- Thread starter
- #1,261
At least this doesn't keep me from running my fuel lines. I'm going hard line along the frame with hoses from line to tank and engine.
Builds 86 Xtra Cab Build (4Wheelunderground 3 link front, 4 link rear and 3.4 swap) (6 Viewers)
- Thread starter aztoyman
- Start date
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IMO no
You don’t need to change anything just add the gussets as long as the run down the front back sides of the base and are welded.
The only need to go up the straps enough that they don’t interfere with the bed in the front and they don’t block the hardware maybe 2/3 of the way up
- Thread starter
- #1,263
OK, changing up the subject a bit and I need some recommendations. Since I'm figuring out fuel line routing and component location in the engine compartment, I need to consider my battery cable run from the new location below the cab.
I think as far as routing, I was thinking max protection would be on top the frame rail and up the driver side. The passenger side is crowded with brake and fuel lines. Plus the battery was mounted driver side since the 3.4 swap. Here's where I need some input. I thought I should just run the cables to where the battery posts WERE basically. So I could reconnect things as if the battery was still there. I just ran a fat extension cord for mockup and it is 13 1/2' run per cable.
IDK if I should just use some insulated high amp posts (1/2" stud) ? Or if I should put some kind of terminal board/ load center component??
My biggest question is cable size. The Warn 8274 I have will have the 9.5 XP motor. Warn specs show 623 amps @10K# pull. That's 4/0 cable territory. IDK what "normal" loads before stalling the winch is. I don't hold the winch in a stall. I will run a disconnect for the winch itself.
I was looking at some fine strand (4949/36) 2/0 super flexible welding cable. The ampacity chart shows 400 amps @ 50 feet. Is this sufficient?
I was also thinking of putting a disconnect within reach on the ground close to the battery. That's were I'm used to seeing them on Cat equipment I'm familiar with.
Here's the question where a lot of arguments start on many forums. Ground cable all the way forward, same as positive cable or is it OK to put same gauge ground cable to frame? I've seen electrical engineers argue this on the HAMB. My only experience is most Cat machines I ever worked on had the battery negative to the master switch (near the battery box) and direct to the frame. The breaker panels or boxes in or near the cab had a large ground to the frame to a buss bar.
I don't have a lot of accessories other than relays for lights so I don't need a huge panel under the hood. I may have a compressor mounted behind the axle somewhere. I've always used a portable so far.
I think as far as routing, I was thinking max protection would be on top the frame rail and up the driver side. The passenger side is crowded with brake and fuel lines. Plus the battery was mounted driver side since the 3.4 swap. Here's where I need some input. I thought I should just run the cables to where the battery posts WERE basically. So I could reconnect things as if the battery was still there. I just ran a fat extension cord for mockup and it is 13 1/2' run per cable.
IDK if I should just use some insulated high amp posts (1/2" stud) ? Or if I should put some kind of terminal board/ load center component??
My biggest question is cable size. The Warn 8274 I have will have the 9.5 XP motor. Warn specs show 623 amps @10K# pull. That's 4/0 cable territory. IDK what "normal" loads before stalling the winch is. I don't hold the winch in a stall. I will run a disconnect for the winch itself.
I was looking at some fine strand (4949/36) 2/0 super flexible welding cable. The ampacity chart shows 400 amps @ 50 feet. Is this sufficient?
I was also thinking of putting a disconnect within reach on the ground close to the battery. That's were I'm used to seeing them on Cat equipment I'm familiar with.
Here's the question where a lot of arguments start on many forums. Ground cable all the way forward, same as positive cable or is it OK to put same gauge ground cable to frame? I've seen electrical engineers argue this on the HAMB. My only experience is most Cat machines I ever worked on had the battery negative to the master switch (near the battery box) and direct to the frame. The breaker panels or boxes in or near the cab had a large ground to the frame to a buss bar.
I don't have a lot of accessories other than relays for lights so I don't need a huge panel under the hood. I may have a compressor mounted behind the axle somewhere. I've always used a portable so far.
