4 banger LC, thoughts? (2 Viewers)

[flx]

Toyota wouldn't have canceled V8 development if it weren't for CAFE. And yes, the 300 would have a screamer and might be more desirable. The Lexus LS would have a V8 and solve a HUGE problem. I've noticed most owners 570 owners including myself aren't happy that the V8 is gone.

Also, let me be absolutely clear: I am not blaming Toyota or carmakers for this, it's all Uncle Sam.

Half of Toyota engineers are shaking their heads just like I and others are. But they're forced by the government.

That's why I refuse to drive anything other than V8s (that and I enjoy them just that much)--- I am not essentially following government orders.

I don't give a FF that my LX gets 13MPG, and most of the rest of us don't either.

LC fans in the US asked in majority for years to get a lighter, cheaper and simpler Land Cruiser, this is exactly what the Land Cruiser Prado is and was created for.

The Land Cruiser Prado had 4 cylinders since its creation in the 80's. And back then no agency forced Toyota engineers to put 4cyl in them, just their engineer rationality.



Oh and the legend of the Land Cruiser was built on 6cyl, not V8s... Toyota just added V8 in the 2000's to please the US market that somehow think that only V8 are good.
Many other petrol markets kept the 1FZ on the 100 and had the 1GR on the 200. And they are not markets with any emission regulation at all.

 

[malba2366]

My ‘87 Acura Integra had a 1.6l 4-cylinder. Made around 110 hp. That was a little jewel of an engine. It didn’t buzz or vibrate. I quite enjoyed the sound. It wasn’t fast by modern standards but gosh I loved running that little motor through the gears. It was lovely.

So I disagree with you that all 4-cylinder engines are unpleasant. Maybe all the engines you’ve experienced have been unpleasant, but I think you’ve missed some gems.

When they get to be higher displacement (2.4L is relatively large for a 4 cyl) they get much harsher. The NVH characteristics of a I4 engine, due to inherent imbalance, are generally about as bad as it gets (boxer engines are a different story but not really relevant here)....this works in a relatively low cost vehicle such as an Integra, but the Land Cruiser, especially in the higher trims will not be a low cost vehicle. Hopefully the hybrid system can work to keep the loads on the I4 lower so that it doesn't constantly have to get high into the rev band. It is also possible Toyota may be using some sort of noise cancellation and piped in engine sounds to keep the sounds in the cabin pleasant. It all remains to be seen.

 

[carboncycles]

The obsession with large HP numbers is mind boggling. It's completely feasible to get large numbers from small displacement systems and hybrid platforms.

I can only imagine what the first remote mechanic in the ME will think when he runs into his first hybrid...bet its going to be something like "neat, that's one big ass battery I can use to run my house at night"

Lots of first world problems and stark contrast in expectations...

 

[Jetboy]

I have always thought it was odd that Toyota didn't just make the T24A into an I6 option as well. It would be really similar in design to the BMW B58. And it could be sold as a single turbo model for the LC and others. And a performance oriented twin turbo for the LX. And a 200hp NA version for markets wanting a simple base engine. It could also be used as a diesel engine in turbo and non-turbo forms. The BMW B58 block is used for both gas and diesel variants. And then Toyota would have two engines that share most internals and engineering work that range all the way from a 160hp NA 2.4 4cyl gas model all the way up to 500hp twin turbo I6. Hybrids are mix and match. And all engines are easy to service because you could access the turbo and all the systems easily. Seems like it would have been the easier choice for Toyota vs the very complex TTv6 it created. The only downside I can think of is length. So, maybe it didn't work well with the hybrid. It would get pretty long to have I6, plus hybrid motor, plus transmission, plus transfer case. In that case maybe it end up as two alternatives - I6 in two flavors or hybrid T4.

 

[M1911]

When they get to be higher displacement (2.4L is relatively large for a 4 cyl) they get much harsher. The NVH characteristics of a I4 engine, due to inherent imbalance, are generally about as bad as it gets (boxer engines are a different story but not really relevant here)....this works in a relatively low cost vehicle such as an Integra, but the Land Cruiser, especially in the higher trims will not be a low cost vehicle. Hopefully the hybrid system can work to keep the loads on the I4 lower so that it doesn't constantly have to get high into the rev band. It is also possible Toyota may be using some sort of noise cancellation and piped in engine sounds to keep the sounds in the cabin pleasant. It all remains to be seen.

