I own a boat, and all the outboard motor manufacturers have moved from v6 to I4 motors in the 150 to 200hp range. They all use balance shafts, and it is amazing how smooth and vibration free these outboards are.
4 banger LC, thoughts?
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My commuter prior to WFH was a Mazda3 with a Skyactiv 2.5. Not buttery smooth and a bit noisy but an excellent engine. Great midrange torque and 35-40 mpg if you drove it right. Our Highlanders 2.5 is smooth/quiet but the electric assist probably helps there.
Not to continue derailing, but I think we are starting to see a reversal of these environmental policies. EV are NOT living up to the promise...infrastructure is still slow to be adopted/built. There is some traction but I think society (esp the entrepreneurs, NGOs, and PACTs) were way too eager on becoming first movers. Now that EV tech has been out, the first movers/purchasers are starting to become incredibly critical on the stated mileage, charge, etc....also, more peer reviewed reports are starting to show up how much more DETRIMENTAL EV technology is to society. For example, EV vehicles are much heavier with significantly more torque than the traditional ICE analog causing additional tire wear and pollution.
All about compromises...some seem more than others.
All about compromises...some seem more than others.
Hiluxforever
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To be fair we can only support a slow transition with our given infrastructure.
I actually used to dream of a world where demand for ice cars collapse and I can actually afford an NSX. That's never gonna happen at this rate.
That is exactly thr problem. We have optimized our society and way of life around organic fuels like crude. We use it from medicine, electricity, clothing to housing. There is no way we can remove or lesson our dependence on it.
We need to accept the alternative solutions and let that markets dictate. Less policy and more entrepreneurship
We need to accept the alternative solutions and let that markets dictate. Less policy and more entrepreneurship
The Hybrid motor is only going to be sold in the USA and China. Those other markets will have diesels. The Hybrid battery is typically located in the passenger cabin (accessible through the cargo area not the underside of the vehicle). so if you are soaking the battery, you likely will have water in the cabin as well. Based on the history of the nameplate, until proven otherwise, I would give Toyota the benefit of the doubt that they thought this powertrain through enough not to have obvious and easily preventable points of failure like water getting to the high voltage battery.
The EPA will always remove all the fun, so IMO it's not the government, it's the pushback from the American public, too.
You can't force stuff down Americans' throats. They can't even give away these new MBs at the lot, they are stacked with $12,500 discount stickers plastered all over.
The world is moving away from fossil fuels. Electrified vehicles are here to stay. There are going to be growing pains. The move isn't always going to be direct and linear. But there should be little doubt where it's going. Those markets will follow. The ones that are heavy dependent on oil (ME and Russia) will be slow to follow. But they're really immaterial to world markets once the rest move away from oil for fuel.
For me the best current technology is PHEV for the bridge period. Evs easily out perform ice on everything except range. PHEV solves that issue. I think the only reason these aren't PHEV is Toyotas lack of battery capacity.
For me the best current technology is PHEV for the bridge period. Evs easily out perform ice on everything except range. PHEV solves that issue. I think the only reason these aren't PHEV is Toyotas lack of battery capacity.
Here are my thoughts on the powertrain.
I've read through most of the comments on the thread and ostensibly most people fall into two camps. Pro electric and anti-electric. I happen to fall into the latter, but also recognize the direction the world is headed whether I like it or not. No matter much one group tries to convince the other of it's superiority, it will continue to fall on deaf ears. I recognize the numbers are great and blah, blah, blah... it's just not for me and never will be regardless of whatever MPG or torque curve numbers you throw at me.
Recently my sister left on deployment and gave me her new Lexus RX hybrid to drive occasionally while she was gone. I drove it to work one time and never drove it again. While it had plenty of power, comfortable, etc. I absolutely hated as there was zero feeling in the steering, ride, or powertrain. It was the most sterile/disconnected driving experience I've ever had. But she loves it.