- Thread starter
- #1,264
battery is stock position.
wire is 2ga.
my rear winch wires are p-clamped in insulated clamps.
both winches tied to mechanical cutoff switch
been watching some of the hot rod winch vids from down unda'.
the 24v overpower thing is pretty awesome.
talk about big cables.
wire is 2ga.
my rear winch wires are p-clamped in insulated clamps.
both winches tied to mechanical cutoff switch
been watching some of the hot rod winch vids from down unda'.
the 24v overpower thing is pretty awesome.
talk about big cables.
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ntsqd
technerd
Only one battery as I recall, so that simplifies things a bit.
I been using Carol brand welding cable exclusively in battery cables. Cable lugs crimped (only) with a Greenlee hex die crimper (that a Licensed Electrician friend gave me on long term loan). Covered with Ancor adhesive lined heat-shrink. Been making them this way for the last 15+ years without any problems.
Welding cable is a far better conductor than a welded steel frame. I've a deep dive observation about why, but I'll leave it out for now. IME over the last too many decades to think about those vehicles with remote battery's that had persistent hard starting problems all were grounded near the battery. Those that I've built since making that observation have all been grounded at or near the OEM grounding location (usually the engine block) and haven't had that problem. Old school starter motors vs. PMGR starters are also a factor in this.
If you want to put some isolated posts near where the battery used to live so as to disturb the OEM wiring as little as possible I would use one of these Blue Sea Systems Dual Isolated Battery Post. I used one of these to tap into a 6 ga. pair of camper charging cables for the OBA compressor on our CTD/Camper. That brings up a topic worth mentioning. Charging the battery from the alternator and the attendant voltage drop from the long(er) total circuit length. If you want less than 3% voltage drop (I do) then the charging cables can get quite big, way bigger than just the current would require. Since you're sizing for winch power I doubt that this aspect will be the dominate cable sizing factor, but if you didn't have the winch it easily could be. There's downsides to going ridiculously big, but a bonus of slightly oversize cables is that the starter motor sees less voltage drop, so it also performs better.
I use manual marine battery switches when switching high current cables. They're not as convenient as a contactor, but I don't mind for these uses. I use one of these amazon link to turn the Warn M8 on Snowball on and off, but it's current rating isn't quite high enough for your winch. So I'd use one of these instead: amazon link, which is rated for 600A.
If you really want a remote controlled contactor for "arming" the winch I'd suggest using a pair of the 350A rated Blue Sea Systems L series contactors bus-barred in parallel, or possibly their equal from Rincon Power if you can find a retailer. Those are hermetically sealed contactors that are rated to switch under full load roughly 10,000 times minimum, so they are not likely to ever cause a problem. It happens that I know way too much about those particular contactors......
A battery kill switch in the ground cable is my preference too. Hella makes a removable key kill switch rated for 2500A intermittent. I like that these have a removable 'key' adding a layer of anti-theft security. They make a physically smaller switch with a removable key, but it's ratings aren't as high. Be careful of those too, they're commonly cloned in chinesium. When I put one of this type of battery switch in the Valiant as an anti-theft device I put a 2.5A ATO fuse across the switch terminals. That allowed the various computer memories to stay live with the switch off, but any significant draw, even just the starter solenoid, would pop that fuse.
I been using Carol brand welding cable exclusively in battery cables. Cable lugs crimped (only) with a Greenlee hex die crimper (that a Licensed Electrician friend gave me on long term loan). Covered with Ancor adhesive lined heat-shrink. Been making them this way for the last 15+ years without any problems.
Welding cable is a far better conductor than a welded steel frame. I've a deep dive observation about why, but I'll leave it out for now. IME over the last too many decades to think about those vehicles with remote battery's that had persistent hard starting problems all were grounded near the battery. Those that I've built since making that observation have all been grounded at or near the OEM grounding location (usually the engine block) and haven't had that problem. Old school starter motors vs. PMGR starters are also a factor in this.
