Baselining our first 80 series: A '93 '3x locked FZJ80 (1 Viewer)

[ozarkmud]

Hi everyone!

I figure this rig could use a baselining thread. I'll have lots of questions along the way and maybe this will help document some of the vehicle's service. Appreciate any insight and suggestions you can offer.

It's a '93 FZJ80 that's 3x locked. Our first 80 series. My Toyota history includes a FJ60, pickups (2x 2WD, 1x 4WD, all 3 were 5 speed 22REs), a Tacoma, 4Runners (a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen), and a Sequoia.

This is a very stock rig that may stay stock, for the most part. It seems like it was barely ever offroad, but was also neglected for a very long time on a lot of basic maintenance.

Needs:

• Tires
• PHH (Previous owner did this)
• Idle Speed Control Valve / IAC repair: In progress
• Basic tuneup: Spark plugs, oil change, air filter, etc
  • Spark plugs
  • Spark plug wires (on the originals!) (Ordered)
  • Air filter
  • First oil change.
• Fix valve cover leak (#3 sparkplug seal as well)
• Brakes:
  • New Calipers
  • New pads
  • Bled
  • Bleed is not perfect, but functions. Would be good to bed pads in properly.
  • Debated removing ABS and have block off pieces, but will probably keep it for now.
• Rear axle job:
  • LH axle is in an oil bath, but leaking some at axle seal.
• Get the lockers working reliability.
  • They now seem to engage all of the time, but it can take a little bit before they turn on. This is just from activating them multiple times. Probably good to go for now.
• CDL switch.
• Pin 7 mod.
• Low range switch on the transfer case is intermitent, but not really an issue with the CDL switch.
• Can be hard/impossible to get into low range when it's cold out.
• Possible desmog.
• Knuckle job.
• Lots of items to add to this thread!

Rather than clutter this first post, I'll go ahead and write about the brake overhaul / rear axle job in progress.

 

[ozarkmud]

Brake overhaul and possible rear axle service

I started a thread about this here, that I'll continue here : FZJ80 brake pad job maybe turning into overhaul - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/fzj80-brake-pad-job-maybe-turning-into-overhaul.1298474/

Summary of the thread: This all started with the brake pads being far too thin, and hoping to replace just the pads. It looked like the calipers hadn't been serviced in a very long time, so I decided to replace them with remanufactured Toyota units. At present, I found out I have two front left calipers and am waiting on a front right swap to finish the brakes.

The rear left disc protector was covered in grease, so I was worried that it may have been leaking. I don't want to coat my new pads and old emergency brake shoes.

I tore into it, and it looks like it's been converted to an oil bath. Which I'm fine with and seems fairly common place. From what I can tell, the bearings are good. There's some wear patterns on various parts that I don't quite understand. The wheel bearings feel very smooth with a tiny, tiny amount of play, so I figure it should be tightened a hair.

What I now suspect is that the grease leak on the disc protector was never cleaned up, but that it's old and not current. It also looks like RTV sealant was used generously, even in the cones! Is that correct? I thought the cones should be completely dry, even on an oil bath setup.

Would appreciate it if someone could review the photos and see if this seems correct, or if I need to take care of anything else.

 

[ozarkmud]

Right rear brake / axle pictures, continued.

From what I can tell, the differential was correctly overfilled for oil bath wheel bearings. Is the use of RTV on the cone washers correct? Does it look like whatever leak it had before has stopped? Or is it possible something else is leaking, causing the grease / dirt build up? The rear right side is much cleaner. There are some signs of RTV on the rear right, but I have not yet torn into it.

How bad are the spots where the seals have worn the surface? Is there anything, other than snug up the wheel bearings, that I should do while I'm in here?

 

[Malleus]

@ozarkmud, your outer seal, and the gasket, needs to be replaced. RTV is not correct.

I assume you're planning to drain and refill the differential, since you've lost gear oil through the bearing seal(s). It's always a good idea to remove the fill plug BEFORE the drain plug. I like the OEM replacement hex socket plugs over the (original) OEM hex head plugs. Both are available at the dealership, or from Absolute Wit's End. I haven't tried them (yet), but rumor has it the differential oil bags are the cat's meow.

While you will find no end to the number of people who say that oiled rear bearings (as opposed to greased ones) are fine, what you have in your hands is why I don't like this setup (and why I suppose Toyota didn't either). It's fine, as long as the outer seals are intact, but you only have one seal in that setup, and if it fails, you lose differential oil and open the system to contamination.

