Builds 80 series where to start! Again.... (1 Viewer)

[cjmoon]

We will see I want to get it dialed in really well. I did order the heaviest sway bar and bushings whiteline makes. Huge difference.

Just visual difference or do you have them installed on your current luxury cruiser?

 

[Golgo13]

those wheels look great!
No arguments from me about Forged vs. Cast!

11.5kg for a wheel that size is amazing!
I see that they are marked with the JWL and JWL-T certifications... what load are they designed for?

 

[scottryana]

@Golgo13 I do not know the wheel rating. Terrible I know but this wheel is specifically listed for both the 70 series and the 200 series both are heavier than the 80. I just went to Ray's site expecting to see a load listed but they don't have any data.

They do list their wheels as JWL+R Spec 2

So I guess the Japanese standard is JWL, Rays takes that a step further with JWL+R and then another step further with JWL+R Spec 2. Here is what they list as JWL+R.

▽JWL strength test items (mandatory)
・Dynamic radial fatigue test: 1,000,000 revolutions (JWL: 500,000 revolutions)
・Rotary bending fatigue test: 200,000 revolutions (JWL: 100,000 revolutions)
・13-degree impact test: Dropped from height of 305 mm (JWL: 230 mm)
▽JWL+R strength test items (unique to Rays)
・90-degree impact test: Dropped from height equal to 140 mm/ton
・Dynamic radial fatigue test after deformation of inner rim: 800,000 revolutions
・Wheel rigidity test (FEM strength analysis, rim stress)
・Coating film performance test (spraying of saline water, adhesion of coating film, weather resistance test, etc.)

 

[scottryana]

Last one until they are on the truck I swear. Lol

 

[scottryana]

Just the size alone. Stock front sway bar is 27mm the Whiteline replacement is 32mm, the stock rear is around 26mm and the Whiteline replacement is 30mm.

Again this is another case of exactly the opposite as you would want to do for most offroad situations.....

Just visual difference or do you have them installed on your current luxury cruiser?

 

[Golgo13]

@Golgo13 I do not know the wheel rating. Terrible I know but this wheel is specifically listed for both the 70 series and the 200 series both are heavier than the 80. I just went to Ray's site expecting to see a load listed but they don't have any data.

They do list their wheels as JWL+R Spec 2

So I guess the Japanese standard is JWL, Rays takes that a step further with JWL+R and then another step further with JWL+R Spec 2. Here is what they list as JWL+R.

▽JWL strength test items (mandatory)
・Dynamic radial fatigue test: 1,000,000 revolutions (JWL: 500,000 revolutions)
・Rotary bending fatigue test: 200,000 revolutions (JWL: 100,000 revolutions)
・13-degree impact test: Dropped from height of 305 mm (JWL: 230 mm)
▽JWL+R strength test items (unique to Rays)
・90-degree impact test: Dropped from height equal to 140 mm/ton
・Dynamic radial fatigue test after deformation of inner rim: 800,000 revolutions
・Wheel rigidity test (FEM strength analysis, rim stress)
・Coating film performance test (spraying of saline water, adhesion of coating film, weather resistance test, etc.)

Yep, those are the std tests you have to do to certify the wheel. However, just important as # of cycles is the load. I'm sure they did their homework if they spec it for a 200 and a 70(although, technically since they are different bolt-patterns, they have to certify at different loads...)
SAE has basically the same tests they perform to ensure the wheel will be OK to run even after damage. But everyone calculates their loads a little different. Since the # of cycles doesn't add up to the full life of the wheel, loads are increased to shorten the duration of the test. You can increase the load(and decrease the # of cycles) until you stress the wheel's material so much that it can fail. typically, they are tested below that limit to prevent premature failure and promote good data collection.
__________________________________________________________________

A lesson on what all that stuff means...

Radial Fatigue
Simulates use as a rear wheel(no cornering load) In this case you would expect the load to be based on rear axle GAWR. This is a force load(lbs or Newtons)

Rotary bending Fatigue
Simulates use as a front wheel the cornering load(has cornering load). This is a moment load(lb-ft or N-m) and is based on the moments experienced at the wheel attachment face.