Larger displacement 4s do have worse NVH characteristics than smaller ones, but manufacturers today can use things like balance shafts and fluid-filled engine mounts to reduce it. I can tell you that 2.0l turbocharged 4 in my wife's C300 is quite good. It is generally working at low RPMs, so the NVH is fine, and the turbo gives it a lot of power.

I won't write off the LC250 as having bad NVH until I've driven one. Maybe I'll hate it, like I hate the 4.0 in the 5th Gen 4Runner, or maybe I won't.

 

[M1911]

I would expect in a couple of years when LX600's have some track record and some second hands start showing up there will be solutions to cut down on the spindle grill and improve approach angle. Like CBI currently carrying for the GX470/460 and LX570.

Dissent has one, but I don't much care for it.

 

[NTTD]

If they made it a hybrid but won't let you use the battery for external power that will be a huge miss. If you can use it to power stuff like your campsite then it starts to make more sense vs picking up a TRD 4Runner for the same price.

I don't think there's enough battery to do this. It's not an EV or "Plug In Hybrid" with a big pack.

All I know is my seq TRD gets like 15 mpg so don’t get too excited about gas mileage with these turbo hybrids. The power however is wonderful any nothing like the NA v6 and v8s that are reliable but very slow.

THIS!
The new Sequoia is a great real world example that you can get more with less and that Toyota can bring that.

..., and then the cloth interior, 4cylinder, $55k Flagship???

You're speaking of the base model "1958", I don't think anyone is calling that the flagship. Plus this line is meant to be the "Land Cruiser with options" we've been asking for since the 100.

I have a real Land Cruiser with a real V8. Real Land Cruisers should be painfully slow - almost dangerously slow. Real Land Cruisers should get 10-14 mpg and have a range under 250 miles. Wait... that's starting to not sound so great.

I'll take a 326/465 4cyl with an 8-speed over my 276/332 V8 with a 5-speed any day. Remember - this is a TOYOTA drivetrain.

Also, this talk about "watered down", "not flagship" - come on. The 2024 Land Cruiser is more in line with what the Land Cruiser was supposed to be. Do you think the FJ40 should've morphed into a $100,000 massive luxury truck - to compete with the Escalade? Toyota should've done this years ago. I mean for *#$^ sake - they have Lexus. That's where the Escalade competitor should be - the LX600. It was dumb to have the 200 series and the LX - they were competing with themselves.

THIS!

Toyota wouldn't have canceled V8 development if it weren't for CAFE. And yes, the 300 would have a screamer and might be more desirable.... I am not blaming Toyota or carmakers for this, it's all Uncle Sam.

Half of Toyota engineers are shaking their heads just like I and others are. But they're forced by the government.

You really think it's because of the "US Govt" that the J300 (which is BARELY even in this market) doesn't have a V8?! Really, really?

Without the 300 series coming to the US that seems the only option. Maybe once the LX600 has some track record and second hand once get to $80k it would be an alternative.

You immediately contradict yourself in just two sentences and also beautifully and succinctly (unintentionally I'd wager) illustrate the WHY we have this new LC. The J200 LC was no "alternative" to the J200 Lexus, both competing for the same space. A J300 with a "Toyota" badge would be no different. There's a reason they sold like crap.

Don't you see how ludicrous it is talking about AN 80K USED VEHICLE being a viable alternative to anything in this space?!
So many of us have been bitching FOR YEARS about the ONLY Cruiser option being a super expensive "Luxury SUV".

 

[Hiluxforever]

When they get to be higher displacement (2.4L is relatively large for a 4 cyl) they get much harsher. The NVH characteristics of a I4 engine, due to inherent imbalance, are generally about as bad as it gets (boxer engines are a different story but not really relevant here)....this works in a relatively low cost vehicle such as an Integra, but the Land Cruiser, especially in the higher trims will not be a low cost vehicle. Hopefully the hybrid system can work to keep the loads on the I4 lower so that it doesn't constantly have to get high into the rev band. It is also possible Toyota may be using some sort of noise cancellation and piped in engine sounds to keep the sounds in the cabin pleasant. It all remains to be seen.

