350 tpi help

[jim land]

ok let start , i have a 77 fj40 and my carb 350 sbc is dead , it is mated to a downey bell and 4 speed , i just buy a 87 tpi firebird 5.7l . and i have read all i could find on mud for about a week
at first i was to buy an intake to put my holley 670 truck avenger
but since the engine is complete i said why not switch to efi
(sorry for my bad english ,im french)
1. wiring harness with ecm (computer): painless $$ or howell ?
dont want to mess with prom and chip ,fast and easy
2. vss : jag , painless , or downey if i can find one

3. fuel pump : for now it gone be inline with stock location tank
(poly replacement ) maybe s10 later, but i want to drive it
this summer. i have a 3/8 efi rubber hose in the tank ,90°brass
on the top and 5/16 return hose . DO I NEED A SURG TANK
or it is possible without one
4. air pump: i plan to remove it and all the hose that is connect
to it , its ok?
ok tankyou ,i will be back with pic and more question

 

[fyresq]

I run a Howell (on an 89 TBI Fj40) and am happy with it. They also can supply a fuel pump with their kits. I believe you need around 40 psi fuel pressure with tpi so rubber vs. hard fuel lines is an issue.

On your air pump question - there is a kit out there to eliminate it (new pulley etc.) or you could just take the guts out.

 

[lone gunman]

OK #1 wire harness, do you have a complete factory one ? if you do you can convert it to work. depends on your electrical skill level. but after market harnesses are kinda the same, painless or howell both are well made i would have no problem using either one. i used pianless because it came with my TPI set up i got off of eBay. and if you search eBay for TPI there are several people selling them that have a good reputation and you can come across a painless harness from time to time too. and your ECM will work fine but if you use the factory chip and eliminate any of the factory emission stuff you will throw codes. you can get your chip reprogramed by this guy Tuned Port Injection he does good work and hangs out on www.pirate4x4.com and goes by the name MrWillys and should be around $65.00 to $75.00 to do it + or - or spend big bucks and just buy it complete (harness and prom chip) from howell or painless your call. and being its an 87 you should not have to worry about VATS (vehicle anti theft system) in your stock prom chip. 89 and up had the VATS system (firebird and camaro) corvettes got it in 85 or 86

OK #2 VSS i got mine from jags that run along with his book (lots of info) he had the best price but any one will work as long as it is 2000 pulse per mile. what tranny are you going to run or transfer case ? you can get them metric threaded for your toyota transfer case or sae for a chevy transmission. i run it off of my toyota transfer case.

OK #3 fuel pump, you have a rubber hose hanging inside the tank for your pick up line ? this might not be good. i would recomend a steel line in the tank if possible as low as you can get it. and it is possible to run without the surge tank but not recomended buy the conversion crowd. a surge tank is the better way to keep the hi pressure pump from running dry and if you get air to the injecters your engine will spit and sputter until the air bubbles clear. i would recomend the tank and you can build it cheap your self or buy it off eBay or another vender i linked in the other TPI posts.

OK #4 air pump, as i stated above (post 1) as long as you run a custom chip yes you can remove it with no problems (codes) the main things to keep are the knock sensor, oxygen sensor for closed loop operation and VSS along with TPS, MAF, intake air temp sensor and coolant temp sensor. you can program out the EGR and chorcoal can if you want to i did. other then that i tink thats it. feel free to PM me again if you have more questions and yes the guys and gals love pics so post them when you get a chance.

 

[jim land]

i only have the engine ,so i need the computer and wiring harness
i call painless and the ''perfect''kit is complete , i just need the vss , maybe the metric at jag , i use stock 4 speed and tc ,
a h55f next winter . also i need to weld a fitting for the o2
where is the best place on over the frame headers ? (ramhorn soon) painless said that i dont need to mess with prom and chip
(plug and play) is howell is as easy to use ? painless is$$$ but i want the most complete .

i have to read more about surg tank to find the best for me

and for the coolant hose from the oil filter ,do i need to ad a fitting on the radiator ? (2 for the heater and one on the radiator)

i have more question soon

 

[Elbert]

I don't know specifics about the tune port setup, but I don't see how you can get it to run right without getting the PCM reprogrammed. Think about it this way... the stock PCM (engine control module) is going to look for all the stock sensors and inputs it expects to see when you turn the key and try to start the engine. When the PCM does not "see" the inputs and sensors it starte setting trouble codes and even if it were to start it would not run right. The programming of the PCM is what adjust for the things you no longer have or plan to sue.

If you have to pass smog tests / emission check then you need to really understand what impact you engine swap is going to do..I suspect its not a problem since you had a carbed 350, in that case I would get rid of all the smog crap (as long as you are not required to have it for inspections or emissions testing).

Fuel pump...remember on electric fuel pumps the pressure side is between the pump and the engine...not between the tank and the pump.

I have a painless harness on my 5.7 Vortec... the painless harness is well made but in my instance (Painless) did not know what specific PCMS worked with their harness.

