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- #41
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another franken turbo thread 2h CT26 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter o8ko8k
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Tapage
Club 4X4 Panamá
how long have you had grampa on the juice tapage?
I'm boosting 14 PSI on my 2H since 2008 or so .. altho it's not my DD .. but when I use it, I nail it !
- Thread starter
- #43
stock pistons?
also...
anyone seen a side-by-side photo of the stock pistons and the reinforced ones? im curious what the difference in appearance is...
<EDIT> scratch that, i found that from here and here
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/339345-such-impresive-2h-t-3.html
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/469846-my-2h-trashed-3.html
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Tapage
Club 4X4 Panamá
stock everything ...
Where did you get the 12ht piston squirters and what sort of $$$ WN...
They came in a box of engine parts when I bought two Hj60's along with a few spare engines in pieces. No idea on the cost.
Do tell on how much work was involved in installing the piston squirters.
If and when we start the short block build we will have a thread on it and conical all the changes and mods made as well as the piston squirter's.
FYI, I am getting ready to install a turbo on my 40,000 original mile 2H. I'm also flushing all fluids and replacing.
I spoke with RADD Cruisers the other day and they told me that all of their rebuild kits for the 2H utilize Alfin type pistons.
I spoke with RADD Cruisers the other day and they told me that all of their rebuild kits for the 2H utilize Alfin type pistons.
At 40k miles you should have no issues for a long time if EGT's and boost are kept in check.
https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/79256-turbo-2h.html
I fitted my T3 turbo in 2006 and have never had a problem since. Soon after I bought a set of Hypatec pistons and they are still in their box on the top shelf in the garage.
I fitted my T3 turbo in 2006 and have never had a problem since. Soon after I bought a set of Hypatec pistons and they are still in their box on the top shelf in the garage.
- Thread starter
- #53
UPDATE (added intercooler):
As most anyone who has attempted to add a turbo a 2h engine or read a little bit about it, the 2h likes to overheat as a result and this has been bothering me for some time. I went to great lengths to put my engine’s cooling system in tip top shape but to no avail. I suspected my intake air charge was the culprit. So I finally installed THIS input air sensor unit made by glow-shift a few weeks back. The new installed sensor was telling me that it was 100F outside, 10PSI boost, resulting in a 270F IAT (intake air temp)
This guy tunes Duramax diesel engines and has lots of great resources for learning about diesel tuning. I have referenced this article as I will be quoting pieces of it and don’t want to pass off the literature as my own. http://killerbeeperformance.com/download/tuning/Timing%20the%20Diesel.pdf
“Let’s assume an auto ignition temperature of 800 F for our diesel platform. With a fixed15 BTDC injection pulse, the ignition event begins at around 10 degrees BTDC, using a standard cetane delay value of 5 degrees. If the ignition event lasts for 40 degrees of rotation, then there is 10 degrees of negative torque and 30 degrees of positive torque, resulting in 20 degrees of net positive torque.”
“But what happens if the entry air-charge heats up and is now 240 F (270 in my case with just 10PSI of boost)? This is an actual example of the effect of higher load and induction heat soak while climbing a grade. If the timing event is unchanged then there is 13 degrees of negative torque, and 22 degrees of positive torque, net positive torque has been dramatically reduced to 9 degrees. Note the loss of 5 degrees of duration; this is due to the decrease in combustion time that results from the hotter environment. So to restore net torque to 20 degrees, injection timing must be retarded 5 degrees. (5 degrees has a 10 degree “net” effect, a little change goes a long way). If this adjustment is not made dynamically, then you experience an efficiency reduction and a noticeable loss of power on grade.”
