A 40 Inch Dream and Request for Help

[jedgett]

I have loved my 2011 LC for 14 years but now it's time for one "tiny" change. Does anyone know of a shop in San Jose that can set me up on 40s by Friday without sacrificing safety, comfort, fuel mileage or reliability for under $10k? What equipment do I need to order?

Anyone? No … okay I'll make some concessions.

• Budget can be up to $60k (maybe $100k if Mark Levinson personally adds ventilated seats)
• Speaking of which, I’d be happy to trade the LC for a newer LX if it makes things easier. I don't know what Gene Simmons has to do with tire sizing, but y'all sure do have strong opinions on the matter
• It doesn't have to ride as well as stock but I wouldn't be starting with a 200 if I wanted to end up in a Wrangler
• The shop can be anywhere in North America but it really does have to be a high quality, trustworthy one-stop shop as I'm the guy who has to say ‘lefty-loosey’ out loud whenever I open the … door … of the car
• If there's a good reason not to go over 37s I will listen. However, if anyone suggests installing a lift in order to run 35s I’ll die inside a little
• I'll even consider alternate vehicle suggestions but let me warn you: I've already owned jeeps and G-wagens and they’re too small for my current needs. I used to drive a range rover into town nearly every week for repairs. I've lemon-lawed two Hummer EVs and returned a Rivian after four days because the lockers don’t lock. I even attended the local bronco recovery group after rolling a raptor. So far the 200 is just better for my needs.
• The gas mileage thing up there was a joke. I mean, technically the gas mileage still IS a joke. You know what I mean.
• It doesn't have to be done by this Friday.

Possibly relevant facts: mileage is 70% highway, 15% desert trails, 10% forest trails and 5% trips to the veterinarian. If you calculate travel in terms of hours rather than miles then the ratios are reversed. Cargo usually includes: a couple of people, a small fleet of large greyhounds (breed not bus) and an astonishing number of tire-related gizmos. The car has sliders and drawers but otherwise it is currently stock. I never get it wet. If there are five options for a part and one of them is anodized blue, I will buy the blue one no matter which you say is best.

FAQ: Why did you make the one millionth tire-size post? I guess because in 14 years I have tried every wheel and tire combination on the spreadsheet that doesn't require cutting metal bits and I'm sick of the skid plate cartel conspiring to keep us down. I feel like there has been enough experimentation that someone must have a straightforward guide to preventing the parts that hang down from contacting the things that stick up.

If through personal experience you are certain that this dream is any combination of impossible, ridiculous and/or stupid then I’m sure you’re sick of explaining the details but maybe you could just post like a winky-emoticon as a sign that I should wait another 14 years before asking this question again.

 

[clrussell]

Just call stellarbuilt and get your credit card out.

 

[indycole]

San Jose, CA?

Nothing around here comes to mind. Stellar Built in Sac would be my first call.

 

[TeCKis300]

I can't imagine a better rig than the 200-series for this. Comes with all the HD big bones, steering rack, quality, and comfort to achieve your goals.

@MTKID might be the only specialist to have taken a 200-series to 40s. With enough experience and iteration to guide you in the right direction. I think he may also be open jobs like this, but definitely reach out to him either way to consult if a 200-series on 40s will meet your expectations. Great guy and single handedly brought the 200-series community into the big tire era.

Stellarbuilt is another that comes to mind. They build some nice extreme rigs and I'm sure they'll do it for a price.

Another opportunity and strategy might be to use portals to get on 40s. 74weld in San Diego is coming out with 200-series/Tundra fitment portals very soon. This bypasses a lot of the complexity and labor of traditional body mods, labor, and gearing, to get into 40s, while enabling a new level of capability. I know Quinn personally and have done trail runs along with him in a Bronco on portals. He's an engineer at heart and absolute standup guy. I know his shop will do builds like this and might even be looking for a rig to prototype on. Lookup the 74weld rigs on youtube to get an idea. While spendy at $20k for the portals, this may be one of paths with least resistance, time, and cost to achieve your goals.

 

[CT3]

Stellar Built. And an LX might be a bit simpler, although if you’re actually trying to fit 40’s you’ll need plenty of work anyway so it shouldn’t matter.