I've driven and owned A LOT of cars over the years and I've learned what I like and more importantly what I don't like in a vehicle. While I like a lot of what Toyota did bringing back cloth seats with manual adjustment and the tactile feel of switches and knobs throughout the cabin, nothing about going back to Land Cruiser origins (as they have so amply stated in advertising) screams hybrid. That said, they offer dual drivetrains throughout their line up. But not at least offering a conventional powertrain in the 250 feels like a bit of a slap in the face to more traditionalists like myself. It should have at least been an option.
Now I have to 3 options
1. Buy a 250 and tell Toyota I secretly, deep down always wanted a lifted Prius and thank you for making my dreams come true.
2. Forgo the cloth seats and simplicity in order to get the powertrain I want in a GX550 (and tell Toyota I want luxury, which I don't).
3. Keep the 3 LC's I have and continue bitching about Toyota's marketing decisions.
I've read through most of the comments on the thread and ostensibly most people fall into two camps. Pro electric and anti-electric. I happen to fall into the latter, but also recognize the direction the world is headed whether I like it or not. No matter much one group tries to convince the other of it's superiority, it will continue to fall on deaf ears. I recognize the numbers are great and blah, blah, blah... it's just not for me and never will be regardless of whatever MPG or torque curve numbers you throw at me.
Recently my sister left on deployment and gave me her new Lexus RX hybrid to drive occasionally while she was gone. I drove it to work one time and never drove it again. While it had plenty of power, comfortable, etc. I absolutely hated as there was zero feeling in the steering, ride, or powertrain. It was the most sterile/disconnected driving experience I've ever had. But she loves it.
I've driven and owned A LOT of cars over the years and I've learned what I like and more importantly what I don't like in a vehicle. While I like a lot of what Toyota did bringing back cloth seats with manual adjustment and the tactile feel of switches and knobs throughout the cabin, nothing about going back to Land Cruiser origins (as they have so amply stated in advertising) screams hybrid. That said, they offer dual drivetrains throughout their line up. But not at least offering a conventional powertrain in the 250 feels like a bit of a slap in the face to more traditionalists like myself. It should have at least been an option.
Now I have to 3 options
1. Buy a 250 and tell Toyota I secretly, deep down always wanted a lifted Prius and thank you for making my dreams come true.
2. Forgo the cloth seats and simplicity in order to get the powertrain I want in a GX550 (and tell Toyota I want luxury, which I don't).
3. Keep the 3 LC's I have and continue bitching about Toyota's marketing decisions.
bla bla bla....
"There has been a fair amount of comment online about the hybrid motor not being serviceable in the field. We might be forgetting one important fact, and that is that this is a vehicle built and tested by Toyota, and the Toyota Motor Corporation earned the most JD Power model-level awards for dependability in 2023, and a company which has built it’s reputation on legendary reliability; a well-maintained vehicle should be more than up to the task of taking you and your loved ones to Gualeguaychú (Argentina), and back."
"There has been a fair amount of comment online about the hybrid motor not being serviceable in the field. We might be forgetting one important fact, and that is that this is a vehicle built and tested by Toyota, and the Toyota Motor Corporation earned the most JD Power model-level awards for dependability in 2023, and a company which has built it’s reputation on legendary reliability; a well-maintained vehicle should be more than up to the task of taking you and your loved ones to Gualeguaychú (Argentina), and back."
I think it more the ‘muddy middle’ of any technological change. Fossil fuels for normal passenger cars are going the way of the dodo.
People should stop calling this powertrain a hybrid, it's a mild-hybrid and that has nothing in common with a regular hybrid of a Prius or Rav4.
A regular hybrid is a parallel architecture of the 2 engines and can give this feeling of being disconnected because the speed of the ICE is somewhat independent of your acceleration input and speed of the vehicle.
A mild-hybrid is a serial architecture of the 2 engines, it really is a starter motor always connected to the ICE and that not only help the engine to start but also to accelerate (so not so different from any ICE that has a starter). The ICE will always move accordingly to your acceleration input and speed of the vehicle, it can't disconnect.
Mild-hybrid also has a far smaller battery and electrical motor, the total effect of the electrical drivetrain is a very small compared to the ICE.