If you want to put some isolated posts near where the battery used to live so as to disturb the OEM wiring as little as possible I would use one of these Blue Sea Systems Dual Isolated Battery Post. I used one of these to tap into a 6 ga. pair of camper charging cables for the OBA compressor on our CTD/Camper. That brings up a topic worth mentioning. Charging the battery from the alternator and the attendant voltage drop from the long(er) total circuit length. If you want less than 3% voltage drop (I do) then the charging cables can get quite big, way bigger than just the current would require. Since you're sizing for winch power I doubt that this aspect will be the dominate cable sizing factor, but if you didn't have the winch it easily could be. There's downsides to going ridiculously big, but a bonus of slightly oversize cables is that the starter motor sees less voltage drop, so it also performs better.
I use manual marine battery switches when switching high current cables. They're not as convenient as a contactor, but I don't mind for these uses. I use one of these amazon link to turn the Warn M8 on Snowball on and off, but it's current rating isn't quite high enough for your winch. So I'd use one of these instead: amazon link, which is rated for 600A.
If you really want a remote controlled contactor for "arming" the winch I'd suggest using a pair of the 350A rated Blue Sea Systems L series contactors bus-barred in parallel, or possibly their equal from Rincon Power if you can find a retailer. Those are hermetically sealed contactors that are rated to switch under full load roughly 10,000 times minimum, so they are not likely to ever cause a problem. It happens that I know way too much about those particular contactors......
A battery kill switch in the ground cable is my preference too. Hella makes a removable key kill switch rated for 2500A intermittent. I like that these have a removable 'key' adding a layer of anti-theft security. They make a physically smaller switch with a removable key, but it's ratings aren't as high. Be careful of those too, they're commonly cloned in chinesium. When I put one of this type of battery switch in the Valiant as an anti-theft device I put a 2.5A ATO fuse across the switch terminals. That allowed the various computer memories to stay live with the switch off, but any significant draw, even just the starter solenoid, would pop that fuse.
- Thread starter
- #1,269
Thanks for the info and links. I actually have that 600 amp manual switch in my cart. These were the posts I had saved in my cart. I didn't see the one you linked. Amazon.com - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BBDHZ2XH/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_10?smid=A2GNZBM8JSG24J&psc=1
I thought about connecting the positive cable from the battery to that switch in the original battery location under the hood. Then out to the winch as expected but, also using the battery side post of that switch to connect the original positive post wires. I think it's the alt, starter and main power. I can up the wire gauge on the alt and starter if needed. My thought is using the switch post eliminates extra connection points. It does take away the jump start connection though. Thoughts on this?
I don't really need the convenience of remotely arming the winch. I was wondering if it would be a good emergency disconnect close to the battery and within reach inside the cab. Or maybe a high amp fuse? I don't want it to blow in the middle of a winch pull but I also don't want 15 feet of 2/0 cable with a direct short unprotected. Especially if I'm upside down.
Any opinions on running 2/0 between the battery and the posts under the hood? Big enough for the 13-15 ft. run? The ampacity chart only lists 400 amps at 50 feet. Nothing shorter. It's got close to 5000 strands of pure copper.
Looking at these terminals. Anything better out there? Amazon.com - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LLWKXV6/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=A2GNZBM8JSG24J&psc=1
The only crimper I have is a Temco hit with a hammer type. I can see if the cable supplier offers crimped on lugs.
I thought about connecting the positive cable from the battery to that switch in the original battery location under the hood. Then out to the winch as expected but, also using the battery side post of that switch to connect the original positive post wires. I think it's the alt, starter and main power. I can up the wire gauge on the alt and starter if needed. My thought is using the switch post eliminates extra connection points. It does take away the jump start connection though. Thoughts on this?
I don't really need the convenience of remotely arming the winch. I was wondering if it would be a good emergency disconnect close to the battery and within reach inside the cab. Or maybe a high amp fuse? I don't want it to blow in the middle of a winch pull but I also don't want 15 feet of 2/0 cable with a direct short unprotected. Especially if I'm upside down.