It's probably a good idea to replace both the cone washers and lock washers, along with the nuts, if they're rounded off. You need them to be there and function properly, and they're springs which relax with age. All three are available at the dealership, or from Absolute Wit's End.

You need to completely remove the hub and clean it anyway, so my (personal) recommendation would be to reinstall the inner seal when you reassemble it. I'd also use some crocus cloth on those nasty journals. They should be shiny. The crocus cloth is fairly slow at removing material, so there's little danger of removing too much material and preventing the seal(s) from sealing. I get mine from Lincoln; one roll will probably last a lifetime, unless you're MIG welding, then it won't.

Regardless of what you decide to do when reassembling it, note the orientation of the outer seal when you remove it, if it's installed backwards, it'll leak.

Your parking brake shoes are trashed; they'll have to be replaced due to the oil on them. I had the same problem on two of my 80's when their inner seals failed. One good thing though, you're parking brake linkage isn't rusted solid

The wear pattern looks fine to me, but I'm here and not there (pictures sometimes lie).

One thing to bear in mind when installing the rear hub seal - make damn sure both the cup and cone are in there BEFORE you install the seal. And make certain the cup and seal are pressed in all the way, or the hub won't go on all the way.

 

[ozarkmud]

Thank you so much for your reply. That is really helpful. Diff oil in a bag sounds awesome. I am though tempted to stay in the dark side and just put it back together as an oil bath -- provided it wasn't leaking. If leaking, then I would be more interested in switching to grease. I can see some of the logic both ways. Oil is better for bearings, but leaks a lot easier. I wonder if there's a slight MPG improvement from grease to oil, too. But also some dangerous aspects if it all leaks out.

From the pictures, can you tell if the leak is current? As far as I could tell, the grease/dirt was probably old and it was just not cleaned up. I tore into it thinking it was leaking as something had to have been leaking at one point, but at least it seems like maybe it was sealed. I still wonder though, even for an oil bath, if it was not done very well. RTV on the cones is weird, although the cuts in them are fairly large.

It's been a while with the Land Cruiser down now. I'd like to get it going again, provided it's safe. I'd feel weird converting one oil bath side back to grease and not both.

 

[gummycarbs]

Oil is better for bearings

According to who?

I wonder if there's a slight MPG improvement from grease to oil, too.

I seriously doubt it. At operating speeds, the grease is thins out significantly. Put some Amsoil NLGI #2 in there and I'll bet it's as good as you're going to get. Regardless, friction from greased bearings is way, way, way down on the list of things that inhibit the efficiency of an 80.

RTV on the cones is weird

There should be no RTV anywhere. Use acetone to get rid of it completely.

Check the axle shaft for a groove where the seal rides. If you can feel it with your fingernail, you might have a problem. All that built-up grease and gear oil may or may not be fresh. Either way, it's a hazard. I can't imagine someone re-sealing it and cleaning up the parking brake pads without bothering to clean the rest of it.

 

[baldilocks]

Forever and day most all full floating axle assembly’s have used gear oil to lube wheel bearings. I broke the right rear shaft at Moab in 2017. The shaft broke outboard at the flange so the shaft flopped around and damaged the seal. I had a new shaft shipped in and installed at a local shop. The seal was not replaced.

Earlier this year, five years later, I yanked the rear hubs while installing RCV shafts. Those bearings that have been in oil for five years looked virginal new. The bearings opposite that have been in grease all this time show signs of age, and wear.

Now tell me I should service the wheel bearings every year or something more often especially if I drive through water. Who wants to pack bearings ever let alone every year when you can let the gear oil keep the bearings lubed with constantly moving oil? Changing the gear oil every time you drive though water is nothing compared to a wheel bearing job.

 

[ozarkmud]

Alright, well the front brake calipers are on! No anti-squeal shims, unfortunately, but maybe next time.

I started digging into the rear left axle again. I brake cleaned a lot of the gunk off. With closer inspection, it did seem like there was a leak after all, with a light coating of gear oil on the steel part of the shoes. The gear oil has all seemed very clean, at least.

