3FE better than 2F (2 Viewers)

[agent orange]

Mopar uses shaft rockers, i bet you could use a set of something like Jesel rockers too, of course if you wanna drop 700-800 bucks on rockers i suppose you might wanna find something other than a cruiser to put it on.

Thats interesting about the SBC valves, my valvetrain is in pretty good shape but if i ever decide to get it milled as i thought about then i may look into those. Oh, and while im on the subject, if you were to raise the compression on a 2f or 3f, what do you think would be optimal? I was thinking 9.5 would be about right without pinging or anything.

 

[overhanger]

I'd say it depends on what part of the country you are in or, more specifically, what octane rating your premium is and if an ethanol misture is mandatory. When I had my 3FE rebuilt, I went the max OEM piston size, 1.5 mm over stock bore and had the head milled by an equal amount which converts to .060". Robbie Antonson, the engine builder, calculated the new compression to be about 9.3 or so and the new displacement at about 4300cc - bigger than a stock 2F. Anyway, with ethanolized 91 octane, that's what we get in Colorado, pinging has been a sore spot since the rebuild. The engine is right at the brink of detonation with cheap gas and is happier with one of the "top tier" petrols. Air temp affects the pinging too, the hotter it is the more prone it is to ping. I've been able to buy 93 octane only a couple of times in the last four years and the engine was happier with it. I can also get non-ethanolized gas outside of the front range and that really perks performance up and drops pinging out of the picture most often. Sometimes I'll mix in about six gallons of 100 octane to bump up the 91 to around 93 and the truck responds very favorably to that as well. Octane boosters don't really seem to have much positive effect although I do keep a bottle or two of Amsoil Octane boost when one of the stations "accidently" puts 87 octane in the premium tanks. By the way, who is responsible for monitoring the different grades the oil companies sell us and do they really assure us that we get what we are paying for?

Mopar uses shaft rockers, i bet you could use a set of something like Jesel rockers too, of course if you wanna drop 700-800 bucks on rockers i suppose you might wanna find something other than a cruiser to put it on.

Thats interesting about the SBC valves, my valvetrain is in pretty good shape but if i ever decide to get it milled as i thought about then i may look into those. Oh, and while im on the subject, if you were to raise the compression on a 2f or 3f, what do you think would be optimal? I was thinking 9.5 would be about right without pinging or anything.

 

[Aseif007]

My 3FE has 9.1:1 compression and with California regular gas it would ping. With the "premium" the pinging stops but I don;t have enough miles on it yet or have finished tinkering with it enough to say for sure. I too had machine work done but only went for the 1MM over stock bore. Whe it goes into my FJ-60 I will have a better idea of what the motor feels like in front of a manual. I am sure it is going to be much much better to drive than the A440F. A great tranny, but for a different motor. But with proper maintenance it will go at least 250,000+ miles as mine went 300,000 before being retired becuase of an overly warn output shaft. I'll admit though that the 240,000 mile 2F that was in my FJ-60 was fun to drive. It was probably the stick but I just felt like I was more in control of the cruiser. In the future I will try the 3FE injection on the 2F becase of all the rave reviews I have heard.

 

[agent orange]

I was thinking about getting the crank offest ground as much as possible using a 0.010 over bearing, zero decking the block (depending on what thickness gasket these motors use), and shaving the head enough to get it around the 9.5 range. We get pretty solid 93 octane for premium around here, like statewide, and i figure that getting the piston/head clearance down to minimal would help with any detonation that might be lurking. Toss some nice undercut SBC valves, clean up the heads, gasket match everything. Im kinda intrigued to see how much torque you could get out of it, might be interesting to work with an unusual combination.

 

[overhanger]

Mark Whatley has gone on record stating that milling the head up to .1" is not going to cause any clearance problems. Gasket matching does help and the heads lend themselves to some mild porting too. The I-6 will never have the power of a SBC but it can be made to haul ass AND pull stumps pretty good. Wish I had access to 93 octane on a regular basis however.
Regarding my bitch about questionable oil company practices messing with octane ratings, oddly enough there was a story on the local Denver news last night about just that. A station in Ft. Collins was busted recently for having all three octane grade tanks filled with regular grade gas. Gee, I'll bet they were the only station to ever do anything like that! Or get busted anyway. The last two tanks of 91 that I have put in the Cruiser have not caused any pinging so maybe the oil companies got the message. I can only hope.

 

[PabloCruise]

I'm in the Fort - what station was it?

