this because the BBK isn't behaving as it predicted; a 10ms release pulse that would have been sufficient to unlock the wheel before may no longer be the case with a larger rotor. Not a function of hydraulic pressure but of leverage on the wheel. I would assume this could apply to VSC and EBD, probably less so to ATRAC.
Not saying BBK's are evil. Not even saying they're necessarily going to cause a problem. But there is a potential they could make things worse. I don't know how sensitive the VSC reaction is, but it would be easy to come up with a scenario where the stability control overreacts and aggravates a situation or causes the vehicle to behave in manner unpredictable to the driver. Again, not trying to be Chicken Little on this but I'd much rater vet this debate out here than be surprised on the highway later!
Back to my scenario, I'm going to try the SS lines along with some different pads. My sense is that I'm bottoming the pedal out due to flex in the system and I'm suspecting the rubber hose is a big part of that. That is the stretching of the hose is adding volume to the system and therefore preventing me/us from hitting maximum pressure at the bottom of the pedal stroke.
I disagree with part of this comment. In fact BBK would reduce stopping distance in almost every single real world driving circumstance. The exception might be in a controlled environment with both brakes working at their optimal conditions. But that's just not the normal driving circumstance. Heavy loads, stop-n-go, bad weather, long trips, and etc are all pretty normal for most of us.
The BBK's biggest advantage is that it consistently provides maximum stopping power under more circumstances than OEM. So the reverse is true that OEM wouldn't be at optimal braking under very many real world circumstance.
Therefore you could expect better stopping distances from the BBK. Of course the driver feedback, the pedal control, and the ability to dissipate heat in the components all contribute.
And let's be honest, drilled rotors are gimmicky. Its benefit is more along the lines of weight reduction than any cooling effects. Slotted are far better for improving braking.
In disc brakes the stopping force is friction, not leverage. The only braking system with a leverage force is the internal mechanism of a drum brake, but still friction slows the vehicle.
I don't agree with StopTech here. It sounds like theory for the sake of theory. In my practice, I've done 3 BBK conversions in my day and never had a problem with any of them. Although I guess one was on a car with no electronics (1965 Ford).
Also, consider that many cars come with many braking options from the factory and few, if any, contain different elctronic components. SVT and Shelby Mustangs have been offering different options for more aggressive pads for years. Other cars as well. Many offer a BBK straight from the factory or dealership (350Z, Mazda's, Fords, Corvettes, etc). Hard to believe there's any real world detriment in terms of different braking kits.
I don't agree with StopTech here. It sounds like theory for the sake of theory. In my practice, I've done 3 BBK conversions in my day and never had a problem with any of them. Although I guess one was on a car with no electronics (1965 Ford).
Also, consider that many cars come with many braking options from the factory and few, if any, contain different elctronic components. SVT and Shelby Mustangs have been offering different options for more aggressive pads for years. Other cars as well. Many offer a BBK straight from the factory or dealership (350Z, Mazda's, Fords, Corvettes, etc). Hard to believe there's any real world detriment in terms of different braking kits.
Sure brakes provide friction, but it's the leverage they have on the tire that does the braking. As tire diameter increases it becomes more difficult for the rotor to lock the tire. The 17-1/2" radius of a 35" tire is much greater than the 15-1/2" radius of a 31". Think in terms of using a cheater bar on a wrench; the resistance of the bolt didn't change, but now you have more leverage (torque) acting against it. Same with the brakes.
For the vehicles that come with BBK's are we certain that the OEM's didn't change the PV curves in the ABS computer?
Here's another link from a BMW site discussing the same problem. Again, not saying that it will cause a problem but that it could. As such, I'd rather exhaust other methods before messing with caliper volume. Does our car's ABS system no longer function with a BBK ? - Page 2 - The Unofficial BMW M5 Messageboard (m5board.com)
I think the quote that sums it up is post #18:
"Youre right with everything you said.
One addition by me:
The ABS and DSC are using a pressure modell [sic].
This pressure modell [sic] has to be adjusted for every brake model.
If you build in an aftermarket brake, this pressure model is not more correct and you are loosing performance in ABS and DSC.
But both systems are still working."
The leverage example you give is correct (love my breaker bar) but the force that slows the vehicle and the force that is always in question in terms of improved braking is undoubtably friction. This force is fickle by nature and the hardest to control and therefore nearly all improvements are geared toward it. Even the larger diameter brake rotors aren't designed with the intent of improving any leverage but in fact to provide a larger surface area to better control friction. Even at the tire/wheel, it's friction against the pavement.
I can't see any problems with brake systems for the LC/LX. It's known as one of the better braking SUV's on the market (go compare a Cayenne braking system to the LC/LX; all that braking system and barely stops 10 shorter at speeds). There are endless examples of similarly sized SUV with lesser brakes and less braking ability, yet still many of their owners are upgrading wheels, tires, etc. with no problems. Shoot, many of the Mudders are running huge tire/wheel combo's here with increased weight, increased/raised center of gravity, etc without your problem.