Any opinions on running 2/0 between the battery and the posts under the hood? Big enough for the 13-15 ft. run? The ampacity chart only lists 400 amps at 50 feet. Nothing shorter. It's got close to 5000 strands of pure copper.
Looking at these terminals. Anything better out there? Amazon.com - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LLWKXV6/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=A2GNZBM8JSG24J&psc=1
The only crimper I have is a Temco hit with a hammer type. I can see if the cable supplier offers crimped on lugs.
I ran 2/0 to winch/starter in my truck from battery in bed.
I don't think I'd put the batter lines on TOP of the frame rails... Just in the odd case you need to service them and have fingers larger than a new born. I HATE that the tacoma's have a plastic push-in holder for the front O2 sensor... right on top of the derned frame... only about 1" to work with...
I don't think I'd put the batter lines on TOP of the frame rails... Just in the odd case you need to service them and have fingers larger than a new born. I HATE that the tacoma's have a plastic push-in holder for the front O2 sensor... right on top of the derned frame... only about 1" to work with...
ntsqd
technerd
There's something to be said for leaving the OEM wiring alone. Whatever isolated studs you use, put them where the OEM wiring will reach them. Then bring the battery cables up to them. IF it is convenient to do so, could use the batt+ stud on the winch switch as that isolated stud. That would eliminate one connection and could tidy up the area.
I agree with bkg, I wouldn't put the cables on top of the frame unless you're running at least a little body lift. Just too tight for easy access; and in the worst case scenario it would be easy to pinched there. I usually run them on the inside of the frame in Adel type ('p') clamps.
I have run across brass SAE battery terminals, but I'm blanking on where. And no idea if they're really better or not. I've been using exactly those battery terminals for maybe 5 years and have yet to have any trouble with them.
I use these charts etc. for my sizing of wires: Resources - https://www.ancorproducts.com/en/Resources The thing that I keep in mind about battery cables is that the current doesn't flow at those high levels for very long and those charts etc. are built around constant duty. Can push much more current than the rating through a cable if it doesn't last very long. Kind of like that Hella battery kill switch that I linked above. It is rated for 100A continuous service, but is safe for 2500A in 10 seconds or less. That's a pretty extreme difference, for most things I wouldn't have a problem with double the rating if the duration is short. Using that switch, it's rated for 600A over a max of 2 minutes. Rarely ever crank a starter motor that long continuously. Might run a winch motor that long continuously, but I'm doubting that it would be entirely at full load.
I agree with bkg, I wouldn't put the cables on top of the frame unless you're running at least a little body lift. Just too tight for easy access; and in the worst case scenario it would be easy to pinched there. I usually run them on the inside of the frame in Adel type ('p') clamps.
I have run across brass SAE battery terminals, but I'm blanking on where. And no idea if they're really better or not. I've been using exactly those battery terminals for maybe 5 years and have yet to have any trouble with them.
I use these charts etc. for my sizing of wires: Resources - https://www.ancorproducts.com/en/Resources The thing that I keep in mind about battery cables is that the current doesn't flow at those high levels for very long and those charts etc. are built around constant duty. Can push much more current than the rating through a cable if it doesn't last very long. Kind of like that Hella battery kill switch that I linked above. It is rated for 100A continuous service, but is safe for 2500A in 10 seconds or less. That's a pretty extreme difference, for most things I wouldn't have a problem with double the rating if the duration is short. Using that switch, it's rated for 600A over a max of 2 minutes. Rarely ever crank a starter motor that long continuously. Might run a winch motor that long continuously, but I'm doubting that it would be entirely at full load.
There’s a reason why Warn’s winch wiring diagram doesn’t have a cut off switch in it.
It has you run the wires directly to the battery.
I know it’s a huge debate and others will jump in and say why you need a switch.
It’s the first time that it ever happened, but on my last trip to Fordyce There was a lot of mega winching, and for long periods of time, full length pulls. I was happy not to have a cut off switch to my winch.
It’s been that way since I installed the winch almost a decade ago.