“Now let’s assume that you are towing a grade in the desert southwest, at 7000 ft, and the outside temperature is 92 degrees with 6% humidity. Assume further that you are using a boost enhancing device (because you hate the high EGT’s that these conditions create). Soon the engine is heat soaked at 230 F ECT, and the air charge leaving the intercooler (IAT2) has crept up to 240 F. And you are now looking around asking “why is this truck continuing to lose power?” Now you know the answer. Besides having thin air at that temperature, the stock injection timing is now too advanced for the conditions, and too much of the fuel is trying to turn the motor in reverse. Now if you take away 5 degrees of timing advance, say from 12 BTDC to 7, using a handy switched EFILive tune, some of that torque and power will be instantly restored on grade. If we are burning the same quantity of fuel, then more power equals more speed, which equals better fuel economy. Another option is to remove boost. “WAIT!” you say. “Won’t that reduce my power also?” Not exactly. Since more boost creates faster ignition, and vice versa, if we remove some boost from an over-advanced scenario (by virtue of heat), it is like pulling timing.
It is my understanding that the 2h engine, sadly, has a static injection timing meaning; while it’s running its always injecting at the same crank angle and for the same duration no fancy computers to alter this on the fly.
I need to cool down my engine on the hot desert grades. With the above information my new working theory for overheating is this ...
Higher IATs, 270F in my case, advance my ignition timing just a measly 3 degrees and shorten the combustion duration by a whopping 10 degrees. “too much fuel is trying to turn my motor in reverse” This is where the overheating is happening not the added induction heat but what that heat can do to the combustion cycle which advances it and shortens it! Also very bad is advancing peak cylinder pressure towards TDC or BTDC which is where I completely suspect the 2h’s problems with boost are coming from NOT from additional intake air pressure but from extra intake air temp.
So I added an intercooler up front of the A/C and now my land cruier’s face is all ugly but she runs up the hill like a champ with just 10F above ambient IATs and she DOES NOT OVERHEAT but will get to a toasty 220F or so on 6% grade at 105F ambient. I am now running 12PSI boost and I don’t see EGTs above 1100F. Flat Cruising EGTs are down 200F from 800F to 600F and boost is down at flat cruising from 8PSI to 6PSI. Cruising water temps are down from 205F to about 195F.
I have yet to retard my ignition timing. That experiment comes next. Looks like getting at the two bolts between the IP and the motor will be a tough to get to. I will attempt to index the injection pumps position with a permanent marker or something prior to moving it in hopes that putting it back can be easier than fooling with the inspection tube business.
As most anyone who has attempted to add a turbo a 2h engine or read a little bit about it, the 2h likes to overheat as a result and this has been bothering me for some time. I went to great lengths to put my engine’s cooling system in tip top shape but to no avail. I suspected my intake air charge was the culprit. So I finally installed THIS input air sensor unit made by glow-shift a few weeks back. The new installed sensor was telling me that it was 100F outside, 10PSI boost, resulting in a 270F IAT (intake air temp)
This guy tunes Duramax diesel engines and has lots of great resources for learning about diesel tuning. I have referenced this article as I will be quoting pieces of it and don’t want to pass off the literature as my own. http://killerbeeperformance.com/download/tuning/Timing%20the%20Diesel.pdf
“Let’s assume an auto ignition temperature of 800 F for our diesel platform. With a fixed15 BTDC injection pulse, the ignition event begins at around 10 degrees BTDC, using a standard cetane delay value of 5 degrees. If the ignition event lasts for 40 degrees of rotation, then there is 10 degrees of negative torque and 30 degrees of positive torque, resulting in 20 degrees of net positive torque.”
“But what happens if the entry air-charge heats up and is now 240 F (270 in my case with just 10PSI of boost)? This is an actual example of the effect of higher load and induction heat soak while climbing a grade. If the timing event is unchanged then there is 13 degrees of negative torque, and 22 degrees of positive torque, net positive torque has been dramatically reduced to 9 degrees. Note the loss of 5 degrees of duration; this is due to the decrease in combustion time that results from the hotter environment. So to restore net torque to 20 degrees, injection timing must be retarded 5 degrees. (5 degrees has a 10 degree “net” effect, a little change goes a long way). If this adjustment is not made dynamically, then you experience an efficiency reduction and a noticeable loss of power on grade.”