If you were to be put behind the wheel of a mild-hybrid vehicle without knowing it, you would not notice it's a mild-hybrid instead of a regular ICE, you would only think the motor is slightly more powerful than it is really.
Not sure of the legislation in the US, but in the EU mild-hybrids are not legally considered as hybrids/EV. They don't benefit from any of the tax breaks, sale bonuses, or advantages (like access or free parking in some cities).
In conclusion, you can hate EV and/or hybrids and still have the right to like this Land Cruiser without giving-up on your beliefs
A regular hybrid is a parallel architecture of the 2 engines and can give this feeling of being disconnected because the speed of the ICE is somewhat independent of your acceleration input and speed of the vehicle.
A mild-hybrid is a serial architecture of the 2 engines, it really is a starter motor always connected to the ICE and that not only help the engine to start but also to accelerate (so not so different from any ICE that has a starter). The ICE will always move accordingly to your acceleration input and speed of the vehicle, it can't disconnect.
Mild-hybrid also has a far smaller battery and electrical motor, the total effect of the electrical drivetrain is a very small compared to the ICE.
If you were to be put behind the wheel of a mild-hybrid vehicle without knowing it, you would not notice it's a mild-hybrid instead of a regular ICE, you would only think the motor is slightly more powerful than it is really.
Not sure of the legislation in the US, but in the EU mild-hybrids are not legally considered as hybrids/EV. They don't benefit from any of the tax breaks, sale bonuses, or advantages (like access or free parking in some cities).
In conclusion, you can hate EV and/or hybrids and still have the right to like this Land Cruiser without giving-up on your beliefs
Thanks, that was fun. I went back to the beginning. Let's take a journey back to 2007 and see what 'Mud had to say about the 200 series:
- "The interior is icky. My '99 100 has a classy interior. That one does not."
- "Their is alot of electronic crap on the 08 that i would hate to try and fix after warranty expiration. Hate the exterior, what was toyota thinking, first the FJ, and now this! very sad indeed. "
- "The new cruiser looks to be a horrible excuse for a "so called" Land Cruiser. Toyota's designers have obviously lost it, at least in the terms of the exterior. Unless the pictures of the '08 LC are terribly flawed, then it looks like the RR will again be tops in the luxury SUV world, and my $$ will be going twards a 2007 Range Rover S/C"
- "The LX570 is a hideous looking pos"
- "Looks like a Subaru to me! Wouldn't be something I'd have any interest in."
- "It's a Highlander on steroids! Center stack looks like a bad boombox you see for sale in Walmart."
- "Fugly! : ("
- "amazing, you guys are applauding Toyota for offering a base vehicle price of $64K. Very impressive, Toyota, just impressive. Oh, by the way, everyone buying this, don't start crying when the 4-runner, FJ and GX start offering these 'new' features and charge nothing more than 1-3%."
- " This new LC sounds like a techno nighmare waiting to happen. Thank god they test a lot of the stuff in the Lexus LX before making there debut in the LC, but it sure as hell makes me nervous knowing Murphy's law is in full effect with so many things that COULD GO WRONG WILL GO WRONG no matter how reliable the vehicle."
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Do you have a source for that information? Everything I’ve read and analyzed in my personal and professional life says transportation CO2 emissions are the largest contributor with light duty emissions being a big part of the sector.
CBO analysis shows transportation as the largest slice of the pie at 38% in 2021. https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2022-12/58566-co2-emissions-transportation.pdf
Emissions of Carbon Dioxide in the Transportation Sector
At a Glance The largest source of emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2, the most common greenhouse gas) in the United States is the transportation sector. Emissions from transportation surpassed emissions from the electric power sector five years ago and now constitute two-fifths of domestic...
www.cbo.gov
According to this, the light duty vehicle sector is the largest CO2 emitting portion of the transportation sector at 58%.
I would very much like to know where you got your information from.
