Brake Upgrade

[OOCustoms]

Following, any updates?

 

[cboyd]

Well, I think I’ve finally arrived at the end of my drama with brakes on my 99. My truck has had all of the known issues: double pump pedal, failed accumulator, and generally crappy braking action. My rig runs heavy, so that doesn’t help things.

Here’s a little of the story of what I’ve done over the past years, only to eventually Have the brakes feel bad again:

my quest in earnest started after the failed accumulator. Starting after a fresh master cylinder install, I had the whole system purged and bled with new fluid by the dealer using a techstream bleed. System ran great for awhile, but after sitting, would develop squishy brakes. Next, I swapped all the soft lines to Slee braided stainless lines. Again, amazing for some time, then would lose its luster. Each time I toyed with replacing the calipers in the rear where I suspected the issue to be, but each time, a dealer or an independent mechanic would talk me out of it. I always suspected the right rear caliper to have some issue.... it would get rebuilt, but eventually the squishy would return.

This summer at HiH, things got bad enough that I lost confidence in the rig on the extreme technical stuff. I knew my rear rotors were getting close to run out, so I made the decision to make the move and upgrade everything.

The latest stage seems to be the fix and a significant upgrade in the brake feel. After doing tons of research over the years, I knew stoptech could be an option but upgrading wheels and tires on top of the whole braking systems seemed over the top. (Included in that is having to upgrade my trailer too, since It has matching wheels and tires for common sparing.)

So what did I do? After listening to a couple of Offroad podcasts and hearing about TerrainTamer again, I decided to do more research. After talking to the Georg at Cruiser Brothers about his experience with the TerrainTamer slotted and drilled rotors, consulting with a few other big brains, I decided to take the plunge. I ordered the full rotor and pad set along with the e-brake pads and other needed items from @beno . Onur knows this stuff cold, and along with helping with the procurement of all of the parts, was a great fountain of knowledge about the whole system. We discussed doing the calipers as well. I could not see doing the whole job and leave the original calipers in. We discussed doing the OEM calipers, but he pointed out that the Napa Eclipse were actually OEM cores. You have to be a bit careful and make sure the ones they bring out have the Japanese marks, but if you’re diligent, you get OEM cores which a refurb and significantly less money. Given the amount I’ve already spent on this truck for brakes, the cost of the calipers was truly noise.... but the Napa calipers are like half of OEM price. Done.

Parts in hand, I worked with my friends up a Mainline Overland at their Bow, NH shop to do the full swap while i was on a business trip. Eric and his crew are building a great business and reputation there and I wanted to support them. Originally, I wanted to do some of the work myself, but my business schedule wouldn’t allow for it. Plus I just wanted it done.

So with great fanfare — all new TerrainTamer rotors and pad, 4 new calipers — she stops on a dime! Great pedal feel, excellent grab and honestly feel better than my 06 hundy, which has always had great brakes. So if anyone is doubting their setup try this recipe:

Slee SS braided lines
TerrainTamer Slotted and Drilled rotors
TerrainTamer Pads
Napa Eclipse Calipers (or OEM)
Full Fuid flush and TechStream bleed.

If you’re felling really bold and have money burning a whole in your pocket (or forced by failure) do the whole Master Cylinder/accumulator replacement too (and force them to swap the pedal plunger too!)

My rig has 250k on it and I honestly feel like this brake setup is better than when it came from the factory new! Best money spent on this truck in a long while!!! “Brakes before lockers, lockers before lights!”

 

[Kofoed]

I have the double-pump syndrome. I have new rotors on front and new pads all around. That won't solve double pump, but it stops well. I will bleed system first

 

[cboyd]

I have the double-pump syndrome. I have new rotors on front and new pads all around. That won't solve double pump, but it stops well. I will bleed system first

Make sure you read the thread on replacing the pedal plunger. That works for many.

 

[squeezer]

Nobody with Big Brakes...???

So tons of good discussion and opinions being floated out here but seriously nobody has the Stoptech upgrade (or any other). Anybody with actual experience??? Anybody????

