4 banger LC, thoughts? (3 Viewers)

[OldCarSmell]

I think Toyota is missing a market niche if they don’t have a removable top… like the original 4runner.

Look at all the Bronco/Jeepsters out there.

Why not collect some of them Customers along with the Karen’s and other 4runner buyers.

In some ways I think they all elect NOT to compete. Let Jeep do the Jeep thing, Bronco can do the Bronco thing, and Toyota will do their thing. People buy the brand as much if not more than the specific vehicle. Not universally of course, but I know I weight the brand when considering a purchase. I won’t ever want a Jeep and that makes me willing to accept some trade offs on a Toyota because of what it does offer and that it’s not a Jeep. Contrasting aesthetic and functionality makes you stand out. If you do the same thing, sure you may peel off some sales, but maybe you lose some too from people that don’t want a Jeep or Bronco or X or something that resembles X.

 

[elbarto]

The limited model 4Runners already have full time 4wD with a locking center diff.

I really believe the 6th Gen 4Runner will only offer the 2.4T. The lower trims will be the regular 2.4T with the Limited and TRD Pro getting the same hybrid from the Tacoma and LC. If Toyota shrinks the vehicle down and offers the TRD (Pro and Package) with extended control arms and long travel suspension they will bring a fight to the Bronco and Wrangler. Go look at the Bronco forums. There is constant complaints of noise, water intrusion, and vibrations on the removable top. If 4Runner can retain the roll down rear window, throw on a panoramic roof like Tundra and Sequoia, it will have that same open air vibe without the hassle.

Yes, the Limited has (for the past 20 years) had full time 4WD; even more reason why I don’t think they will have the 2.4T-H in the 4Runner; because that would be direct competition to the LC.

There's a lot of unknowns at this point because the marketing strategy is seemingly irrational. LC250 and LC300 are basically the same vehicle now. And 4Runner has historically been the same thing as the LC Prado. If 4Runner is the same thing as LC250 - why have both? Why have LC250 and LC300? At the end of the day they're all closer to different trims of the same vehicle than they are to different models. Presumably Toyota will try to differentiate the 4Runner in some way from the LC250. There's just not a lot of ways to make 2 or 3 BOF SUVs share the same rolling chassis and wagon body and still be meaningfully differentiated in the market.

4Runner currently has the most cargo room of any Toyota BOF model. And it has a 3rd row. LC250 may end up having similar or more cargo volume - but no 3rd row. Presumably that means 4Runner needs to retain the 3rd row. And that suggests to me that the 4R isn't getting smaller. On the other hand - It seems like the 4Runner should be smaller to offer something different from the LC. Otherwise - why have both? It's a coin toss to me what they do with size.

The 4Runner will almost certainly retain the limited trim that is a level of trim above any of the LC250 models that have been shown so far. Limited 4Runner is one of the most popular trims. And that will probably price it around $60k - in the mid range of the LC250, maybe near the top of LC250 trims. So, I think the 4Runner will have the same powertrain as the LC250 along with a base T4 non-hybrid just like the Tacoma. If anything, the 4Runner Limited should get the T6 to keep the third row option and have a Toyota side midsize model with the higher towing capacity.

I don't think there's ever been a time when the Tacoma had more power than the 4runner. The only time they had the same top engine was 1996-2002. For most years they were roughly similar and in some cases the top engine in Tacoma was the base engine in 4Runner. In this case - I think it'll either be T4hybrid only or T4 base and T4 hybrid option with a very very small chance of T6 top engine in Limited and TRD Pro trims. The Trail Hunter trim 4Runner is the one that I think will be nearly identical to the LC250, except probably with better suspension.

I think you're right about not going after the Wrangler/Bronco market. It's just not in Toyota's DNA to build enthusiast vehicles. And if they wanted to do that - it probably would have been the new LC nameplate. I'm mostly just spit balling on what Toyota could do to make the 4Runner unique enough to make sense in a broader market lineup. The obvious choice is to downsize it to Fortuner size and call it a day. But everything in the rumor mill is that it's merging back to be a Tacoma with extra seats - but that's pretty much what the LC250 is.

Since I'm just randomly daydreaming - it would be kinda awesome for Toyota to resurrect the TJ Cruiser into a modern Toyota version of an adventure van ready to buildout as a camp van, but with the full chassis and running gear of a long bed Tacoma Trail Hunter. Add another 8-10" in height to the roofline and use the Tacoma 130" wheelbase and have enough room for 4 seats in front and a full 7 feet behind the rear seats for camper buildout or maybe even configurable as a 7 or 9 passenger van.