That’s actually incorrect. Mild hybrids tend to be 15kW of electrical assist or less and tend to utilize only 48V batteries and belt-alternator assist (BAS) or crank starter generator (CSG) assist. The 2.4L turbo hybrid in the new Land Cruiser falls into the (weaker side of) strong hybrid category given its 48hp of assist (36kW) and high voltage battery (over 60V with those orange cables under hood. Strong or mild hybrid is separate from electric motor position, whether it’s P1, P2, or the parallel 2 motor setups like on the Prius.People should stop calling this powertrain a hybrid, it's a mild-hybrid and that has nothing in common with a regular hybrid of a Prius or Rav4.
A regular hybrid is a parallel architecture of the 2 engines and can give this feeling of being disconnected because the speed of the ICE is somewhat independent of your acceleration input and speed of the vehicle.
A mild-hybrid is a serial architecture of the 2 engines, it really is a starter motor always connected to the ICE and that not only help the engine to start but also to accelerate (so not so different from any ICE that has a starter). The ICE will always move accordingly to your acceleration input and speed of the vehicle, it can't disconnect.
Mild-hybrid also has a far smaller battery and electrical motor, the total effect of the electrical drivetrain is a very small compared to the ICE.
If you were to be put behind the wheel of a mild-hybrid vehicle without knowing it, you would not notice it's a mild-hybrid instead of a regular ICE, you would only think the motor is slightly more powerful than it is really.
Not sure of the legislation in the US, but in the EU mild-hybrids are not legally considered as hybrids/EV. They don't benefit from any of the tax breaks, sale bonuses, or advantages (like access or free parking in some cities).
In conclusion, you can hate EV and/or hybrids and still have the right to like this Land Cruiser without giving-up on your beliefs
SAE has the definitions of these things in some J doc somewhere if you’re interested. I believe both CARB and the US EPA have drawn on those definitions to delineate the different types of electrified vehicles whether it’s micro hybrid, mild hybrid, plug-in hybrid, battery electric, fuel cell electric, or plug-in fuel cell electric.
The weight issue is likely short lived relative to conventional ICE counterparts. Look at the new BMW M3 Competion xDrive. The Tesla Model 3 Performance, which I would consider a vehicle of similar size and close in performance in some aspects, is only slightly heavier.
BMW M3 xDrive Competion - 3,990lbs
Tesla Model 3 Performance - 4,048lbs
Difference - 58lbs
It’s unclear if the curb weight for the BMW includes a fuel load or not.
New info on new solid state battery tech from CATL, Prologium, and a few other companies is starting to pop up as those things start to be produced in pre production automotive size cells for testing. It’s looks possible that the battery packs could be 40% more energy dense. That same energy content pack in the Model 3 would become 300lbs lighter putting it down in line with the previous gen RWD BMW M3s.
In the context of the Lamd Cruiser, take the 2020 200 series. Its curb weight is listed at 5,815lbs. Consider a Rivian R1S as a similar vehicle. The curb weight for the Rivian is 7,068lbs. That’s the quad motor version with the long range (but not max range) pack. Quite a big difference. Rivian will likely drop a bit of weight with the dual motor version and further optimization of the vehicle as they iterate through the design. A next gen battery like what I mentioned above would likely drop at least 500lbs from the battery. Point being is that R1S is starting to get a lot close to that Land Cruiser in weight not too far into the future. And the weight reduction in both cases would either lead to increased range, or range could be held constant and the energy capacity (and more weight) could be reduced.
The report you linked is listing percentages of US emissions. Globally, the transportation sector is @14% of emissions, not the 38% it is in the US. The global transportation sector includes both passenger and cargo air travel, all shipping, all railroad, all trucking, as well as public transport in busses etc. Light Duty personal use vehicles are about half of the global transport sector (versus 58% of the USA transportation sector) = 7% of total emissions. I have seen the stat of half of transportation coming from personal use cars and trucks multiple times from multiple sources, and logically it makes sense if the figure is 58% of transportation in the USA where everyone has multiple cars and drives daily.Do you have a source for that information? Everything I’ve read and analyzed in my personal and professional life says transportation CO2 emissions are the largest contributor with light duty emissions being a big part of the sector.