13degree impact
Simulates a curb-hit. This is done by placing the wheel(mounted by a hub or hub equivalent) at a 13degree angle and dropping a weight from the specified height. The mass is based on the mass of the vehicle.

90 degree impact
A more severe version of the 13degree impact used to obtain the JWL-T. it is specific to trucks since they weigh more and are subject to a more severe environment(offroad potholes, etc). It is a mass dropped from a height.

Dynamic radial fatigue after rim deformation
First the rim is deformed in a test(not listed above) to understand the stiffness of the bead flanges. This is more important for a cast wheel since the microstructure of a cast wheel isn't uniform. Then it is subjected to the same Radial fatigue test as before, but fewer cycles.

Coating Film Performance
This is a set of environmental tests to make sure the paint looks good. There are JIS and ASTM standards for certain tests,but each manufacturer does things a little different and has their own judgement standards. Basically they want to make sure they paint looks good for as long as the warranty lasts on them. This is REALLY difficult to get understandable results on since not everyone puts the wheels in the same environment. Salty roads in the US are different from Europe, Japan or anywhere. Russia is the worst. THE WORST. They basically use so much that it is in the mud all year which means your stuff will rust apart even if it only sees summer use there. Other tests include resistance to organic solvents, acids, bases, water, pencil hardness, stone chipping, UV resistance, and my favorite, Florida Sun Exposure. They actually set the wheel on a stand in the sun in an open field in Florida for months and months(sometimes over 4 years). Someone gets paid a lot of money to monitor the wheel and take pictures and send them to the wheel manufacturer who ordered the test.

Hope people find that useful!

 

[solidfrontaxle]

This thread is so awesome

 

[Golgo13]

Just the size alone. Stock front sway bar is 27mm the Whiteline replacement is 32mm, the stock rear is around 26mm and the Whiteline replacement is 30mm.

Again this is another case of exactly the opposite as you would want to do for most offroad situations.....

Is the replacement bar solid or hollow? Depending on the thickness of the wall on a hollow tube, it might be just as still as the solid bar... Any idea on the stiffness spec of the Whiteline replacement?

Also, does anyone else think of this when they read "Whiteline?

 

[scottryana]

It is a solid bar just like the OEM bar. No stiffness specs published on any of the bars I could find. Both Whiteline and TJM make the 32mm and 30mm extra heavy bars. I chose Whiteline for no particular reason except I felt they have a better suspension/bushing reputation.

Is the replacement bar solid or hollow? Depending on the thickness of the wall on a hollow tube, it might be just as still as the solid bar... Any idea on the stiffness spec of the Whiteline replacement?

Also, does anyone else think of this when they read "Whiteline?
View attachment 1113226

 

[scottryana]

If you want to watch a boring old video about every one of these tests and how Ray's does this..... @Golgo13 one thing I found pretty incredible is Rays says they have one of the only 20,000,000lbs forges. Twenty million pounds! That is crazy!

Yep, those are the std tests you have to do to certify the wheel. However, just important as # of cycles is the load. I'm sure they did their homework if they spec it for a 200 and a 70(although, technically since they are different bolt-patterns, they have to certify at different loads...)
SAE has basically the same tests they perform to ensure the wheel will be OK to run even after damage. But everyone calculates their loads a little different. Since the # of cycles doesn't add up to the full life of the wheel, loads are increased to shorten the duration of the test. You can increase the load(and decrease the # of cycles) until you stress the wheel's material so much that it can fail. typically, they are tested below that limit to prevent premature failure and promote good data collection.
__________________________________________________________________

A lesson on what all that stuff means...

Radial Fatigue
Simulates use as a rear wheel(no cornering load) In this case you would expect the load to be based on rear axle GAWR. This is a force load(lbs or Newtons)

Rotary bending Fatigue
Simulates use as a front wheel the cornering load(has cornering load). This is a moment load(lb-ft or N-m) and is based on the moments experienced at the wheel attachment face.

13degree impact
Simulates a curb-hit. This is done by placing the wheel(mounted by a hub or hub equivalent) at a 13degree angle and dropping a weight from the specified height. The mass is based on the mass of the vehicle.