 

[rlynch356]

ᐉ Portal axles for Toyota Land Cruiser 200 ≡ Portals for Toyota ≡ Shop Werewolftech

Portal axles for Toyota Land Cruiser 200 — Products and parts for jeeps ✅ Prices from the manufacturer ✅ A wide range of wheel gears and disks ✅ Quality assurance for each client ➨ Read more

werewolftech.com

 

[mark71]

ᐉ Portal axles for Toyota Land Cruiser 200 ≡ Portals for Toyota ≡ Shop Werewolftech

Portal axles for Toyota Land Cruiser 200 — Products and parts for jeeps ✅ Prices from the manufacturer ✅ A wide range of wheel gears and disks ✅ Quality assurance for each client ➨ Read more

werewolftech.com

No personal knowledge on going this big, but I wonder if the final concession to make will be reliability.

But sounds like you should do it anyway, both to follow your dream and let the rest of us learn from your experience.

 

[TeCKis300]

ᐉ Portal axles for Toyota Land Cruiser 200 ≡ Portals for Toyota ≡ Shop Werewolftech

Portal axles for Toyota Land Cruiser 200 — Products and parts for jeeps ✅ Prices from the manufacturer ✅ A wide range of wheel gears and disks ✅ Quality assurance for each client ➨ Read more

werewolftech.com

One of the big differentiators between Werewolf and 74Weld is weight. 74Weld utilizes more modern technologies and production methods which allows their systems to be almost half the weight of Werewolfs, ~50lbs/corner vs ~75-100lbs/corner respectively.

 

[TaishoCruiser]

One of the big differentiators between Werewolf and 74Weld is weight. 74Weld utilizes more modern technologies and production methods which allows their systems to be almost half the weight of Werewolfs, ~50lbs/corner vs ~75-100lbs/corner respectively.

I don't know the 74Weld crew personally, but in addition to weight, and optimizing between race portals (which provide some awesome R&D) and their more trail/daily setups, I like the integrated look of their mounting solutions. Especially on the front spindles (what I've seen on Broncos in person and Toyoas via the internet).

If I was going to do 40's on a Toyota the LC200 or maybe the GX550 would be my top two choices (starting with stout differentials, and at least for the 200 series, a solid rack).

As to portals versus a combination of a suspension and body lift... I might base that on the year ... 2016+ with the 8 speed, I think I could live with 40's and a mild re-gear. In a 2008-2015 ... I'd be tempted to do a slightly smaller and lighter 40 esque tire like the 39 inch BFG KM3 or K02.

 

[rlynch356]

Werewolf is a copy of the older generation of Tibus portals. You are most likely right, I personally have only ever seen the tibus defender portals, which are made with typical German precision

 

[MTKID]

I have loved my 2011 LC for 14 years but now it's time for one "tiny" change. Does anyone know of a shop in San Jose that can set me up on 40s by Friday without sacrificing safety, comfort, fuel mileage or reliability for under $10k? What equipment do I need to order?

Anyone? No … okay I'll make some concessions.

• Budget can be up to $60k (maybe $100k if Mark Levinson personally adds ventilated seats)
• Speaking of which, I’d be happy to trade the LC for a newer LX if it makes things easier. I don't know what Gene Simmons has to do with tire sizing, but y'all sure do have strong opinions on the matter
• It doesn't have to ride as well as stock but I wouldn't be starting with a 200 if I wanted to end up in a Wrangler
• The shop can be anywhere in North America but it really does have to be a high quality, trustworthy one-stop shop as I'm the guy who has to say ‘lefty-loosey’ out loud whenever I open the … door … of the car
• If there's a good reason not to go over 37s I will listen. However, if anyone suggests installing a lift in order to run 35s I’ll die inside a little
• I'll even consider alternate vehicle suggestions but let me warn you: I've already owned jeeps and G-wagens and they’re too small for my current needs. I used to drive a range rover into town nearly every week for repairs. I've lemon-lawed two Hummer EVs and returned a Rivian after four days because the lockers don’t lock. I even attended the local bronco recovery group after rolling a raptor. So far the 200 is just better for my needs.
• The gas mileage thing up there was a joke. I mean, technically the gas mileage still IS a joke. You know what I mean.
• It doesn't have to be done by this Friday.

Possibly relevant facts: mileage is 70% highway, 15% desert trails, 10% forest trails and 5% trips to the veterinarian. If you calculate travel in terms of hours rather than miles then the ratios are reversed. Cargo usually includes: a couple of people, a small fleet of large greyhounds (breed not bus) and an astonishing number of tire-related gizmos. The car has sliders and drawers but otherwise it is currently stock. I never get it wet. If there are five options for a part and one of them is anodized blue, I will buy the blue one no matter which you say is best.