Moving on from that lets put the dollar discussion on the table... Yes the full blown big brake kits look expensive but lets break it down (excuse the pun...). A decent quality brake job on the front costs $350 or so bucks plus the labor and/or your own time. Throw in some braided lines for 100 bucks and call it $450 for hard parts and $4-6 hundred for labor. Yea some people can do it for cheaper than that myself included, but keep reading. I fully buy into the cementite theroy on why rotors feel warped and have never had any luck turning rotors... In 90K miles of 80 series ownership I "warped" and replaced rotors 3 times (And yes I did the full bed in procedure each time) . I will take 100% responsibility that it is driving style and road condition related. I have owned the hundy for almost a year (12K miles) and have developed the standard wheel shimmy. If experience holds true I will probably have to replace rotors every 30K... An upgraded rotor and caliper system should reduce (maybe eliminate) the new rotors every other year drill I have become accustomed to. If the upgrade gives me twice the brake (rotor) life the real cost is a wash in 4 years. Add in the spousal derived value of not having a brake pulse develop in the middle of a vacation through the Rockies and the out pf pocket costs don't worry me all that much. (How many of us drop $2K on a bumper and winch that gets used once a year just for fun?) If a big brake kit actually does what the manufacturers claim thats a fantastic performance value. But there is the rub, we read claims but nobody can come up with actual test data for our trucks.

The higher end replacement stuff (DBA, Powerstop, etc) is a no brainer of course. This thread is to help me decide if I want to be a guinea pig for Stoptech.

Cheers

Chris

13 years ago I wrote this while working on convincing myself the Stoptech BBK was worth the expense. Threw the kit on not long after ... It has been 13 years and 70K miles and I have not touched the brakes on Atilla (The Hundy) other than to flush and bleed the system. To say the Stoptechs exceeded expectations is a massive understatement!!!

 

[MechE30]

But is it worth $11k?

 

[squeezer]

But is it worth $11k?

View attachment 3778831

Do this analysis on the opportunity cost of $350/Year for 11 years

 

[Goose17]

R1 Concepts brake pad and rotor kit with all the hardware from RockAuto and Napa black calipers that @OTRAMM recommends. Black everything, will look sick. That's what I am going to do on my 2000 LC. The OEM police are going to come for me! I know it!

 

[Rhetoric]

R1 Concepts brake pad and rotor kit with all the hardware from RockAuto and Napa black calipers that @OTRAMM recommends. Black everything, will look sick. That's what I am going to do on my 2000 LC. The OEM police are going to come for me! I know it!
View attachment 3778869View attachment 3778870

 

[2001LC]

If your 98-02, barking is a bit weak. With those oversized tires and some armor. There's an easy solution!

In 2003 the 100 series was updated, with large front caliper pistons.
The 89-02 can easily be fitted with the 03-07 front calipers. They just bolt on. Toss on some DBA rotors and pads. Replace the old flexible brake lines, with new OEM. Or, for rock hard pedal feel with just one toe, stopping on a dime. Install, SS braided flexible lines.

Flush with only Toyota brake fluid.

You'll have supper brakes, that will last!

 

[trdcorolla]

If your 98-02, barking is a bit weak. With those oversized tires and some armor. There's an easy solution!

In 2003 the 100 series was updated, with large front caliper pistons.
The 89-02 can easily be fitted with the 03-07 front calipers. They just bolt on. Toss on some DBA rotors and pads. Replace the old flexible brake lines, with new OEM. Or, for rock hard pedal feel with just one toe, stopping on a dime. Install, SS braided flexible lines.

Flush with only Toyota brake fluid.

You'll have supper brakes, that will last!

I learned something new today, i'll do some research on partsourq and make note if I ever need new calipers, thanks @2001LC

 

[2001LC]

I learned something new today, i'll do some research on partsourq and make note if I ever need new calipers, thanks @2001LC

You'll see at PQ, 98-02 front shim kit and 03-07 kits, have different part numbers. Drill down more, and see pistons also different P/N's as do the brakes piston seals.

In the 98-02 we see rear brake pads wear faster than fronts. In 03 front & rear pads, wear at about same mileage. I'd get 45K on rears pads (OEM) in my 01 and 90K miles in front OEM pad & rotors after turning on OTV.

BTW: Regardless of which pads you used, which some aftermarkets have inner shim. We must use correct (size clip for piston) outer front shim. The piston seals, pulls pistons back when brake released. The shim is attached to piston with fitting kit. Thus pulls pads off the rotors disk surface.