As I dug into it earlier, seeing so much RTV, I had assumed that it was a deliberate attempt at a oil bath setup. However, it's now clear that there still is the seal in the end of the axle stub. I'm not quite sure what to think as there was plenty of gear oil and it didn't seem to be mixed with grease. Just very questonable to try a gear oil bath for the bearings, while leaving in the seal itself, even if partly blown out. The bearings appear decent. There definitely is some wear on the axle shaft at the sealing surfaces. How much and how much it matters, I'm not sure.

Seeing how this all fits together, with the studs going into a blind hole, it makes no sense at all that the cone washers were RTVed. I've since noticed RTV on the cone washers in the front, too.

One thing I noticed is that the hub seal installed appears different than the replacements I have: 90311-62002. It's fairly clear in pictures how different it is to the OEM parts.

As far as the orientation of the hub seal goes, I'm assuming the metal is on the outside, or no? It would seem easiest to install it that way. And I'm assuming, from what's installed, that the axle seal is spring first? Edit: It sounds like the rubber flange sticks out, towards the differential, so have to be careful putting it in. The axle seal does have the spring facing towards the differential.

 

[ozarkmud]

As far as grease vs oil, this is a good video if you want to try oil:



Probably a good reference if you haven't considered it before. I am still debating but leaning towards oil since the other side is probably in oil. Or maybe I should bite the bullet and do both sides? But it isn't leaking and doesn't feel loose, so I'm hesitant.

 

[ozarkmud]

For the job in general, this is the best reference video I've found so far.



It seems like a number of people recommend the Terrain Tamer seal, but I'm sure if there are any US distributors that carry it: TERRAIN TAMER HEAVY DUTY HUB SEAL INNER - https://online.terraintamer.com/terrain-tamer-heavy-duty-hub-seal-inner

Edit: This video seems to recommend RTV on the outside of both of the seals. Does that make sense? It doesn't seem harmful. A bit different than I'm used to. He also says that the Terrain Tamer seal, given its rotating nature, is ideal when the axle flange is worn down from the old type of seal.

 

[FMC80]

Great work so far. Has anyone already directed you to the resources section on Mud to get a digital copy of the FSM? If not, do so because the FSM is an invaluable resource when maintaining our cruisers. I always install anti-squeal kits with the brake calipers/pads; did you not buy them ahead of time? Anyway, keep up the great work.

 

[ozarkmud]

Great work so far. Has anyone already directed you to the resources section on Mud to get a digital copy of the FSM? If not, do so because the FSM is an invaluable resource when maintaining our cruisers. I always install anti-squeal kits with the brake calipers/pads; did you not buy them ahead of time? Anyway, keep up the great work.

Thank you!

Initially, I bought the front and rear caliper rebuild kits from Absolute Wits' End, but the order became backordered and I haven't heard anything about it. I went through the parts list on those pages and ended up reordering them from McGeorge. I did not realize the anti-squeal shims weren't there. Banjo bolts could've been a good idea as well, but they weren't listed and I think my old ones will do

The other times ordering I just forgot to get them. I figure it's a little late now and I just want to wrap it up soon.

I do have a digital copy of the FSM, although one day getting a hard copy would be pretty nice.

Edit: I wanted to add an update about Absolute Wit's End. I completely forgot that they sent out an email saying that they suddenly had to move by the end of the year, and that may well be the reason for the unresponsiveness.

 

[ozarkmud]

Made some progress this evening.

Here's the old vs new (OEM) seal

The old seal did make a great seal driver for the new one, at least.

I probably should've scraped the gasket first, whoops.

Much better.

I cleaned up the grease enough to know if a new leak is present or not.

Smeared a light coat of grease on the axle stub, even though I'm attempting a deliberate oil bath.

Hub installed, outer bearing, and lock nut thing.

Bearings adjusted. I had to do this a couple times to get it so there was no play.

More to follow.

 

[ozarkmud]

Going for the oil bath, I attempted RTV but carefully avoiding the cone washers. I haven't done much RTV and was probably on the conservative side.

Could actually see a bit of it ooze out the outside, so hoping the coverage is enough. I wouldn't be shocked if I had a leak, though.

Was almost ready to wrap up the axle, and I accidentally set the hand brake adjustment too far out. I was able to get the drum off, but it was an absolute bear to do. And one of the shoe attachments came out. I'll be more careful to set the brake adjustment very conservatively next time.

Not really sure how to get it all back together. It seems very tricky to get the stub thing out far enough to engage on that circle X thing. Do you guys have any suggestions here?