Wasn't necessarily my experience with either 22Rs or 2RZs. 3RZs did have an external balance shaft.

 

[tampacruiser95]

I'm in favor of cleaner exhaust. I moved away from Utah in large part because we didn't want to raise our kids in such polluted air. The biggest contributor is vehicle emissions. I loved Utah and I was willing to live with it myself, but I'm not willing to knowingly shorten my kids lives by a few years. The emissions won't be cleaned up unless it's done by mandate. It's not an imaginary bogyman they're targeting. I wouldn't even consider myself an environmentalist, but I think every rational person still prefers clean air and water.

View attachment 3392394

Color me surprised that Utah doesn't have clean air.

 

[MrX]

Oh and the legend of the Land Cruiser was built on 6cyl, not V8s... Toyota just added V8 in the 2000's to please the US market that somehow think that only V8 are good.
Many other petrol markets kept the 1FZ on the 100 and had the 1GR on the 200. And they are not markets with any emission regulation at all.

You live in France, your position on V8s is useless to me. You all don't know what you're missing.

You really think it's because of the "US Govt" that the J300 (which is BARELY even in this market) doesn't have a V8?! Really, really?

I think it's part of the global push for efficiency. In general, there are barely any V8s available to us in the USA anymore because of CAFE. Overseas LC owners also miss the V8 diesel or so I've read.

Americans like their V8s. The Denali I picked up, the Corvette V8 is stunning with the response and acceleration-- I had to get a GM 6.2 pure ICE while I can. Though I'm not sure GM will ever join that hybrid wagon, at least I hope not. A GM truck is one of the few vehicles left with unmolested NA V8 greatness. The RAM Hemi is ruined by the hybrid assist. Ford Coyote is okay but too small (not a truck engine) and I feel on the chopping block soon unfortunately

 

[2021 LC200]

You immediately contradict yourself in just two sentences and also beautifully and succinctly (unintentionally I'd wager) illustrate the WHY we have this new LC. The J200 LC was no "alternative" to the J200 Lexus, both competing for the same space. A J300 with a "Toyota" badge would be no different. There's a reason they sold like crap.

Hi NTTD, as you can imagine I am flattered contradicting myself... So you are claiming the LC200 and LX570 are not brothers? One more understated then the other and depending on taste would attract different buyers. Do not get the point you are trying to make other than that most LC200 owners are enthusiast of the product and capability and reliability and looks and a good portion of LX570 owners do not even know. They just want a SUV, maybe the 7 seats, the badge and like the big grill and know it will not break as much as a US or German alternative. Fine reasons to buy one. Resulted in more LX570 sales imo.

Overall I do not think you read the context. I plan to keep the 200 for as long as I enjoy it. I am indicating the LX600 would be the only potential future option for me in absence of the LC300 in the US, with the front bumper clipped and upgraded with a CBI or equivalent style bumper.

 

[moridin2002]

They also purposely chose Nickel Hydride because it was more readily accessible vs lithium. I recall the engineering team discussing this when the IMAX was originally designed for the Tundra/Sequoia platform.

Lithium would have given a smaller footprint with more output, but I guess Toyota wasn't excited about having their entire operation dependent on a handful of lithium mines (e.g., China, Venezuela) in somewhat unstable geo-political regions.

I am hopefully that Toyota will eventually offer a lithium retrofit kit...but not holding my breathe.

They chose it because it’s cheaper and also potentially due to older volume purchase agreements with their Panasonic joint battery venture.

 

[moridin2002]

We all wish we could have had a V8. They sound great, run smooth, and have bulletproof reliability. However with emissions standards being what they are, the V8 is dead outside of pickups and sports cars (even sports cars are slim pickings now). It's tragic, but a fact of life. It's all due to CAFE standards. With the footprint of the LC getting smaller, there would've been no way that they could have sold this or the T4R in large numbers with a V6 or V8. The latest proposal is supposed to be a fleet average of 58 MPG by MY2032. Now the formulas for figuring all of this crap out are complicated and the testing methodology is different as to how we get our EPA estimates that we see on the window sticker, but you can at least get an idea of where it's going. Long story short, it's getting to be about that time where every automaker is throwing every trick in the book to increase efficiency. Low-flow oil systems, hybridization, reducing cylinder count, and so many gears in a trans you think you have a CVT are going to be the norm for ICE vehicles until full-scale electrification is pushed (or adopted).