I read back through this thread to understand your problem better and I honestly don't think you're situation is one can only be resolved with a $4k BBK. If you've got the money, go for it.
IMO, it sounds like you instead have a problem that needs to be resolved. Lots of factors could be at play, including something such as pad and rotor thickness show plenty of life left but either/both have been glazed (which lowers the friction). I'm sure Mudders have already walked you down all the things that affect braking and I encourage walking down this road to find your problem.
Also somewhere around post #29 you were asking about SS lines. They keep the hydraulic pressures consistent by not flexing and expanding with the increased volume of fluid. This translates into more consistent application of the friction forces while braking. And even gives better feel to the driver's foot as the forces are more predictable and evenly applied. Loved mine on my GS430.
And we aren't certain that any of the manufacturers did/didn't make changes to the software of ABS systems. But I think we can all agree it's a high likelihood that most don't; never in my life have I heard of flashing an ABS system based on the brake package and none of the manufacturers are making that a requirement to sell you OEM equipment. Of course, there maybe a rare exception because the difference from the standard brake system and the upgrade option is so severe ... but we're talking super cars here (Porsche's all ceramic braking systems with 6 piston 14-15" systems); ya, that an $8-20k upgrade/option.
I can't see any problems with brake systems for the LC/LX. It's known as one of the better braking SUV's on the market (go compare a Cayenne braking system to the LC/LX; all that braking system and barely stops 10 shorter at speeds). There are endless examples of similarly sized SUV with lesser brakes and less braking ability, yet still many of their owners are upgrading wheels, tires, etc. with no problems. Shoot, many of the Mudders are running huge tire/wheel combo's here with increased weight, increased/raised center of gravity, etc without your problem.
I read back through this thread to understand your problem better and I honestly don't think you're situation is one can only be resolved with a $4k BBK. If you've got the money, go for it.
IMO, it sounds like you instead have a problem that needs to be resolved. Lots of factors could be at play, including something such as pad and rotor thickness show plenty of life left but either/both have been glazed (which lowers the friction). I'm sure Mudders have already walked you down all the things that affect braking and I encourage walking down this road to find your problem.
Also somewhere around post #29 you were asking about SS lines. They keep the hydraulic pressures consistent by not flexing and expanding with the increased volume of fluid. This translates into more consistent application of the friction forces while braking. And even gives better feel to the driver's foot as the forces are more predictable and evenly applied. Loved mine on my GS430.
And we aren't certain that any of the manufacturers did/didn't make changes to the software of ABS systems. But I think we can all agree it's a high likelihood that most don't; never in my life have I heard of flashing an ABS system based on the brake package and none of the manufacturers are making that a requirement to sell you OEM equipment. Of course, there maybe a rare exception because the difference from the standard brake system and the upgrade option is so severe ... but we're talking super cars here (Porsche's all ceramic braking systems with 6 piston 14-15" systems); ya, that an $8-20k upgrade/option.
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^^^ Chris, You won't believe the difference in the improvement in braking power, modulation, pedal feel and pedal height...and based upon installing the same on my '99 along with rebuilding the master cylinder (new plunger) your quest for better brakes on the LC will be over! They set a new braking benchmark for me (4x4).
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Stoptech BB's are on, bled, and bed... The difference is noticeable and worth the investment for the way I use my Hundy. The component quality is top notch and the kit is complete with all hardware required for the install.
Thanks spresso for leading the charge.
Thanks spresso for leading the charge.
^^^ Glad you stated all the parts were included...I forgot to mention that in my little write up! Pretty cool Stoptech included the hub flange gaskets and lock washers specific to our vehicle along with the appropriate Loctite thread sealant huh?!
And the top notch packaging! Double box within a box...and everything was packed to about the best degree I've ever seen from anyone. Not to mention very thorough instructions.
And the top notch packaging! Double box within a box...and everything was packed to about the best degree I've ever seen from anyone. Not to mention very thorough instructions.
Any more "long-term updates" from folks on the StopTech BBK? I've been thinking about making the upgrade (not for off-road reasons, but rather for the 99% of the time the truck is tooling around on city streets with a bunch of extra weight attached to it...)
Are there rear brakes available yet as well?
Are there rear brakes available yet as well?
No regrets I'll tell ya! Based on the braking transformation I experienced it was worth every cent.
The Stoptech website has been overhauled...it looks like Centric purchased Stoptech...dunno.
The Stoptech website has been overhauled...it looks like Centric purchased Stoptech...dunno.
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spressomon said:
Out of curiosity,can you lock the mtr's now on dry pavement without sand/dirt?
I haven't tried... There in lies one of the benefits of a larger diameter rotor...much better modulation and hence control at all braking levels especially noticeable at the top of the peak power curve. Where as before with the ART's and carbon-Kevlar pads I could skid the tires if I wanted to...just completely different now.