 

[baldilocks]

Persistence always works for me when I lack a special tool or there is simply no “trick to it”.

You probably could have used double gaskets to avoid using RTV. Anytime you use a sealant, use the Toyota or Aisin FIPG. It’s some very good stuff.

 

[BILT4ME]

Going for the oil bath, I attempted RTV but carefully avoiding the cone washers. I haven't done much RTV and was probably on the conservative side.

View attachment 3205394


View attachment 3205395

Could actually see a bit of it ooze out the outside, so hoping the coverage is enough. I wouldn't be shocked if I had a leak, though.

View attachment 3205396

Was almost ready to wrap up the axle, and I accidentally set the hand brake adjustment too far out. I was able to get the drum off, but it was an absolute bear to do. And one of the shoe attachments came out. I'll be more careful to set the brake adjustment very conservatively next time.

View attachment 3205397


View attachment 3205398

Not really sure how to get it all back together. It seems very tricky to get the stub thing out far enough to engage on that circle X thing. Do you guys have any suggestions here?

Do NOT install the outer spindle seal if you're going with oil bath.

Also, park the truck sideways on a serious incline for 5 minutes per side downhill, and check diff fluid levels before, between, and after doing this.

I didn't do that and I learned the hard way on my Dad's 78 Chevy 3/4T 4x4 and he was pissed.

I second the paper gasket, but not doubled and with no sealant.

 

[BILT4ME]

Forever and day most all full floating axle assembly’s have used gear oil to lube wheel bearings. I broke the right rear shaft at Moab in 2017. The shaft broke outboard at the flange so the shaft flopped around and damaged the seal. I had a new shaft shipped in and installed at a local shop. The seal was not replaced.

Earlier this year, five years later, I yanked the rear hubs while installing RCV shafts. Those bearings that have been in oil for five years looked virginal new. The bearings opposite that have been in grease all this time show signs of age, and wear.

Now tell me I should service the wheel bearings every year or something more often especially if I drive through water. Who wants to pack bearings ever let alone every year when you can let the gear oil keep the bearings lubed with constantly moving oil? Changing the gear oil every time you drive though water is nothing compared to a wheel bearing job.

Just remember that changing your differential gear oil does NOT change your wheel bearing oil. It can only run OUT to the bearings, but not back in.

So, if you get water in the hubs, it's there until it boils out.

 

[baldilocks]

Just remember that changing your differential gear oil does NOT change your wheel bearing oil. It can only run OUT to the bearings, but not back in.

So, if you get water in the hubs, it's there until it boils out.

If gear oil can flow In it must be able to flow out. I drove through plenty of water above the axle over the years my right seal was damaged and oil was in the hub and those bearings were in great condition.

 

[BILT4ME]

If gear oil can flow In it must be able to flow out. I drove through plenty of water above the axle over the years my right seal was damaged and oil was in the hub and those bearings were in great condition.

Not readily because the oil level is below the ID of the bottom of the spindle. Therefore, the oil level in the hub is below the spindle when at rest.
There is no "mechanism" to force the oil out of the hub in order to be replenished by the differential.

Centripetal force will cause the oil to be thrown to the outside while driving and there will be some dripping down onto the axle shaft and working it's way back into the differential, but it's minimal.

New oil is pushed out while cornering and maybe that mixing is enough to dilute any moisture buildup in the hubs.

It's a very passive system either way.

 

[baldilocks]

Not readily because the oil level is below the ID of the bottom of the spindle. Therefore, the oil level in the hub is below the spindle when at rest.
There is no "mechanism" to force the oil out of the hub in order to be replenished by the differential.

Centripetal force will cause the oil to be thrown to the outside while driving and there will be some dripping down onto the axle shaft and working it's way back into the differential, but it's minimal.

New oil is pushed out while cornering and maybe that mixing is enough to dilute any moisture buildup in the hubs.

It's a very passive system either way.

I break the rules on a regular basis as you know. My pinion is pointed up due to running a rear DC shaft, so, when I fill the rear diff I point the nose of my rig down the incline of my driveway so as to overfill is a bit. Haven’t had a problem yet.

So basically, our rear axle was not designed to use oil bath as the lube for the wheel bearings. This discussion has been had before. Refreshing the hub oil by going off camber side to side is a good reason to go wheeling. Most wives, will understand and agree. LOL