Yes I totally agree, hard to differentiate the BOF SUVs when they all share same platform and very similar size. I agree I think the 3 row will be retained on the 4R.
Problem with making the 4R Limited “really nice” and priced at 60k+, is that’s GX550 territory!
I think the hybrid 2.5 is the hybrid engine option that it will get, so it doesn’t undercut the LC. It’s a good powertrain for a lot of people, even if it isn’t the exciting powertrain enthusiasts want.

 

[NTTD]

Yes I totally agree, hard to differentiate the BOF SUVs when they all share same platform and very similar size.

I'm actually quite surprised how similarly-sized they are (so far) turning out to be.

I figured (and welcomed) that there there would be plenty of shared design and parts in the drivetrain and suspension, I expected more variation in wheelbase and track.

 

[Jetboy]

Yes, the Limited has (for the past 20 years) had full time 4WD; even more reason why I don’t think they will have the 2.4T-H in the 4Runner; because that would be direct competition to the LC.


Yes I totally agree, hard to differentiate the BOF SUVs when they all share same platform and very similar size. I agree I think the 3 row will be retained on the 4R.
Problem with making the 4R Limited “really nice” and priced at 60k+, is that’s GX550 territory!
I think the hybrid 2.5 is the hybrid engine option that it will get, so it doesn’t undercut the LC. It’s a good powertrain for a lot of people, even if it isn’t the exciting powertrain enthusiasts want.

The Tacoma will have the 2.4T hybrid in many trims at $35k(?) and up. I can buy a TTv6 4x4 tundra for $40k. I don't see it as a premium powertrain they'll hold back from the 4Runner. I'll be surprised if there's not a PHEV 4Runner at some point - what engine it's paired with is still anyone's guess. I'm really surprised there's not a PHEV or EV Tacoma yet. And the Tacoma off-road models are already going to compete with the LC. The TrailHunter Taco may already be the better overland platform vs the LC if the seating layout is better than the old taco. It has a lot going for it.

4Runner Limited 4wd is $53k now and the GX base is $60k. If a 4R limited jumps to maybe $58k. That's way too high for a base T4. I think GX550 is going to start at $65k or higher. That leaves the LC to fit between around $55-65k. It doesn't appear to have very much optionality, so a tight range probably makes sense. Typically Toyota's models seem to overlap about 30-50% in pricing in most markets between the top spec of one and base of the next model, but not as much in the USA market. I'm not sure Toyota cares about undercutting the LC. They did it before with the 4Runner and the Sequoia for 2 generations.

 

[Land Caesar]

Does anyone think this LC 250
Can tow 5,000lbs of camper or enclosed trailer without extreme high Rpm’s?

My 100 Pulled a 5,000lbs dump trailer without issue as I had airbags in the coils.

Also towed my camper easily.

I don’t live in major hill type areas…. Flat Mainly.

Just figured id ask.

After all the Hp and Torque numbers are impressive with a substantial size suv vehicle.

 

[elbarto]

No reason to think it couldn’t pull it.

Silverado base engine is a 2.7L turbo 4, I’ve not driven it, but look up TFL Truck Ike Gauntlet video on YouTube. Pulls 6700lb trailer up I-70 at the speed limit.

Tow ratings all follow an SAE standard now based on acceleration time and braking distance on grade.

 

[Land Caesar]

No reason to think it couldn’t pull it.

Silverado base engine is a 2.7L turbo 4, I’ve not driven it, but look up TFL Truck Ike Gauntlet video on YouTube. Pulls 6700lb trailer up I-70 at the speed limit.

Tow ratings all follow an SAE standard now based on acceleration time and braking distance on grade.

Watched entire video … like that guys opinion and videos.

Impressive performance from a little 4cyl.
7,000 lbs is no small weight.

Yet that fuel economy isn’t much better than a 6 or 8 cyl without trailer.

Certainly did it well,Especially with only… 310hp and 348 ft/lbs torque.

Makes me really ponder this new 250 as a purchase.

I’d want to tow a 20’-25’ camper occasionally.
About 5k lbs.

Obviously not all the time or up mountains.

 

[elbarto]

Watched entire video … like that guys opinion and videos.

Impressive performance from a little 4cyl.
7,000 lbs is no small weight.

Yet that fuel economy isn’t much better than a 6 or 8 cyl without trailer.

Certainly did it well,Especially with only… 310hp and 348 ft/lbs torque.

Makes me really ponder this new 250 as a purchase.

I’d want to tow a 20’-25’ camper occasionally.
About 5k lbs.

Obviously not all the time or up mountains.

It got what, like 4mpg? No, not good. But if you watch some of the other videos TFL does of the Ike, the other trucks are getting low single digit mpg as well with a trailer behind it. "The Ike Gauntlet" is a brutal steep climb, no vehicle is going to get good mileage especially with a trailer behind it. Comes down to how much/how often you tow.