FWIW:
Brake pedal pulse, pull on steering wheel while braking and or vehicle bucking while braking. Are signs of disk runout or thickness variations of rotor disks and or wheel hub runout out of spec.
I use my, OTV lathe to correct disk out of spec.

 

[2001LC]

Warning:
Adding SS braided flexible brake lines. Give a very lite pedal ("One toe braking"), to engage brakes. This takes some getting use to, so we don't activate ABS needlessly.

Personally I find the OEM flexible lines, just fine. They fit and lock as design.
Most SS braided flex lines. Do not have banjo to caliper lock, nor fixed knuckle stabilize.

 

[trdcorolla]

So for earlier 100 series with big tires and armor is this correct?

OEM 03+ front calipers, dba front rotors, dba front pads, OEM 03+ fit kit

How would the all OEM below setup be vs the dba setup?

OEM 03+ front calipers, oem front rotors, oem front pads, OEM 03+ fit kit?

Any experience with the 2 different OEM front brake pads?
04465-60220 FG rated
04465-60230 FF rated

Are Toyota OEM -84 remanufactured calipers any good?

 

[Moridinbg]

The braided brake lines make small, but definitely noticeable difference.

 

[2001LC]

So for earlier 100 series with big tires and armor is this correct?

Yes! But even stock, better braking 03-up. When 98-02 are built, is when I hear most complains. They'll take more foot to pedal pressure and longer stopping distance. I'll slide through stops, 03 handle.

Old flexible lines (five 98-99, six 00-up), flex more with age. This gives a slightly sponge pedal feel. We in effect, lose a little assist, of brake booster system pressure, between brake master and pistons.

OEM 03+ front calipers, dba front rotors, dba front pads, OEM 03+ fit kit

How would the all OEM below setup be vs the dba setup? .

DBA, uses top shelf "metal" rotor/disk any appear (i've not measured the inner & outer disk) a tade thicker. Other than, they may dissipate heat a little better. The metal itself, doesn't increase braking. But if drilled and or slotted. Which, increases cooling. Brakes handle the supper long down hill passes, better. The ones where downshift TC to L & AT 1st, still requires braking.

DBA pads squeal last 1-5 MPH of a stop. The edge of pads can be chamfered, to reduce squeal. But that also reduces braking/pad surface.

A daily drive, has no reason to upgrade to DBA rotors and pads. OEM is fine. But that assume, one drives properly.

Why do some get 90K miles on a set of pads (98-02 45K on rears). Proper braking and control of speed:

• Use brakes to stop, not to control speed.
• Use transmission (H-L of TC when need to crawl), to control downhill speed. If you follow me on Mtn. HWY passes, you'll not see my brake lights come on.
• Don't floor gas pedal then hard brake stop to stop light to light, in city driving.
• Avoid stop and go traffic.

Improper braking, get 20K miles on a set of pads.

Heat:
Using brakes, heats brake fluid.
Riding brakes result in brake fluid boiling. Old brake fluid has more moisture, and boils at lower temp. Brake fade!
Also by riding brakes. Pads & rotor heat excessively (can catch fire). We then have less pads to rotor disk adhesion. Brake fade!

OEM 03+ front calipers, oem front rotors, oem front pads, OEM 03+ fit kit?

OEM front and rear rotors, are the same for all years of the 100 series.

Any experience with the 2 different OEM front brake pads?
04465-60220 FG rated
04465-60230 FF rated

Front Pads changed around mid 2005. AFAIK, for environmental reasons. I've not notice difference in the brown (98-05) or blue (06-07) pads. But, I do use color correct for year.

Are Toyota OEM -84 remanufactured calipers any good?

With fronts calipers, they'd be the same, new or -84 (remanufactured). This assume, remanufacture used OEM parts, which we don't actually know. Like in case of rack & pinion, rubber mounting bushing. But when we buy OEM -84 (any part). We known they replaced a specific list of parts, required by Toyota. Not just what remanufacture tech, thought needs.

Rear calipers, all years the same. But the best deal is new OEM.
-84, doesn't come with mounting plate. Which it is the mounting plate, we need in most cases. Why do you need mounting plate? Most do not grease the pins and replace pin boots (4), with every pad change. The boots then may fail, resulting in slide pins rust into mounting plate. This damages mounting plate.