FAQ: Why did you make the one millionth tire-size post? I guess because in 14 years I have tried every wheel and tire combination on the spreadsheet that doesn't require cutting metal bits and I'm sick of the skid plate cartel conspiring to keep us down. I feel like there has been enough experimentation that someone must have a straightforward guide to preventing the parts that hang down from contacting the things that stick up.

If through personal experience you are certain that this dream is any combination of impossible, ridiculous and/or stupid then I’m sure you’re sick of explaining the details but maybe you could just post like a winky-emoticon as a sign that I should wait another 14 years before asking this question again.

Here is my build thread, if that helps you understand what I did to get onto 40’s…

Builds - MTKID's LX on 40's @tiny_the_200 - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/mtkids-lx-on-40s-tiny_the_200.1292457/

If I was doing this for someone else, there are a few things I would do differently and take more time on to improve. I do feel like the best way to help the IFS front end to survive with 40’s is to keep the CV angles low, but admittedly, a stronger solution would be a SAS. I don’t personally wheel super hard or aggressively but we do enjoy deep snow runs up here in Montana. I also feel a relatively lightweight wheel/tire combo is a good idea to reduce the strain as much as possible.

I think you’ll need to remove the KDSS in the front to fit 40’s. One other very aggressive driver has removed both of his swaybars when he went to 37x13.5’s. I removed just my front swaybar and feel like my LX still handles well on-road (with AHC making up for it a little), but much better off-road.

Mileage after swapping to 4.88’s has been surprisingly good for me. Again, I’m not heavy on the throttle around town.

Your budget seems reasonable, even for a high quality shop like Stellar Built. I think Dmitiry is #1 in line for the first 74Weld 200 series portals (only unfortunate thing I’m aware of is they are trying to convert all of us 5x150 bolt pattern users to the 6x and sell their new wheels).

I’m currently trying to move my drivetrain up to create a smooth belly. Just another small improvement that, when combined with the 40’s, should create a little better breakover.

Hope you accomplish your goals, and I’m happy to answer any questions about my rig to help you. I love seeing this platform pushed a little further

Micah

 

[jedgett]

Wow, thanks for all the responses! That was a lot more positive than I expected.

I talked to @MTKID and Stellar Built and they have quite different approaches and recommendations. I'm now thinking about 1) a Stellar Built relatively straightforward (expensive) path to 37s on the current 2011 LC or 2) an @MTKID built longer (literally) more experimental journey towards 40s on a 2016+ LX.

I really appreciate the out-of-the-box suggestions to look at portal axles. My first instinct is that adding all that unsprung weight will kill highway ride quality (I'm 200 miles from the nearest decent trails) but then I succumbed to the marketing fluff on the 74Weld website and inquired about becoming a guinea pig. If there's anyone near San Jose, CA willing to give me a ride in any vehicle with portals I'd love to get an idea of what I'd be getting myself into.

@TaishoCruiser can you tell me more about the relationship between new/old, 40/40-ish, gearing and portals? I'm not following your reasoning but I get the sense that you're on to something important about weight which I don't quite grasp.

Also more opinions are always welcome and may all your dreams come true!

 

[xeuxaz]

Subscribed

 

[TaishoCruiser]

I have loved my 2011 LC for 14 years but now it's time for one "tiny" change. Does anyone know of a shop in San Jose that can set me up on 40s by Friday without sacrificing safety, comfort, fuel mileage or reliability for under $10k? What equipment do I need to order?

Anyone? No … okay I'll make some concessions.

• Budget can be up to $60k (maybe $100k if Mark Levinson personally adds ventilated seats)
• Speaking of which, I’d be happy to trade the LC for a newer LX if it makes things easier. I don't know what Gene Simmons has to do with tire sizing, but y'all sure do have strong opinions on the matter
• It doesn't have to ride as well as stock but I wouldn't be starting with a 200 if I wanted to end up in a Wrangler
• The shop can be anywhere in North America but it really does have to be a high quality, trustworthy one-stop shop as I'm the guy who has to say ‘lefty-loosey’ out loud whenever I open the … door … of the car
• If there's a good reason not to go over 37s I will listen. However, if anyone suggests installing a lift in order to run 35s I’ll die inside a little
• I'll even consider alternate vehicle suggestions but let me warn you: I've already owned jeeps and G-wagens and they’re too small for my current needs. I used to drive a range rover into town nearly every week for repairs. I've lemon-lawed two Hummer EVs and returned a Rivian after four days because the lockers don’t lock. I even attended the local bronco recovery group after rolling a raptor. So far the 200 is just better for my needs.
• The gas mileage thing up there was a joke. I mean, technically the gas mileage still IS a joke. You know what I mean.
• It doesn't have to be done by this Friday.