I feel like it’s just like the starter motor. No cut off switch from the factory.
I’ll get my flame suit ready
It has you run the wires directly to the battery.
I know it’s a huge debate and others will jump in and say why you need a switch.
It’s the first time that it ever happened, but on my last trip to Fordyce There was a lot of mega winching, and for long periods of time, full length pulls. I was happy not to have a cut off switch to my winch.
It’s been that way since I installed the winch almost a decade ago.
I feel like it’s just like the starter motor. No cut off switch from the factory.
I’ll get my flame suit ready
ntsqd
technerd
I have a cut-off switch on the winch supply just so that I have one less heavy gauge battery hot cable on the truck until I need it. I don't have visions of turning off a run-a-way winch with it or some other equally bizarre calamity. It is another thing to fail, but if I really need the winch and it has failed I can wire around it fairly fast.
- Thread starter
- #1,274
Thanks all for the feedback. I don't flame anyone whether I agree or not. Everybody has reasons for doing what they do.
I never had a switch on my winch either. I did have a solenoid ( original 1970's era 8274) stick ONCE and I'm glad I had a 1/2" wing nut holding the cable to the battery terminal. I had steel cable at the time. Pretty good adrenalin rush.
I know it's relatively tight between the frame and cab but it might be my best option. My passenger inner frame rail is where 3 fuel lines and 2 brake lines are running. Plus the clutch slave line drops in the same area near the firewall. The A/C lines have to work around the shock tower in the same area and the engine harness squeeze's through right there.
The exhaust is really close to the driver side inner frame rail so all I have is on top. I'll see exactly how much room and if I can maybe heat wrap the exhaust and put heat sheath on the cable.
IDK if I'd want it running through the cab or hanging under the cab floor.
It would fit inside the frame rail but IDK about that either.
I tried to make the mods on my fuel tank bracket today but it was one thing after another pulling me off the job. I did decide to mod it instead of making a different one. I can still do that regardless. I did get one end done and partially welded. Hopefully I get left alone tomorrow.
I never had a switch on my winch either. I did have a solenoid ( original 1970's era 8274) stick ONCE and I'm glad I had a 1/2" wing nut holding the cable to the battery terminal. I had steel cable at the time. Pretty good adrenalin rush.
I know it's relatively tight between the frame and cab but it might be my best option. My passenger inner frame rail is where 3 fuel lines and 2 brake lines are running. Plus the clutch slave line drops in the same area near the firewall. The A/C lines have to work around the shock tower in the same area and the engine harness squeeze's through right there.
The exhaust is really close to the driver side inner frame rail so all I have is on top. I'll see exactly how much room and if I can maybe heat wrap the exhaust and put heat sheath on the cable.
IDK if I'd want it running through the cab or hanging under the cab floor.
It would fit inside the frame rail but IDK about that either.
I tried to make the mods on my fuel tank bracket today but it was one thing after another pulling me off the job. I did decide to mod it instead of making a different one. I can still do that regardless. I did get one end done and partially welded. Hopefully I get left alone tomorrow.
- Thread starter
- #1,275
I've been getting rained out as far as cutting, grinding and welding. So I worked on finding stuff to do under the hood.
I used some Honda ATV rubber mounts I had for the evap canister. I also noticed that the heater valve was going to rub on the brake lines so I had to adjust the bends a bit.
Then I looked for a way to mount my steering reservoir. I raised the engine a little in this truck and I had lowered the engine in the 88. No way I can clear the hood and have a good run to the pump inlet.
I think the shortest PSC remote reservoir would work. It's almost the same height as the one I have but the supply connection is on the bottom "side" compared to mine which is straight down. Shows out of stock online but I just got an email back from them saying they have them in stock and to call. Website is messed up.
I think I have a way to mount my steering cooler without having to pull the radiator so I'll post up if that works out. I'm going to cut my fan shroud in half and make it an upper and lower section too. Makes it WAY easier to R&I the fan, belts and radiator. I did it on two other trucks I had and it really makes a difference.