Only reason we'd need to replace rear caliper. Is due to no rubber caps on bleeders. Bleeder then rust in caliper, and may damage calipers' bleeder seat. Resulting in a, weeping bleeder.

If brake fluid not regularly replaced/flush Or if piston boot fails. Piston may become pitted (front or rear). We can just replace piston and its seal. Caliper itself, if seat of bleeder good, is fine.

I find OEM brake fluid the best. Period!

 

[Goose17]

Any recommendations on where to order DBA rotors from? I might just go with OEM with the sale being back on, but I wanted to compare prices. Thanks

I just ordered some OEM fluid.

All 4 OEM rotors right now are $249.24 delivered, hard to beat that.

 

[GerLC100]

I ordered DBA DB1365XP and DBA4788S for my '99 LC on Amazon. Checked the DBA website for the right part numbers and went ahead with the best compromise between price and delivery time.

Edit: $100 front pads, $150 front rotors

 

[trdcorolla]

@2001LC If my front rotors and pads on my 2001 100 are still relatively new, would it be okay to upgrade to 03+ calipers and 03+ new fit kit and use my current rotors and pads?

 

[2001LC]

@2001LC If my front rotors and pads on my 2001 100 are still relatively new, would it be okay to upgrade to 03+ calipers and 03+ new fit kit and use my current rotors and pads?

Yes!

But actually it's shims, not "fit kit" you'll need. The fitting kit, has 4 long clips. These clips fit over pad outer edge inner and outer shims. They achor outer shim to pads, which outer shim clips into pads. So that outer shims, can pull pad away from rotor, when brakes released.
What happens is, as we release brakes, piston seal retracts. Piston seals, have squared edges, which curl/roll as we press on brake pedal pushing piston outward from calipers bore. The curling creates resistance, which relaxes, returning piston as brake released.

I'll see if I can clear parts differences, up a bit.

The rotors and pads, are the same size for all (98-07). Even the caliper is the same size (foot print). Just the calipers ID of bore for pistons, piston diameter along with piston seals increased in size. Which means, we also need the outer shims with their wider clips to fit wider ID of newer (larger) pistons.

You will need a few more parts: 4 Shims, 4 gaskets and 4 caliper bolts (bolts are optional).

One front shim kit. Kit has 8 shims, enough for both frt pads. Actually only need the 4 outer shims, but sold as kit with 4 inner and 4 outer.

04945-60010 SHIM KIT, ANTI SQUEAL, FRONT June 02-07 WIDER PISTON CLIPS 39 & 42mm

Also order, 4 new flex line banjo bolt gaskets (washers), that's 2 for each caliper.
Note: You can anneal (heat until color changes) the older (98-02) copper washer gaskets, to reuse! But new is best practice.

I also replace, the caliper mounting bolt (2 each side), or at minimum use a thread locker on old bolts. In the 200 series caliper bolts, which is same bolt size we use in 03-07, the threads come pre sealed (so have different P/N). In 200 series, they reduce the torque ~20%, since threads are lubed. Personally I still torque 100 series caliper bolts to 90ft-lbf, even when threads lubed (thread sealant, is a lube). Over torquing stretches bolts. But since next time, I will install new bolts anyway. I don't care.

The 98-02 caliper mounting bolts have a washer. With the newer bolts 03-07 we don't use a washer. You can use old bolt w/washer or new bolt W/O washer.

There was one other minor change. The 98-02 had copper flex line banjo bolt and washer, 03 -07 aren't copper. Which we can use either new or old we care too, on any years caliper.

One interesting thing about the copper banjo and gaskets. Copper turns green in presence of moisture. If we'd see green brake fluid from caliper, during flush/bleed. We knew, we needed to flush sooner, next time.

I suggest flushing before changing calipers. Then bleeding afterwards. Why; when we flush we don't get 80% of fluid that is in caliper, unless we press piston in, which we then get ~80% out.

Again, I use only Toyota brake fluid.

Make sure to clearly note on/in the vehicle somewhere. That 03-07 front caliper are installed. 03-07 shim kits must be used, for proper fitment.