CBO analysis shows transportation as the largest slice of the pie at 38% in 2021. https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2022-12/58566-co2-emissions-transportation.pdf
Emissions of Carbon Dioxide in the Transportation Sector
At a Glance The largest source of emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2, the most common greenhouse gas) in the United States is the transportation sector. Emissions from transportation surpassed emissions from the electric power sector five years ago and now constitute two-fifths of domestic...
According to this, the light duty vehicle sector is the largest CO2 emitting portion of the transportation sector at 58%.
I would very much like to know where you got your information from.
Of emissions in the USA, light duty cars and trucks make up a bigger % of our emissions, because we drive more than the typical human on earth, and because our electricity generation is cleaner than average, due to less reliance on coal. Other reasons our emissions % from cars and trucks is higher is that we have pushed much of the high emissions manufacturing to China and other emerging markets.
Cars and trucks in the US represent around 2.8% of global emissions….almost half of the 7% global total from our 350 million people.
If you Google search global emissions, versus US emissions, you can find multiple sources for these figures, although most articles are written to support climate change action so you have to dig in them to pull actual figures. Holman Jenkins in the Wall Street Journal has written extensively on this topic, and what a sham electric vehicles are in terms of making a meaningful dent in global emissions. A quick search shows transportation at 7.6billion tons globally, out of 40.8 billion total - 18% versus the 14% I quoted, for the year 2021. Transport was obviously much lower in 2020. None of these figures are precise because they can’t be and are variable.
You can back into similar numbers from the report you linked. Total USA emissions 4.6billion, transportation sector 38% of that, cars & trucks 58% of that is just over 1 billion tons. Global emissions 40.8 billion…so cars and trucks in the USA are around 2.5% of global emissions…similar to the 2.8% I previously quoted. But the report doesn’t make it easy, because it’s written to support an agenda and defend CAFE standards.
The elephant in global emissions is electricity generation. If we were at all serious about reducing emissions, we would have a major push towards nuclear energy. Even solar and wind are less efficient than advertised when you include both the carbon footprint of building and shipping the equipment, AND dismantling and disposing/recycling after it’s useful life…windmills weigh an incredible amount, and they don’t last indefinitely. You will not dramatically reduce manmade CO2 without nuclear. But that doesn’t fit the grift, so it’s not talked about.
China and India are building coal plants as quickly as they can, and using that energy to build us crap (including solar panels). They then ship the crap they build across oceans in ships burning bunker oil, some of the worst pollutants there are. Less oil demand from us means cheaper oil for developing nations, which will increase its use there. But it sure feels warm and fuzzy to buy a Tesla.
In summary, personal use cars and trucks are around 7%of global emissions. An electric car still has a large carbon footprint in mining for minerals used in batteries, in recycling that battery at end of life, etc. Not to mention the CO2 of the electricity used. If everyone magically drove electric cars tomorrow, global CO2 emissions would be reduced by a few percent. It is an absurd place to focus resources if the goal is emissions reduction. But nuclear isn’t popular with greens. And virtue signaling feels good. So we get the grift.
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This is why the LX fails. Against the Escalade, Grand Wagoneer, Denali, etc. it can’t compete with any them. Being based off a platform intended for offroading, it’s dimensions are constrained to make it manageable on trail whereas all of the others are gargantuan in order to maximize passenger space. Then you have the driveline components further extending that loss by being tucked away up into the grace rail whereas the others take the opposite route of dropping everything down low as possible since they have no basis for off-roading. Every review trying to compare the LX to any of those always finds it in dead last place, with sales figures reflecting how poorly off a choice that marketing alignment is. What Lexus should have done was go back to the original intention with the LX as a luxury off-roader and let it fairly compete as a Range Rover Sport competitor. That would have slimmed down its competition considerably as well as allowing it to play to its strengths. With the lack of a tailgate further removing distinct LC/LX features, don’t be surprised if the LX doesn’t make it to a 5th generation.
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