Just one pic.
I used some Honda ATV rubber mounts I had for the evap canister. I also noticed that the heater valve was going to rub on the brake lines so I had to adjust the bends a bit.
Then I looked for a way to mount my steering reservoir. I raised the engine a little in this truck and I had lowered the engine in the 88. No way I can clear the hood and have a good run to the pump inlet.
I think the shortest PSC remote reservoir would work. It's almost the same height as the one I have but the supply connection is on the bottom "side" compared to mine which is straight down. Shows out of stock online but I just got an email back from them saying they have them in stock and to call. Website is messed up.
I think I have a way to mount my steering cooler without having to pull the radiator so I'll post up if that works out. I'm going to cut my fan shroud in half and make it an upper and lower section too. Makes it WAY easier to R&I the fan, belts and radiator. I did it on two other trucks I had and it really makes a difference.
Just one pic.
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ntsqd
technerd
I went with the 4" Lee PS remote reservoir on the Wagoneer. Anything taller wouldn't fit where I wanted to put it. Has about the same fluid volume as the GM remote reservoirs used on some of their 1 ton truck PS systems. Similar to this, but I had an H-B return fitting added: 3" x 4" Nascar Steering Reservoir -10AN Male Bottom Outlet Fitting -6AN Male Return Fitting - https://leepowersteering.com/collections/reservoirs/products/stg-nascar-reservoir
I used their std 6" reservoir on the FSB.
I used their std 6" reservoir on the FSB.
- Thread starter
- #1,278
My current reservoir is a cheap generic version of that Nascar one. Mine is over 7" tall and with the fitting on the bottom it takes up even more vertical space. That shorter one would probably fit.
I think the PSC version is a better overall fit for me with the feed port out the side. This Holley would work well I think. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BHFD1NLF/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=A1VO7W8VYUVWOH&psc=1
I could probably connect direct to the pump with this. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0040B4MMC/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A1GC2PJ2W4TJYR&psc=1 With additional support of a bracket.
I'm leaning toward the PSC but I haven't made up my mind yet. Thanks for the link and feedback you guys.
I think the PSC version is a better overall fit for me with the feed port out the side. This Holley would work well I think. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BHFD1NLF/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=A1VO7W8VYUVWOH&psc=1
I could probably connect direct to the pump with this. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0040B4MMC/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A1GC2PJ2W4TJYR&psc=1 With additional support of a bracket.
I'm leaning toward the PSC but I haven't made up my mind yet. Thanks for the link and feedback you guys.
- Thread starter
- #1,279
The other day I did some test fitting of a new A/C condenser and did some thinking about how to mount my steering cooler without it being attached to the radiator.
I had used this transmission cooler that I happened to have and its size that's limiting my mounting options. I have another one ordered that's basically the same but shorter so it will fit in the space above the cross brace. There's enough space to mount it between the radiator and condenser there on its own mounts instead of the plastic rods that go through the radiator fins.
I have a PSC reservoir on the way. Oh, I decided to not cut this radiator shroud in half for fan access. I did it on my other truck so I can get to the bolts holding the fan on. No room to get to those bolts on this truck without pulling the radiator so nothing to gain.
I had used this transmission cooler that I happened to have and its size that's limiting my mounting options. I have another one ordered that's basically the same but shorter so it will fit in the space above the cross brace. There's enough space to mount it between the radiator and condenser there on its own mounts instead of the plastic rods that go through the radiator fins.
I have a PSC reservoir on the way. Oh, I decided to not cut this radiator shroud in half for fan access. I did it on my other truck so I can get to the bolts holding the fan on. No room to get to those bolts on this truck without pulling the radiator so nothing to gain.
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- Thread starter
- #1,280
Today I finally got a day with no rain so I got most of the pieces cut for my fuel tank mount. Basically the gussets suggested by ntsqd and Broski. These are the front side gussets. The horizontal piece is where the straps will bolt to. Being this low will allow clearance to R&I the bed with the tank in place.