310hp/348hp the 2.7 makes were big numbers just 20 years ago. Thats more than a Chevy Vortec 5300 from the early 2000s.

Would I want the Chevy 2.7T or Toyota 2.4T if I was going to be towing 3000-5000lb weekly, or even monthly? Eh probably not. Couple times a year, yeah itll be fine.

FWIW, heres the "Ike Gauntlet" route they test. Ive driven it many times. Its steep, and at high elevation. Been stuck in traffic on it many times too watching cars next to me struggle to find traction too haha

 

[Land Caesar]

It got what, like 4mpg? No, not good. But if you watch some of the other videos TFL does of the Ike, the other trucks are getting low single digit mpg as well with a trailer behind it. "The Ike Gauntlet" is a brutal steep climb, no vehicle is going to get good mileage especially with a trailer behind it. Comes down to how much/how often you tow.

310hp/348hp the 2.7 makes were big numbers just 20 years ago. Thats more than a Chevy Vortec 5300 from the early 2000s.

Would I want the Chevy 2.7T or Toyota 2.4T if I was going to be towing 3000-5000lb weekly, or even monthly? Eh probably not. Couple times a year, yeah itll be fine.

FWIW, heres the "Ike Gauntlet" route they test. Ive driven it many times. Its steep, and at high elevation. Been stuck in traffic on it many times too watching cars next to me struggle to find traction too haha

Compare the 250 performance to what 3/4 ton trucks got in 2008.

Large heavy trucks that got around 300hp and around 380 Torque.

This Land Cruiser 250 has the 325 Hp and 465! Ft/lbs Of Torque.

I believe it can tow an occasional camper just by assessing the numbers, yet real world may differ completely.

Compare the 100 series to this 250, if it is similar in towing, that’s all I’d need.

The 4cyl is what makes me ponder the ability. Yet numbers are there.

I’m not towing 6,800 lbs either

 

[elbarto]

Of course, it’s about “area under the curve” for real world performance.
A 4 cyl turbo is not going to have the flat torque curve of a high displacement V8, it will be seeing those peak numbers briefly at a high rpm. But again, big improvements have been made compared to 4 cyl turbos from 20 years ago with turbo design, valve timing, etc, the torque curve is able to be much flatter. Plus the electric motor torque will help tremendously pulling off the line.
I think it will be fine for incidental towing.

 

[Land Caesar]

Of course, it’s about “area under the curve” for real world performance.
A 4 cyl turbo is not going to have the flat torque curve of a high displacement V8, it will be seeing those peak numbers briefly at a high rpm. But again, big improvements have been made compared to 4 cyl turbos from 20 years ago with turbo design, valve timing, etc, the torque curve is able to be much flatter. Plus the electric motor torque will help tremendously pulling off the line.
I think it will be fine for incidental towing.

Many are associating this new 4cyl turbo hybrid to a 4cyl turbo from 20 yrs ago

I do think your assessment of The Torque numbers at High RPM” is not accurate

My 2022 Hybrid has power from start to high rpm and throughout.

You can see on the readout that the Electric motors are operating during a acceleration and Flat Power requirement, not just at high rpm.

 

[SnoopisTDI]

The turbo 4cyl also will maintain very close to rated power output at elevation. A naturally aspirated engine loses roughly 15% of it's power at 5000ft, and 25% at 7500ft.

 

[on the rocks]

Does anyone think this LC 250
Can tow 5,000lbs of camper or enclosed trailer without extreme high Rpm’s?

My 100 Pulled a 5,000lbs dump trailer without issue as I had airbags in the coils.

Also towed my camper easily.

I don’t live in major hill type areas…. Flat Mainly.

Just figured id ask.

After all the Hp and Torque numbers are impressive with a substantial size suv vehicle.

Maybe without 4 people, 2 dogs and a cargo area and roof full of crap and spare gas cans... I forgot to look for a payload sticker when there but not sure the SUV market requires them. 2 people and an empty LC, sure.
Just like a truck, its all about the payload NOT towing numbers. 9 times out of 10 you will exceed the payload before you come close to max tow rating.

 

[Land Caesar]

Maybe without 4 people, 2 dogs and a cargo area and roof full of crap and spare gas cans... I forgot to look for a payload sticker when there but not sure the SUV market requires them. 2 people and an empty LC, sure.
Just like a truck, its all about the payload NOT towing numbers. 9 times out of 10 you will exceed the payload before you come close to max tow rating.

The 100 series I had was a curb weight of 5400#
Plus Arb front and rear bumpers, winch, lift and oversized tires. I bet it was around 6,200#… can’t find my weight slip from scale.

It had “ONLY” 235 Hp and 320 Ft/lbs, yet towed my 5400# dump trailer of logs very well up inclines.