Possibly relevant facts: mileage is 70% highway, 15% desert trails, 10% forest trails and 5% trips to the veterinarian. If you calculate travel in terms of hours rather than miles then the ratios are reversed. Cargo usually includes: a couple of people, a small fleet of large greyhounds (breed not bus) and an astonishing number of tire-related gizmos. The car has sliders and drawers but otherwise it is currently stock. I never get it wet. If there are five options for a part and one of them is anodized blue, I will buy the blue one no matter which you say is best.

FAQ: Why did you make the one millionth tire-size post? I guess because in 14 years I have tried every wheel and tire combination on the spreadsheet that doesn't require cutting metal bits and I'm sick of the skid plate cartel conspiring to keep us down. I feel like there has been enough experimentation that someone must have a straightforward guide to preventing the parts that hang down from contacting the things that stick up.

If through personal experience you are certain that this dream is any combination of impossible, ridiculous and/or stupid then I’m sure you’re sick of explaining the details but maybe you could just post like a winky-emoticon as a sign that I should wait another 14 years before asking this question again.

Wow, thanks for all the responses! That was a lot more positive than I expected.

I talked to @MTKID and Stellar Built and they have quite different approaches and recommendations. I'm now thinking about 1) a Stellar Built relatively straightforward (expensive) path to 37s on the current 2011 LC or 2) an @MTKID built longer (literally) more experimental journey towards 40s on a 2016+ LX.

I really appreciate the out-of-the-box suggestions to look at portal axles. My first instinct is that adding all that unsprung weight will kill highway ride quality (I'm 200 miles from the nearest decent trails) but then I succumbed to the marketing fluff on the 74Weld website and inquired about becoming a guinea pig. If there's anyone near San Jose, CA willing to give me a ride in any vehicle with portals I'd love to get an idea of what I'd be getting myself into.

@TaishoCruiser can you tell me more about the relationship between new/old, 40/40-ish, gearing and portals? I'm not following your reasoning but I get the sense that you're on to something important about weight which I don't quite grasp.

Also more opinions are always welcome and may all your dreams come true!

Glad you made some progress and please share as you chart your path!

Sorry for the half formed thought earlier as I had more points typed out but had to hop off. Where I was going with it all...

Gearing, tire diameter, and tire weight - In the 2016+ LC200 you have a much lower first gear in the transmission so you can run larger tires without re-gearing the diffs, and when / if you do regear, you can get lower than you can in the 6 speed, and along with the highway passing power that brings, you get a better crawl ratio. Where my thinking about weight comes in... I'd like to keep the rotational weight down regardless (better handling, fewer broken parts), but on the 2008-2015, that would be an even bigger deal to me because of the limitations on gearing. You can't go deeper than 5.29 and there are no easy options, short of an Atlas which I don't know if anyone has done in the LC200, to get a lower gear in the transfer case.

@TeCKis300 built an awesome resource here - LC200 Series Gearing Reference

Why would I think about portals and tire size differently based on the transmission - if I was going to build a 2008-2015 I'd lean towards trying portals, not only because of the clearance and reduced stress upstream, but also because the crawl ration looks better to me and I like to have gear to help me navigate obstacles as opposed to using more of the skinny pedal and more brakes.

Portals would still bring some great benefits to the 2016+. And so would a lighter tire like the K02 in a 39. But the gearing advantage that portals bring wouldn't be as big of a deal to me in the 2016+ because of the lower gearing in the transmission.

The only other point I'll throw out, and would welcome thoughts from others on... if you're going to do a lot more desert runs than crawling, I'm not sure how portals feel in the desert versus a good long travel setup thinkin about the extra height and unsprung weight. EDIT to remove some pondering where @TeCKis300 has some more data to share below.

Good luck and keep the details and ideas coming!

 

[TeCKis300]

Some more info to throw into the calculus of portals. I've asked Quinn a lot of these same questions.

Gearing​

74weld portals internally gear down to accommodate larger tires by a 1.22 factor. So a 6-speed 200-series with 3.9 diffs gets equivalent to 4.76 gearing with the portals. Enough to turn 38s with about stock gearing so no re-gearing of stock diff necessary. For 40s, could easily source OEM 4.1s or 4.3 diffs. The 8-speed would be great too, with deeper crawl gears for the ultimate 200-series. A note on diffs is that numerically larger diffs have small teeth is inherently less robust (though a failure hasn't ever really been reported).