 

[overhanger]

Valero? Not a station I'm familiar with but they can only sell regular grade now and the company has gotten rid of the leasee of the station.

 

[agent orange]

Ok, so up to .1 inch of milling and the valves will still clear the pistons, that nice to know. How does pushrod length work out when you angle mill?

Oh, and Jim C said something about SBC valves fitting without much issue. Would a 0.1 over valve or something of that nature help out with the pushrod length or rocker geometry? Basically ive gotta replace the valve cover this weekend and im gonna give the valves and seals a little checkup while im in there. If anything needs replacing i thought about milling the head and cleaning everything up as far as gasket matching goes, tossing some nice new valves in there, and hopefully i can get a little more oomph out of the old girl.

 

[overhanger]

Maybe Jim C or Mark W can answer your questions. I took Mark's answer about how much to mill to include no problems being created with pushrod lenghts as well but that might be presumptous.

 

[meigsrock]

2F-3FE engine combination = (2FE)

Regarding a 2F block and 3FE head: (Updated 3/8/06)

I have done a lot of research on the 2F and 3FE engines (FJ60, FJ62, FJ80) and found the following:

2F (I do not know what years of 2F engine this aplies to but I think it is for 1981-87)
bore x stroke = 94 x 101.6mm (From Toyota Factory 1988 update manual)
compression ratio = 7.8:1 (From Toyota Factory 1988 update manual)
engine head chamber volume 89.8089cc (calculated using flat pistons and 2mm thick head gasket)
4230cc = 258.1ci = 4.2L (From Toyota Factory 1988 update manual and calculations)

3FE (1988-92)
bore x stroke = 94 x 95mm (From Toyota Factory 1988 update manual)
compression ratio = 8.1:1 (From Toyota Factory 1988 update manual)
engine head chamber volume 78.9766cc (From Toyota Factory 1988 update manual and calculations)

3955cc = 241.3ci = 3.9L or 4.0?

Using this data, if you put a stock 3FE head on a stock 2F block you would get a compression ratio of 8.5933:1.

So here are my questions for the experts (because I do not have the engine manuals yet):

1)
I have heard that from 1980-1984 2F engines have a 2F head and 1985-87 2F engines have a 3F head.
So, does this mean that the 3f and 3fe head chamber size is different?
or
Is the compression ratio in a 1985-87 2F is 8.5933:1?
or
Did they change to a shorter piston to reduce the CR back down to 7.8:1?
or
Other?

2)
I know the 3fe pistons are shorter, can anyone tell me if they will fit on a 2f connecting rod (same wrist pin size?)?
What I found is that the pistons are not interchangeable because the piston type and diston in diameter size changed.
If they will fit can someone tell me how much shorter they are than the 2f pistons?
They will not fit.
Are both the late 2F and 3FE pistons flat? (FJ60, FJ62, FJ80)
Yes
3)
Has anyone driving a 2F block-3FE head engine had any problems with detonation?

What octane do you have to run? (I found 1 person who runs 89 octane with no problems)

4)
Does anyone know how much more horsepower raising the CR to 8.5933:1 and adding fuel injection adds?

I am going to swap engines and I am trying to figure out if I should do the combo or just put the stock 3FE in my fj60.

Other notes:
Measurements of the height of each block:

3F = 9.2" = 233mm
2F = 11.4" = 289mm

I also noted that I have to use the 2F lifters, side cover, and maybe a water pump. }

I will keep updating this post as I find new data / info.
Take the info here with a grain of salt untill I can get the details sorted out.
Brian (meigsrock)

Helpful or confusing links, you decide.
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/pit/9975/dataBySubject/GasolineEngines.html#F-series
http://www.off-road.com/tlc/faq/engine.html#HD_NM_17
http://www.golenengineservice.com/html/calculators.html

PS. If you own a Chilton's Toyota Trucks 1970-88 I do not think that the Engine and Engine Overhaul General Engine Specification on P.3-24 are accurate. (IMOP)

 

[meigsrock]

Camshaft choises

Camshafts for these engines:

What kind of cam is best for the 2f for:
street driving
4x4ing
combo street and 4x4

What kind of cam is best for the 3fe for:
street driving
4x4ing
combo street and 4x4

What kind of cam is best for the 2f-3fe combo engine (2fe) for:
street driving
4x4ing
combo street and 4x4

 

[Stumpalama]

It's a shame these questions never got answered. I'd be interested in the thought of those who could answer them.