You need a engine control module that mates with your particular engine. I would go with an aftermarket standalone engine wiring harness for simplicity sake, rather than trying to figure out a stock GM harness.

I would also call around or email the guy you want to program you PCM and tell them what you plan to do, so that they can tell you whats possible as far as programming and let you know what sensors you will have to retain. You might also go to the painless web site, figure oout what harness they sale that matches your engine, and then go download the instrucations from their web site, even if you don't use it...they have good instructions that will help you down the road.

Most of the emissions crap can be programmed out, You'll need your O2 sensors, all your fuel and air related sensors, plus a VSS.

You'll need a good electronic fuel pump..check out these guys http://www.aztpi.com/index.shtml
Give them a call and he can advise you on what you need.

I used rams horn exhaust manifolds on my truck, you might use those or block hugger style headers.

 

[lone gunman]

OK i looked at the painless kit Painless Performance: PERFECT®™ CalTool w/ 65104 and looks good but makes no mention of needing the VSS some companies program that out which i don't care for. but you talked to them and they said you still need it so OK. and it is MAP and not MAF no big deal really but not as tolerant to cam changes. and it states no need for chip reprogramming on stock engine. you need to ask them if you have to use all the stock emmisions in order for it to work properly. or will it throw codes if you don't. and the VSS from jags is fine for your install. but you need to ask if you need the 2000 or 4000 pulse per mile with this harness because MAP is different then the MAf. I use the stock toyota 4 speed transmission and transfer case.

on headers you need to weld a bung into the collector or right after it in the exhaust pipe as close as you can get to the collector. but because of this you will have to go to the heated 02 sensor, not a big deal just an extra + wire to hook up to an ignition (key on) power source. and it is because the exhaust gases are not hot enough at that point to heat the 02 sensor. on a ram horn manifold you weld the bung as close to the exhaust manifold as you can in the exhaust pipe were it bolts to the manifold. and that one does not need to be heated because of how close it is to the head and hot exhaust gases.

i have never used the howell harness but have heard good things about it and it should be just as easy to work with. you might PM Gimmie Green because i believe he used the howell set up and he was happy with it the last i heard.

and personally i would eliminate the coolant hose from the oil filter. it is not really needed for your set up. and your heater hoses should hook up on the engine and not the radiator. so no need for radiator modification.

and arizona TPI is a great place to get all your an-6 fittings and other specialty items. they have generic fittings and they are half the price of name brand stuff. i got all my fittings from them but you can beat there price on the walbro gsl392 hi pressure fuel pump on ebay (i did)

 

[fyresq]

Howell and painless seem to be in the same price ranges

Might want to take a look at www.affordable-fuel-injection.com as well

 

[jim land]

i take this on painless web site (#65104)

A compact, waterproof Tunws Port Injection engine control module, dyno-tested for maximum horsepower and then tuned for drivability by Painless Performance®™. NOTE: Calibration to be used with stock GM Tuned Port Injected 5.0L & 5.7L engines from 1985-1992 Camaro/Firebird & Corvette. Absolutely no programming of the computer is required to run these stock engines - just plug-and-play.

and for the vss ,it is the techline men that said it maybe better to use one

ok i have to go back to work

 

[lone gunman]

OK Jim, yeah it is better to use the VSS if possible. it controls idle speed when slowing down to stop and will help to keep the engine from stalling. and it tells the ECM vehicle speed. and i forgot to add something about the heated oxygen sensor. they are three wire. as stated above one is a + postive to ignition imput and one is ground and the other will be for the signal from the sensor.

you might also consider getting there hook up for a laptop computer too. its nice to see how your engine is performing and if its adjustable at all you can tweek the performance a bit. its nice to be able to tweek the performance. but its not really necasary if you are not sure about messing with it.

oh and i wanted to add that your cruiser looks great!

 

[jim land]

ok more question :im ready to order the painless kit (#65104)
the kit i$ complete with a pre-calibrated small
waterproof ecm , the probleme is that i need
a 40 pulse VSS , painless got it, but not metric
where to buy that or an adapter to metric

i ear my old holley carb tell me how simple it
could be to keep it old school , but i want the
tpi

 

[lone gunman]

so there set up needs a 40 pulse not the 4 pulse (4000 pulse per mile) that might be a problem. the only ones i know of are for 1993 and newer chevy trucks and 1994 and newer chevy cars with automatic transmissions. V8 conversion manuals, parts for V8 S10, Datzun Z, Jaguar, Chevy TPI & TBI, Colorado, Astro Van V8, Volvo 200 & 700 only has the metric 2 pulse (2000 pulse per mile) and the 4 pulse (4000 pulse per mile) you might want to PM Jim on here, he used to own downey off road and may have a solution for you. he goes by Downey on here. have you looked into the howell set up ? what does there set up use ? or you might have to re think it and go with a custom harness and chip in a stock ECM you can get the harness on eBay and this guy has them from time to time Corvette Camaro Firebird TPI harness tune tuned port : eBay Motors (item 110508403035 end time Mar-23-10 08:15:08 PDT) and the ECM are on there all the time and contact the guy i listed above for a chip.