90 degree impact
A more severe version of the 13degree impact used to obtain the JWL-T. it is specific to trucks since they weigh more and are subject to a more severe environment(offroad potholes, etc). It is a mass dropped from a height.

Dynamic radial fatigue after rim deformation
First the rim is deformed in a test(not listed above) to understand the stiffness of the bead flanges. This is more important for a cast wheel since the microstructure of a cast wheel isn't uniform. Then it is subjected to the same Radial fatigue test as before, but fewer cycles.

Coating Film Performance
This is a set of environmental tests to make sure the paint looks good. There are JIS and ASTM standards for certain tests,but each manufacturer does things a little different and has their own judgement standards. Basically they want to make sure they paint looks good for as long as the warranty lasts on them. This is REALLY difficult to get understandable results on since not everyone puts the wheels in the same environment. Salty roads in the US are different from Europe, Japan or anywhere. Russia is the worst. THE WORST. They basically use so much that it is in the mud all year which means your stuff will rust apart even if it only sees summer use there. Other tests include resistance to organic solvents, acids, bases, water, pencil hardness, stone chipping, UV resistance, and my favorite, Florida Sun Exposure. They actually set the wheel on a stand in the sun in an open field in Florida for months and months(sometimes over 4 years). Someone gets paid a lot of money to monitor the wheel and take pictures and send them to the wheel manufacturer who ordered the test.

Hope people find that useful!

 

[Golgo13]

Nothing beats seeing that stuff in person... Its fun to watch when stuff breaks(unless it breaks too early...then you have A LOT of 'splainin' to do)

ALCOA has a 50,000ton(100Million Pounds) press in Cleveland...THAT is a beast.
There really isn't much need for stuff this big.
Even Ray's 10k Ton press is a bit of overkill for wheels, but i'm sure it runs more than 1 tool at a time.

 

[scottryana]

That is so awesome! Can't even fathom 100,000,000lbs! How thin would an empty beer can be if you threw it under there? lol.

 

[Golgo13]

Why does it have to be empty?
Its such a big number it is hard to understand.
its about 21,000FZJ80s!

 

[cruisermatt]

12oz of liquid means nothing to 100 million pounds

 

[cjmoon]

Just the size alone. Stock front sway bar is 27mm the Whiteline replacement is 32mm, the stock rear is around 26mm and the Whiteline replacement is 30mm.

Again this is another case of exactly the opposite as you would want to do for most offroad situations.....

I'd rather stiffen mine up a bit and add disconnects personally. that's my old school jeep brain talking. To try and create some better road manners for this beast. I don't mined disconnecting for crawling. I'm and already out airing down. And with good shocks I'm sure it could be driven with out sway bars and almost have better manners than stock sway bars and throw away shocks

I'm really a sway bar that doesn't affect flex as has been proven over and over can't be affective at speed either.

 

[NLXTACY]

Just the size alone. Stock front sway bar is 27mm the Whiteline replacement is 32mm, the stock rear is around 26mm and the Whiteline replacement is 30mm.

Again this is another case of exactly the opposite as you would want to do for most offroad situations.....

That's what disconnects are for

 

[NLXTACY]

Also, does anyone else think of this when they read "Whiteline?
View attachment 1113226

Hmm, that looks familiar...Ill Ask my wife, she'll know.

 

[NLXTACY]

12oz of liquid means nothing to 100 million pounds

Ding ding. That's what makes things interesting.

 

[scottryana]

How is it that these are the same trucks and yet could not feel any more different!!

Was not expecting that at all!

Everything about the 97 feels softer. Throttle pedal softer to push, wheel easier to turn, ride way more compliant, I guess I have been driving my OME, 35's truck for so long I thought it was supposed to feel like a truck. This thing is totally a marshmallow comparatively.


Ying/yang

 

[scottryana]

You stock FZJ80 guys have lost your minds! This s*** is dangerous! lol. You can't merge, you can't get out of the way. You push the pedal and nothing happens. I have no idea how I lived with this. lol.

After having driven an 80 with the proper amount of power. I can honestly say the person who comes up with a good, well priced, decent solution for repower is going to be very popular.