At a crossroads - Do I open this can of worms? (V8 Location/Clutch Replacement) (1 Viewer)

[pbgbottle]

mine is like 12.5-13 inches from that shock mount rib .almost inline with the rivet on the frame .

 

[nitroid13]

I think when they did the swap they got the driveshafts backward and they just moded the truck around the driveshafts. The difference in driveshaft length would suggest this

 

[sometlc]

I think mine is at the same spot as pbgbottles.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

Normal Chevota radiator location would be rearward and downward. Rearward because the rad will be too far in front of the fan blade. Downward because the fan blade center will be well below the rad center, and even possibly cutting through the path of the lower rad hose. Typically bottom of rad mounting housing would be close to bottom of front crossmember rather than on top of it. Engine position wise, guys use to cram the engine back into the firewall trying to save drive shaft modifying bucks (they merely swapped front to rear), but then there was no air behind the engine and those rigs ran 240 degrees all day long. Heat radiated out of the back of the engine, hit the firewall, then bounced right back into the engine. Many problems with the engine too far forward, I won't even go into that.

Currently, the radiator location is stock - fan seems to be located pretty OK, height wise. Perhaps my engine is mounted too high, as well. I would think (aside from COG benefits) you'd want the engine tucked up as high as you can reasonably go to keep your driveline high and out of harm's way...

Any rough idea as to how far from the firewall the engine should be? I've talked to a few other Chevota guys here, and have heard everything from a quarter inch away to 3 inches away...I definitely see how mounting it too close could cause cooling issues. Plus, the cab gets hot enough already!

Also curious as to the other issues with having the engine too far forward, aside from the obvious ones I'm already running into (fan too close to radiator, outrageous shifter dogleg)

Might have some parts you need as I just pulled a V283 from my 67'Fj40. The engine was shot, but had a new clutch kit, new NOS SM420, and 3spd transfer engine had an avenger carb/truck, not sure what adapter was used, but the engine was fit nicely in the engine bay. I am putting an F2 engine in the truck with a split case, so everything is available - drive shafts, rear cross member. It all in Connecticut.

I'd be interested to see what you've got. Most likely not looking for a new transmission. I THINK mine is OK, unless the input shaft is severely worn. If I do go with a new transmission, I'll most likely stick to the Toyota 4-speed. Connecticut is a bit of a hike, but I travel some for work, so we might be able to work something out. The carb is of interest, since my old Buick Quadrajet barely gets the job done...Shoot me a PM if you'd like to discuss further.

I would redo it. You have pretty much everything you need already. I went back as far as I could go due to having it mated to a sm420 so I could get it past the heater. I installed it about 1" towards the passenger side to allow for steering clearance. The slope of the set up should be about 3º from front to back to a max of 5º. I also put it as low as I could for good COG. I have the motor out at this time but can snap some pics if you want.

If you have the mounts still installed, I'd be interested to see some measurements, from the X-member, shock towers, etc. for reference. As I mentioned above - what is a good tradeoff between low (good COG) and too low (oil pan conflicts with axle or bottoming out your driveline over obstacles)?

mine is like 12.5-13 inches from that shock mount rib .almost inline with the rivet on the frame .

Yup - that's about in line with what I've been seeing - it seems like I'm a solid 3-4 inches too far forward. Shifting the engine back 3.5 inches would still give me a couple inches between the firewall and the heads...

I think when they did the swap they got the driveshafts backward and they just moded the truck around the driveshafts. The difference in driveshaft length would suggest this

In my truck? I would certainly hope they couldn't be that dumb...but given the other "mods" I've dealt with so far, anything is possible...My front driveshaft is significantly shorter than the rear, obviously a result of the engine being tucked way up front. That said, I don't think moving the engine back would allow me to simply "swap" the driveshafts, they'd both need modifying. I'll try to remember to take measurements next time I'm under the truck.