Unsprung Weight​

It may be close to a wash. Tires themselves have to be in the equation of unsprung weight. While the portals add weight, it's not as much as it would seem because the stock cast steel knuckle gets replaced with high grade aluminum machined assembly. They are still iterating and may go for a forged solution in the future. The opportunity for portals is that you can still get better than 40" tire clearance with a more modest tire like a 37/38". Rotational mass of larger tires will favor the portal/smaller tire. Braking will be much better on the smaller tire.

Suspension Travel​

This may be an area where the portal may have an advantage to still maximize available clearance for travel. Once into a 38-40+ tire, limiting uptravel is very real unless cutting or body lifting aggressively.

 

[tbisaacs]

The really short gear oil change intervals on these portals to me would make them an insane pain on a rig that you are daily driving and driving to long trips.

 

[TaishoCruiser]

Some more info to throw into the calculus of portals. I've asked Quinn a lot of these same questions.

Gearing​

74weld portals internally gear down to accommodate larger tires by a 1.22 factor. So a 6-speed 200-series with 3.9 diffs gets equivalent to 4.76 gearing with the portals. Enough to turn 38s with about stock gearing so no re-gearing of stock diff necessary. For 40s, could easily source OEM 4.1s or 4.3 diffs. The 8-speed would be great too, with deeper crawl gears for the ultimate 200-series. A note on diffs is that numerically larger diffs have small teeth is inherently less robust (though a failure hasn't ever really been reported).

Unsprung Weight​

It may be close to a wash. Tires themselves have to be in the equation of unsprung weight. While the portals add weight, it's not as much as it would seem because the stock cast steel knuckle gets replaced with high grade aluminum machined assembly. They are still iterating and may go for a forged solution in the future. The opportunity for portals is that you can still get better than 40" tire clearance with a more modest tire like a 37/38". Rotational mass of larger tires will favor the portal/smaller tire. Braking will be much better on the smaller tire.

Suspension Travel​

This may be an area where the portal may have an advantage to still maximize available clearance for travel. Once into a 38-40+ tire, limiting uptravel is very real unless cutting or body lifting aggressively.

Now using the portals to get the same or more clearance as 40's is cheating - we are talking about the best path to 40's 'because race car' . I kid, I kid.

Jokes aside though, you make an awesome point about being able to get great clearance and manage sprung and rotational weight with a 37/38 and portals versus a 39/40. As for travel, since I'm playing around in a Braptor I have to say I am a huge fan of uptravel at the moment. After this my next LC200 may require some significant fender work when I come back to the fold.

 

[nwfl4runner]

Would there be concerns with 40s, portals, and IFS that you’re raising COG without the benefit of a solid front? Portals are 4” lift, 40s are 4” or so over stock. 8” of lift on an IFS feels a bit wild, especially offroad where these things don’t really flex that nicely up front. It’s a thing, just not sure it’s the right thing.

 

[MTKID]

Would there be concerns with 40s, portals, and IFS that you’re raising COG without the benefit of a solid front? Portals are 4” lift, 40s are 4” or so over stock. 8” of lift on an IFS feels a bit wild, especially offroad where these things don’t really flex that nicely up front. It’s a thing, just not sure it’s the right thing.

I look at the portals as being a great thing to keep the CV’s at a happy angle & provide a perfect width/clearance off the frame for a 40” tire w/o the need for the Tundra front suspension width. So I picture this putting someone where I sit in AHC High but with the CV’s still in a relatively flat orientation and with softer/better droop and suspension travel (at least compared to AHC high pressures) available. If I was going to consider portals, which I like the idea of almost as much as a SAS, I’d go back to stock LCA, instead of Tundra width to keep the overall track width somewhat manageable.

There is no doubt you’d be raising your COG quite a bit doing this though.

One minor thing in the back of my mind about raising my drivetrain 1-1.25” is that the oil pan will come up that far and possibly allow a SAS to sit a little lower without interfering. Insert always thinking meme

 

[TeCKis300]

The portals add 3.5" width per side. No doubt committing to a wider track width. Which should account for the taller profile and add back stability. Yes, I'd agree it would be a better pairing with stock control arms. Even though the portals make things wider, it does maintain scrub radius to preserve good geometry.

My tiny LX on 35s next to his Portal'd Bronco IIRC on 38s.

74Weld made a good tech video that talks at length about many of these concerns.