 

[jim land]

vss

i find more info , this morning i call painless again, the kit 65104
need a 40 pulse vss 60117 (its not a mistake) and the techline
guy told me to call abbott Abbott Enterprises - GPS tracking - Hubodometer - ATROL - Tachometer - Vehicle Tracking - GPS Vehicle Tracking , i dont know if they can help me yet . all i need is an adapter ,is it 22mm on the post
74 t-case rigth ?

 

[jeffj40]

I bought the complete harness and ecm for my TPI from Affordable Fuel Injection. I think it was around $600 bucks...plug and play.

FWIW I could have spent hours reading online, shopped the junkyards, hacked up a harness from another vehicle and I'm sure it would have worked. It would have saved me a little money but my time is worth something too and it didnt make any sense to me.

My suggestion would be pay someone else to do the figuring for you and from what I read the VSS isn't all that neccesary if going with an aftermaket unit because it's programmed to work without one unlike using an ecm out of another vehicle.

Some or most might disagree.

Good luck

 

[lone gunman]

as jeffj40 siad affordable fuel injection looks pretty good! Affordable Fuel Injection - MPFI and TPI Wiring Harness you might check them out too. there complete kit with ecm and custom chip and all tne necessary harness conectors is only $560.00 (US) all you would need to find out is what type of VSS but it looks like the older style from the pics of the ECM and chip or this one http://www.affordable-fuel-injectio...detail&phpMyAdmin=25qeZGdH9dezkprAh7eSO9tDOae

 

[Alaska40]

I am going TBI so I don't know if that makes big difference in wiring, but I ordered my harness from Howell and they did a calibration prom on my harness. I guess that just closes the loop and prevents a code from being introduced. I'm new at this so I'm wondering if that will have any ill effects on engine performance.

I'm sorry if this is a hijack

 

[Elbert]

I don' t know how you can run fuel injection without a VSS and the engine perform to it's max potential? Maybe the aftermarket stuff works... I can tell you that with the GM engines... without a VSS ..the engine will run, but it will die at various times for no reason, it will not make near as much power, and it will not sense engine load. All of which I learned first hand.... when I was trying to come up with a VSS for my 5.7 vortec.

Two knowns in my book... you have to run all of the "main" sensors, and you have to run a VSS. YOu can get away from not running most if not all emissions crap, and potentially the rear 02 sensors, EGR. That's about it for stock GM setup..also requires modficaiton of the PCM unless you duplicate teh exact drive train and sensors from teh donor GM vehicle to inlude appropriate transmission.

Aftermarket stuff I don't have first hand experience with...if you can make good horsepower and everything runs correctly then I say that would be very nice... I would like to ride or drive a vehicle that had that setup if possible prior to purchase.

 

[Alaska40]

I have been following this thread because I am in the middle of this swap right now, I am just waiting for all of the components to arrive. I just talked to Howell again about the harness that I bought from them. FYI, I am using a TBI 350 from a 1991 Chevy K1500 and mating it to an SM 465. They told me that the calibrated PROM chip that is part of my harness will not only program out the vss but every other component that I will not be using for my application (Ex. EGR, knock sensor, etc). The harness is custom built for my applicaton so they program that chip accordingly. I have a friend using this exact setup in his Jeep and he is very satisfied with his engine performance.

Keep in mind, this is coming from a "learn as you go" mechanic.

 

[miker]

i think i need a new clutch:

I think something was not correct with your clutch components. From the picture, it looks like the pressure plate fingers where being contacted in the wrong place. Could be mismatched throwout bearing to pressure plate or maybe something on the clutch fork was making contact on the pressure plate.

I would definitely be suspect on how that was assembled or what components were used.

 

[Elbert]

Guys...

WOnder if you are speficially telling howell or others the acroymn VSS or are you spelling out what that is?

VSS = Vehicle Speed Sensor and then there is VATS... vehicle anti-theft..

VATS has to be removed on PCM wtih it with it, which I htink is reated to the wiring harness and the PCM, when doing swaps as it depends on a coded key to start.

As I stated above I have first hand experience with running a 5.7 Vortec without a functional VSS...it ran like crap, it would die at times, it would not sense engine load. The day I intsalled the VSS it was night and day difference.

I just don't follow how one "programs out" VSS on a GM PCM and how the PCM will control the engine correctly....maybe I'm just not informed...but it would seem to me that the PCM has to be able to recognize speed?

 

[Alaska40]

I definitely specified Vehicle Speed Sensor. Like I said, I am very new to this so I don't know the mechanics behind the PROM. Maybe I will make a third call to Howell on Monday for a deeper explanation.

When I originally called and ordered, they asked a few questions, mostly relating to whether or not I was going to keep the emissions related components. When I told him I was not keeping them he told me he was going to eliminate the VSS with the PROM. I read this thread 4 days later and called him back to ensure that I did not need a VSS and he guaranteed that I would not. If the engine runs poorly I guess I know where to start looking.