 

[nitroid13]

In my truck? I would certainly hope they couldn't be that dumb...but given the other "mods" I've dealt with so far, anything is possible...My front driveshaft is significantly shorter than the rear, obviously a result of the engine being tucked way up front. That said, I don't think moving the engine back would allow me to simply "swap" the driveshafts, they'd both need modifying. I'll try to remember to take measurements next time I'm under the truck.

When it comes to stupidity I never underestimate the human race. These mods look to me like one of those shops that Jim c talks about in his thread "how not to restore a 40". I'm sure the driveshafts are assbackward and all it takes is a simple measurement to tell

I too have a 77/40 all original with 57k on the clock and I just measured the drive shafts
Front is 29 1/4"
Rear is 21 1/2
With a difference of 8 1/4. Looking at the pictures this seems to explain it to me at least
Now the driveshafts do have a slide yoke and that makes the mesurement +\- about an inch and mine are installed and no lift

 

[sometlc]

I measured from the inside of the front crossmember.

Center of the mount is 23"

This is the passenger side motor mount.

And the drivers side mount.

Hope this helps for you. I can take more measurements if needed.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

@sometlc - where did those mounts come from? Look a lot beefier than the AA style "donuts" (at least the ones in my truck)

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

When it comes to stupidity I never underestimate the human race. These mods look to me like one of those shops that Jim c talks about in his thread "how not to restore a 40". I'm sure the driveshafts are assbackward and all it takes is a simple measurement to tell

I too have a 77/40 all original with 57k on the clock and I just measured the drive shafts
Front is 29 1/4"
Rear is 21 1/2
With a difference of 8 1/4. Looking at the pictures this seems to explain it to me at least
Now the driveshafts do have a slide yoke and that makes the mesurement +\- about an inch and mine are installed and no lift

The funny thing is, this truck was apparently converted by an actual shop that specialized in this - "Go-Ten" manufacturing, in Union City, CA. I have a sticker on the door frame. The sticker also indicates a 1971 350SBC - the engine that is in there is definitely a 1965-67 era 283 SBC. Obviously the engine was changed, but I'd be surprised whoever swapped the engine went through all the trouble to move the mounts...doesn't make sense to me...

My driveshafts are currently out of the truck due to my axle overhaul - I'll try to remember to take some measurements tonight and report back. Either way, it sounds like the "right thing to do" is to move this engine backward 3-4 inches. This poor bastard has been through enough hack jobs in its life, I'm just trying to be a GOOD PO

That said, it does get very old spending asinine amounts of money to fix someone else's stupid...

 

[madoc1]

i'll play. measurement from frt. crossmember to mount is 23 1/2. from dist. to firewall about 2 1/2. engine is offset to the right about 1". manifold clears steering box by about 1/2". you can see in the pic where the mount lines up with the curve in the inner fenderwell.

 

[sometlc]

They are AA mounts.

 

[acy76]

With all the effort you'd be expending to correct these issues, do you think installing a stock drivetrain would be an easier/cheaper alternative at this point?

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

With all the effort you'd be expending to correct these issues, do you think installing a stock drivetrain would be an easier/cheaper alternative at this point?

The short answer: No.

The longer answer: That would involve buying the correct motor (and probably rebuilding it), plus installing the correct mounts (engine and transmission) along with all the the (long gone) emissions equipment. This, and all of my wiring and plumbing has been adapted to the V8.

In terms of WORK invested, yes, it's probably equal at this point, but it is probably still far cheaper to stick with the V8.

Furthermore, there is already an issue with parts availability for the F motors. I have nothing against the 2F, but in the grand scheme of things, parts of the GenI/GenII Small Block Chevy will be around for eons to come - which means I'll be able to find replacements when I need them, without major issues.

Love the 2F, but backwards converting it to stock is not a bridge I'll be crossing with this project. If I picked a different engine, I'd be going 3FE or some form of diesel. That said, I won't be picking a new engine, because thats a few more grand I don't have.