“Now let’s assume that you are towing a grade in the desert southwest, at 7000 ft, and the outside temperature is 92 degrees with 6% humidity. Assume further that you are using a boost enhancing device (because you hate the high EGT’s that these conditions create). Soon the engine is heat soaked at 230 F ECT, and the air charge leaving the intercooler (IAT2) has crept up to 240 F. And you are now looking around asking “why is this truck continuing to lose power?” Now you know the answer. Besides having thin air at that temperature, the stock injection timing is now too advanced for the conditions, and too much of the fuel is trying to turn the motor in reverse. Now if you take away 5 degrees of timing advance, say from 12 BTDC to 7, using a handy switched EFILive tune, some of that torque and power will be instantly restored on grade. If we are burning the same quantity of fuel, then more power equals more speed, which equals better fuel economy. Another option is to remove boost. “WAIT!” you say. “Won’t that reduce my power also?” Not exactly. Since more boost creates faster ignition, and vice versa, if we remove some boost from an over-advanced scenario (by virtue of heat), it is like pulling timing.
It is my understanding that the 2h engine, sadly, has a static injection timing meaning; while it’s running its always injecting at the same crank angle and for the same duration no fancy computers to alter this on the fly.
I need to cool down my engine on the hot desert grades. With the above information my new working theory for overheating is this ...
Higher IATs, 270F in my case, advance my ignition timing just a measly 3 degrees and shorten the combustion duration by a whopping 10 degrees. “too much fuel is trying to turn my motor in reverse” This is where the overheating is happening not the added induction heat but what that heat can do to the combustion cycle which advances it and shortens it! Also very bad is advancing peak cylinder pressure towards TDC or BTDC which is where I completely suspect the 2h’s problems with boost are coming from NOT from additional intake air pressure but from extra intake air temp.
So I added an intercooler up front of the A/C and now my land cruier’s face is all ugly but she runs up the hill like a champ with just 10F above ambient IATs and she DOES NOT OVERHEAT but will get to a toasty 220F or so on 6% grade at 105F ambient. I am now running 12PSI boost and I don’t see EGTs above 1100F. Flat Cruising EGTs are down 200F from 800F to 600F and boost is down at flat cruising from 8PSI to 6PSI. Cruising water temps are down from 205F to about 195F.
I have yet to retard my ignition timing. That experiment comes next. Looks like getting at the two bolts between the IP and the motor will be a tough to get to. I will attempt to index the injection pumps position with a permanent marker or something prior to moving it in hopes that putting it back can be easier than fooling with the inspection tube business.
- Thread starter
- #55
I just started fooling with the injection timing yesterday.
Method:
1. C-clamp the fuel lever (EDIC ARM) closed
2. Put car in 4th gear
3. Jack rear of vehicle off ground
4. Pull injection pipe off cyl one (loosen 4 bolts on IP and the 5th one hiding between engine and IP (under IP)
5. Spin engine with pipe wrench from rear drive shaft
6. Index 18 BDTC and TDC with chalk on drive shaft to match pulley wheel up front so I can follow along from under the vehicle
7. Climb under car, spin the crank
8. go look see when fuel starts to spill everywhere out of the injection pump
9. clean up spill and repeat steps 7 thru 9
Results:
Timing was way earlier than 18BTDC as manual suggests (yikes!)
I retarded it back to 18BTDC as manual suggests
My system didn't allow measurement resolution to differentiate the marks at 18 vs 13 (as shown in manual)
This was a bit more (eyeball adjustment) than I wanted but if I had not found the timing to be soo extremely advanced I would have just left it alone
Tightened it all back up, fired the engine with no problem just like b4, checked for fuel leaks, took it for a test drive. Engine water temps behave the same (not full hill/grade tested yet). EGTs were a tad higher. Turbo cruse boost pressure was down a tad. Power appeared the same. A little puff of white smoke at idle, only viewable if you walk around back and look at the exhaust pipe "just so". NO visible smoke from rear view mirror at all, idle, WOT, or cruise.