Passenger Car Standards:

View attachment 3392138

Link to Passenger Car Standards
Link to Latest EPA Proposal

That’s also 2-cycle fuel economy and not the 5-cycle list on your EPA fuel economy (Monroney) label. Multiple by 0.7 to go translate (roughly) 2-cycle to 5-cycle.

 

[MrTorgue]

It's part geography. But the core problem is emissions. It's not cold air that causes lung cancer. It's the stuff in the air - like sulfur dioxides and nitrous dioxides. They don't get there by themselves. And it's not unique to SLC, although it is somewhat unique in concentration at times. Most major cities in the world have air pollution problems. And most of the worlds people live in those cities.

In the end it's the same argument about leaded gas and burning coal. It's often presented as a black and white talking point that its always bad or always good. Even worse in our current world of ultra short media. In reality there's a balance of known harms and benefits. In this case - if we don't need to pollute the air why choose to do it? Especially if we can get better utility from the product and less pollution.

While true my point was it wouldn't be as much of a problem if it wasn't stuck there in that bowl.

 

[stonepa]

LC fans in the US asked in majority for years to get a lighter, cheaper and simpler Land Cruiser, this is exactly what the Land Cruiser Prado is and was created for.

The Land Cruiser Prado had 4 cylinders since its creation in the 80's. And back then no agency forced Toyota engineers to put 4cyl in them, just their engineer rationality.



Oh and the legend of the Land Cruiser was built on 6cyl, not V8s... Toyota just added V8 in the 2000's to please the US market that somehow think that only V8 are good.
Many other petrol markets kept the 1FZ on the 100 and had the 1GR on the 200. And they are not markets with any emission regulation at all.

I say bring back the 2F.

This conversation is typical of all conversations these days - it quickly devolves into the boogie man in the closet argument. This political nonsense gets so old. Might be good to just get out and drive your Land Cruiser - powered by whatever - and take a deep breath.

 

[Phillyd2]

Then the auto engineers (including Toyota) who keep say that they are forced to meet the mandates should stop lying - but I don't think they are.

 

[Leelanau]

Interesting how the 200 series with a big V8 is the "real Land Cruiser". I doubt people were saying that when the 200 was revealed. With a sticker price of $68,575 ($99,100 in 2023 dollars) for the 2008 Land Cruiser, and soccer mom good looks, I doubt people were singing praise for it. Someone's gotta dig up threads from then and see how many people were belly aching about "not a real Land Cruiser" in 2007.

(I love my 200, but it's not a hill I'm going to die on, times change)

I did that a few months back, and it’s hilarious. Just go to the first few pages of the 200 section and read the threads. It is ironic and endlessly entertaining.

 

[hanzo111]

I can only add one thing to this long post. Our rx400h has a tiny little motor and a tiny little electric motor and a tiny little battery under the seat.
-Off the line acceleration is instant
-230k trouble free miles and counting
-tows a 19foot Carolina skiff/trailer like it’s not there.
-27mpg avg
-same parts as a Highlander hybrid so they are inexpensive.

I’m convinced with the engine combo, just not sure if I would pass over the GX for cloth and nostalgia at my age. I like a bit of luxury.

Oh and here is a potato

 

[NeilC]

I guess I'll step in it. Having worked on every part of my 62, and 80 series, I don't think this deserves the LC title. It looks great but the LC was made to last and made to be worked on, stripped down rebuilt and keep going. I know things are going hybrid, but water intrusion is real, especially in Australia, Central and South America and Africa, (Prado). but as a mechanic I don't think this is going to last. Will it sell a gazillion? heck yea it will. but just like everything else in the world, its watered down and called better. Ill stick w my old cars I guess. they go w my grey hair anyway.