 

[sometlc]

I agree 100%. Not really a big challenge or expense in moving what you have as everything is there.

 

[nitroid13]

The funny thing is, this truck was apparently converted by an actual shop that specialized in this - "Go-Ten" manufacturing, in Union City, CA. I have a sticker on the door frame. The sticker also indicates a 1971 350SBC - the engine that is in there is definitely a 1965-67 era 283 SBC. Obviously the engine was changed, but I'd be surprised whoever swapped the engine went through all the trouble to move the mounts...doesn't make sense to me...

My driveshafts are currently out of the truck due to my axle overhaul - I'll try to remember to take some measurements tonight and report back. Either way, it sounds like the "right thing to do" is to move this engine backward 3-4 inches. This poor bastard has been through enough hack jobs in its life, I'm just trying to be a GOOD PO

That said, it does get very old spending asinine amounts of money to fix someone else's stupid...

Well said sr. Very well said. But your truck is worth saving and putting right. These trucks are getting more rare every day. I wish ppl would stop parting out good trucks just because they don't have the skill, money, or time to fix them. They should sell them whole to someone that does have the resources. They also pass over good trucks just cuz the have a little rust on the quarters or needs a replacement sill or floor work. I'm trying to save 3 40s call me crazy lol but iv developed a real love for these rust prone hunks of metal

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

So, in putting this all together, I need to keep in mind what else will be moving.

Here is the obvious list of "things to do" while I'm in there

1. Reposition Motor mounts/Engine
2. Inspect Transmission (gears, bearings, input shaft) assuming all is well, reseal. T-case is new, condition is good.
>>>Install FJ60 top cover for additional heater clearance (not sure if this really works, but I've heard it does)...
3. New bell-housing clutch/bearings
4. Engine: Replace oil pan gasket/rear main seal/timing/crank cover gasket
5. Reposition Xfer case mounts
6. New Engine/Trans Mount Cushions
7. Modify Drive Shaft Lengths (maybe new U-Joints, while they're out?)
8. Most likely replace exhaust (or weld new hangers to existing, but it's pretty shot)

Are there any additional components that need to move, that I am missing? I've been doing some reading, and it seems like Exhaust/Driveshafts/Mount locations will be the primary modifications needed to make this setup fit. Is there a major component that I'm missing?

 

[sometlc]

That should have you covered. Should be able to just shorten the exhaust somewhere pretty easily. You may want a new shifter for your transmission.

 

[handcannon]

Check your speedometer cable length, and the E-brake cable length. Most likely they will be good, but it's better to be aware of possible problems and be watching for them.

Don

 

[madoc1]

if you move the engine back, you will not need a fj60 cover thingy. you will need to get the original shift mechanisms tho. the exhaust is easy with the walker cross over pipe.

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

if you move the engine back, you will not need a fj60 cover thingy. you will need to get the original shift mechanisms tho. the exhaust is easy with the walker cross over pipe.

Interesting - I was under the impression that, even with moving the engine rearward, you'd still wind up with the transmission housing under the heater, necessitating a dog-leg in the shifter (albeit not the trainwreck dogleg I currently have). I figure by also including the FJ60 top plate, I might be able to get away with a dog-leg altogether, and get the shifter back toward where it was with the original inline 6...

That should have you covered. Should be able to just shorten the exhaust somewhere pretty easily. You may want a new shifter for your transmission.

New shifter is probably inevitable. That said, I'm hoping that the idiot who did this conversion took a similar approach to what he did on the T-case shifter - simply cut it in half, weld in a long piece of flat bar at 90 degrees, then weld the top half back on...

If that's the case, I'll just cut out the flat bar, and weld the shifter back together...

 

[RWBeringer4x4]

@madoc1 - with that walker cross pipe, how did it mate up to the manifolds? Did you have to add any extensions, modify the flanges, etc?