Now… the New 250 LC stock weight is 5100# (Only weight I found on line) could be around 6,000# loaded to the Hill with gear/upgrades/people

It’s increased 91hp and … increased 148 ft lbs over the 100 series certainly is an improvement… even if it’s “Occasional Hybrid power”. (It works continuously throughout/not just starting off and at high rpm)


*
Point being… this 250 Land Cruiser “Should” tow just as good or atleast very “close to the 100series”. Paperwork numbers would indicate.. Dare I say “Better”?

 

[Rednexus]

Of course, it’s about “area under the curve” for real world performance.
A 4 cyl turbo is not going to have the flat torque curve of a high displacement V8, it will be seeing those peak numbers briefly at a high rpm. But again, big improvements have been made compared to 4 cyl turbos from 20 years ago with turbo design, valve timing, etc, the torque curve is able to be much flatter. Plus the electric motor torque will help tremendously pulling off the line.
I think it will be fine for incidental towing.

Unless you have a big-block, N/A V8s don't really have a flat torque curve compared to a modern TTV6 or turbo 4. My 2UZ-FE doesn't make peak torque til 3400 rpm, and is noticeably short on torque while towing below 2,300 rpm. I've driven lots of Ecoboost motors as rentals and they have a much flatter torque curve. My 2UZ-FE does have plenty of pulling power, you just have to rev it.

 

[UZJ100LC]

Unless you have a big-block, N/A V8s don't really have a flat torque curve compared to a modern TTV6 or turbo 4. My 2UZ-FE doesn't make peak torque til 3400 rpm, and is noticeably short on torque while towing below 2,300 rpm. I've driven lots of Ecoboost motors as rentals and they have a much flatter torque curve. My 2UZ-FE does have plenty of pulling power, you just have to rev it.

My 100 series is my current DD. I can literally watch my fuel gauge needle go down when I rev up past 3k rpm lol.

After watching that Silverado 1500 2.7 4T video, I can honestly say these small engines are different beasts than the 4 bangers of the past. I’m much less worried than I was after the debut of the new LC

 

[Land Caesar]

My 100 series is my current DD. I can literally watch my fuel gauge needle go down when I rev up past 3k rpm lol.

After watching that Silverado 1500 2.7 4T video, I can honestly say these small engines are different beasts than the 4 bangers of the past. I’m much less worried than I was after the debut of the new LC

My initial reaction was WTF Yota?!?!

Then I gave it good thought and reconsidered actually purchasing the 250

The problem I see is…
55k with High interest rates
Ok I can handle that

Yet a additional $7k for a premium package?

Sure hope I can get that Roof rack with out the premium package…..

And

I really want that 2400 inverter. Yet the premium package may be required.

So now it’s a $62-63k vehicle with tax and title.. plus high interest rates

Na, no thanks I’ll pass on that.

 

[elbarto]

The turbo 4cyl also will maintain very close to rated power output at elevation. A naturally aspirated engine loses roughly 15% of it's power at 5000ft, and 25% at 7500ft.

This x100

Unless you have a big-block, N/A V8s don't really have a flat torque curve compared to a modern TTV6 or turbo 4. My 2UZ-FE doesn't make peak torque til 3400 rpm, and is noticeably short on torque while towing below 2,300 rpm. I've driven lots of Ecoboost motors as rentals and they have a much flatter torque curve. My 2UZ-FE does have plenty of pulling power, you just have to rev it.

TTV6 are super torquey! Audi’s 2.7T (twin turbo v6) from the early 2000s is an awesome motor, super flat torque curve(with the stock turbos…It gets a bit peak-y with bigger turbos), and I know the Toyota 3.4TT and Ford Ecoboost V6TT are torque monsters; but V6s tend to be a bit torquier than inline-4s.

My current daily is a Ram 2500 with 6.4L V8, smooth and torquey engine…but if I end up in one of these new LCs I don’t think I’ll be missing the V8 though. It has substantial power loss at altitude being n/a, and it only gets like 12-13mpg.

 

[OldCarSmell]

My initial reaction was WTF Yota?!?!

Then I gave it good thought and reconsidered actually purchasing the 250

The problem I see is…
55k with High interest rates
Ok I can handle that

Yet a additional $7k for a premium package?

Sure hope I can get that Roof rack with out the premium package…..

And

I really want that 2400 inverter. Yet the premium package may be required.

So now it’s a $62-63k vehicle with tax and title.. plus high interest rates

Na, no thanks I’ll pass on that.

Have you seen anything as to whether the inverter will be useable when the vehicle is off?

 

[Land Caesar]

Have you seen anything as to whether the inverter will be useable when the vehicle is off?

Toyota hybrids operate in such ways…. I’m sure

My 2022 sienna can be on and operate the hvac system off the battery , as it starts up to charge battery occasionally