Prior to this I would get a quick puff of black till the turbo spooled up, this isn't happening anymore, no black puff.
Method:
1. C-clamp the fuel lever (EDIC ARM) closed
2. Put car in 4th gear
3. Jack rear of vehicle off ground
4. Pull injection pipe off cyl one (loosen 4 bolts on IP and the 5th one hiding between engine and IP (under IP)
5. Spin engine with pipe wrench from rear drive shaft
6. Index 18 BDTC and TDC with chalk on drive shaft to match pulley wheel up front so I can follow along from under the vehicle
7. Climb under car, spin the crank
8. go look see when fuel starts to spill everywhere out of the injection pump
9. clean up spill and repeat steps 7 thru 9
Results:
Timing was way earlier than 18BTDC as manual suggests (yikes!)
I retarded it back to 18BTDC as manual suggests
My system didn't allow measurement resolution to differentiate the marks at 18 vs 13 (as shown in manual)
This was a bit more (eyeball adjustment) than I wanted but if I had not found the timing to be soo extremely advanced I would have just left it alone
Tightened it all back up, fired the engine with no problem just like b4, checked for fuel leaks, took it for a test drive. Engine water temps behave the same (not full hill/grade tested yet). EGTs were a tad higher. Turbo cruse boost pressure was down a tad. Power appeared the same. A little puff of white smoke at idle, only viewable if you walk around back and look at the exhaust pipe "just so". NO visible smoke from rear view mirror at all, idle, WOT, or cruise.
Prior to this I would get a quick puff of black till the turbo spooled up, this isn't happening anymore, no black puff.
- Thread starter
- #58
After following the guide in this procedure and driving around a bit, I am curious if it is even correct.
I tilted the injection pump towards the engine. However, the conditions I thought I was experiencing yesterday aren't as Ii had originally thought. The EGT is higher in comparison to the boost but overall lower. Engine runs hotter, and power drops of after about 2500 RPM. this is confusing.
Being that my attempt to retard the timing hasn't yielded the expected result. I have so many questions now.
1. where can I get / how do I make an inspection tube so I can gauge this more accurately
2. is the manual wrong about tilt direction?
3. every search I do on timing here results in discussion about shims, which I thought had more to do with break pressure and injection duration (which I don't understand whats happening anyways)
I tilted the injection pump towards the engine. However, the conditions I thought I was experiencing yesterday aren't as Ii had originally thought. The EGT is higher in comparison to the boost but overall lower. Engine runs hotter, and power drops of after about 2500 RPM. this is confusing.
Being that my attempt to retard the timing hasn't yielded the expected result. I have so many questions now.
1. where can I get / how do I make an inspection tube so I can gauge this more accurately
2. is the manual wrong about tilt direction?
3. every search I do on timing here results in discussion about shims, which I thought had more to do with break pressure and injection duration (which I don't understand whats happening anyways)
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- Thread starter
- #59
thanks for brining this to my attention. I will look into it. however, for now, I am in the middle of a tune, that will come first. (I still never figured out what that oil pump is even for). And I feed the turbo from this pump and I DO get considerable oil blowing into the intake.
2h engines have an automatic timer on the front of the injection pump drive gear, so they have advance, I would love to build a boost retard unit though, they do run pretty high compression
I was thinking one could possibly make a diapram assembly (much like the boost compensator im building in my turbo thread) that pulls the injection pump. would need to fab up lots of stuff to allow the pump to slide easily.........all sounds to hard lol
good work btw
I was thinking one could possibly make a diapram assembly (much like the boost compensator im building in my turbo thread) that pulls the injection pump. would need to fab up lots of stuff to allow the pump to slide easily.........all sounds to hard lol
good work btw