I think this states one of my concerns. There is a lot of technology crammed into 1 power plant. Toyota is the best in the world for not building a vehicle before all the bugs are worked out which causes them to be late to the game in a lot of instances. I am certain that the powertrain will be reliable. When I first heard that they were ceasing production of the LC in the US, I was sad but understood that this was simply the US market telling Toyota they didn't want a Land Cruiser because of the sales numbers.

After the Land Cruiser was pulled, people started buying up 200s at a premium on the used market. They were paying 10,000 plus more for LC's than LX's which I never understood, so I bought an LX570. I have a 91 LC, and yes, with the 3FE which is my "utility" vehicle. The 3FE definitely cannot have the word "Sport" associated with it in any way. I have owned a 2000 100 series which I would still be driving if some idiot hadn't turned left into oncoming traffic(me), and hit me head on, totaling my first Land Cruiser. I couldn't find an acceptable replacement at the time so I took my wife's 2006 4wd 4runner V6 and put her in an RX. The 4runner was light, smooth, and quicker than the 100 with the 4.7 V8. It was definitely no Land Cruiser though. Land Cruisers, in my opinion, are TANKS.

When this 250 "Land Cruiser" was released this week, I was still sad because it is not a Land Cruiser. Land Cruisers have always been the pinnacle of Toyota's line. So much so that the equivalent Lexus is viewed unfavorably by the US compared to the Land Cruiser. Toyota saw how to capitalize on this. They had their first opportunity with the FJ Cruiser. If you put the name "Land Cruiser" on something they will buy it PERIOD.

My 80 and the 62 before it had the 3FE. Bullet proof and powerful. The low end torque from this thing is amazing. The high rpm power falls off a cliff but lets not forget, this engine was designed when the US max speed limit was 55. My 100 and 200 also have powerful truck engines with plenty of low end torque. The US has never gotten a diesel but we did get the best gas truck engines Toyota had to offer in our Land Cruisers.

As soon as I heard that this new "Land Cruiser" was not getting the powertrain from the Tundra and Sequoia but the Tacoma's powertrain, I thought FJ Cruiser. The GX550 might be the US's new "Land Cruiser" but now what interests me most is what the new 4runner will be like. This new one seems to be wanting to occupy the same niche as the 4runner. That being said the 2024 Land Cruiser seems like it might be a camper/overlander's dream with the hybrid system and the amount of 110v power output. I dont know how that hybrid system will deal with bigger mud terrain tires and accessories like bumpers' wenches, drawer systems, awnings and rooftop tents. It seems like a lot to be asking from a 2.4 4 cylinder. Keep the vehicle light and long weekends in nature seems to have gotten a lot more comfortable.

One last note, I dont like buying new vehicles because I cant justify the cost. The battery cost that will be associated with the hybrid system should be a concern to everyone. The age/condition of the battery will be the single biggest factor for anyone looking at a used one in 5 to 10 years. That and maybe head gaskets as always.

 

[JohnPW]

Environmental groups/NGOs pushing this stuff are among the most anti-science and anti-reality I've ever seen. They have a pie-in-the-sky notion that we'll all be driving EVs, that battery metals appear out of thin air, that the charging infrastructure required to support all of it will be free, and that solar and wind will solve all of our problems (unless it's built in their back yard).

We can and should decarbonize, but it's simply not possible by 2035 or even 2050.

So much of this is grifter politicians pitching bad policy to elements of the public who want to virtue signal.

Globally, cars, trucks and motorcycles (not including buses, semi’s etc) represent 7% of global man made CO2. Cars and trucks in North America represent less than 3% of global man made CO2. Making an EV has a large carbon footprint from mining, and from shipping minerals across the planet. The carbon breakeven of an EV is somewhere around 60,000 miles depending on the source of electricity used for charging. As a result, the move to EV will have an immaterial impact on global man made CO2. I have seen analysis that points to less than a 1% reduction in CO2 if we completely transition to EV’s.

Why these issues aren’t discussed by the environmental groups most concerned about global warming is a mystery to me. Germany is busy building EV’s and windmills, but just undid all of their environmental progress by shutting down their nuclear power plants, for no reason at all. There seems to be no consistent thought among the global warming crowd.