2024 GX/Prado Release and Discussion

[Jetboy]

I am curious to see if we will get 1GR 250 Prados in any markets on certain models.

Some markets do want an option for naturally aspirated reliable engines and the 1GR could have some life for another few years especially since its still available on the 300.
I can see the dual vvti 1GR eventually being discontinued from the 300 and Prado in a few years having turbo only lineups but you also have the single vvti 1GR still being produced for the 70 and I don't see what else could replace that for a vehicle like the 70.

Emission regulations are getting stricter in the Middle East so it'll depend on how long they can keep the old engined certified.

I think we'll see some GR version of the Prado globally. I was a bit surprised to see it carry on in the LC300, but since it's in the LC300 - it's a natural extension to also put it in the Prado and probably continue to make it available in the LC70 lineup. And Toyota is going to carry on producing the 2GR for the TX that was a big surprise to me - in a good way. It's a great engine to pair with the hybrid system. The 1GR may be Toyota's most reliable engine ever. And it's pretty fuel efficient in its comfort zone around 100hp output or less.. So, it's a pretty great engine for everywhere that doesn't require high cruising speeds for long distances. The biggest reason I would see it being dropped is if those markets end up just going all diesel. In most of the places the 1GR is sold, the diesel offerings are so much more popular and diesel fuel is easier to find so it becomes pretty skewed away from gasoline in general.

I don't think the 1GR is powerful enough to really work well in the USA. And it's not really peak power - it's the lack of efficiency at higher power output that's more accurately the problem. At high altitude it just doesn't have enough power for comfortable highway speeds and it ends up well out of its efficiency range. But if it were combined with the right hybrid - it could be pretty great. I just don't think they'll do it for the North America market because of the EPA test cycle favoritism of the small turbo engines.

For the USA - I'd bet that the LC250 will end up as a turbo4 hybrid very similar to the Tacoma hybrid. I think the Tacoma Trailhunter crossed with a GX550 is very close to what the LC250 will be. If we took a GX550, tightened up the plastics to improve the angles, added 1-2 inches of ride height and bypass shocks, add a front locker, and strip down the interior to a more base model trim - I think that's what the LC250 ends up as. If it can drop 300lbs over the GX,

A turbo v8 engine wouldn't cost materially more than a turbo 6 to manufacture. But there's not a chassis and drivetrain that's capable of handling the power in the Toyota family. Supposedly Toyota was developing or had developed an HD chassis for the Tundra and Sequoia that would have the Turbo v8 that Toyota patented 5 or so years ago. But Toyota pulled the plug on that program and opted to drop the Tundra and Sequoia onto the lighter duty GA-F platform in conjunction with the smaller turbo v6. The reasoning was supposedly because of the success of Tesla and a recognition that the future was trending that direction and it didn't make sense to tool up for an HD chassis that would have a relatively short lifespan. Even the current Tundra is unlikely to be viable in 10 years. It's probably an interim product to bridge a gap to a next gen truck that's more electrified. As is the GX550. If Lexus keeps its word on all Lexus models being EVs by 2030 - it'll only be produced for 6-7 years as a Lexus.

 

[UZJ100LC]

. Even the current Tundra is unlikely to be viable in 10 years. It's probably an interim product to bridge a gap to a next gen truck that's more electrified. As is the GX550. If Lexus keeps its word on all Lexus models being EVs by 2030 - it'll only be produced for 6-7 years as a Lexus.

Man, really makes me think twice before buying a GX550 or the new LC. The next car I buy I want to be my last.

 

[Brown98LC]

I actually think the 300 series platform will last well into the 2030s.

I won't talk about the GX/Tundra because they are geared for the US market but I see the lc300 & next gen Prado lasting well into atleast the first half of the 2030s. (With many updates ofcourse...probably a major facelift for the lc300 towards the end of this decade and a minor one soon?)

 

[Jetboy]

I think the Toyota LC version may last beyond 2030 as well. Not sure about the Tundra. I don't think it'll be emissions legal by 2030 in the USA. The V35A just isn't very efficient and I think in the real world testing it'll be too thirsty/inefficient for the USA EPA regs. I can see a future for the Tundra as a PHEV with something like a turbo 4. But I think it's pretty clear to everyone that there's no future for a 12mpg turbo or supercharged v8 light duty truck. It makes sense that Toyota dropped the idea if it wasn't going to either build a diesel HD version or have some clear path forward with a heavier chassis that didn't involve low double digit mpg.

 

[ThRiLlGmYr]

It will have the drivetrain from the Taco — turbo 4 with optional hybrid. If it had a turbo V8 it would cost over $100k, fuel economy would be horrid, and you would be bitching about the price and the poor range.

As for 35s? No thank you very much. I have 33” KO2s for my 200, and they weigh nearly 70 lbs mounted. My back hurts just thinking about changing a 35” tire.

I assumed he meant the twin turbo diesel V-8. No way they bring a diesel over now. I have zero doubt it will be one of their new twin turbo engines, either the four cylinder or six cylinder. My money is on 4Runner getting the 4cyl and the LC going up market with the 6 cyl (with the Max hybrid at top for each). I think SR5 4Runners will get 4cyl Turbos while TRD Pro, Trailhunter, and possibly limited will get Max engines. I think the LC will essentially have one model, equivalent to the Trailhunter, and will have the V-6 twin turbo and an optional Max engine tbd.

 

[Gr8Daneger]

I meant Twin Turbo gas V8. When someone says “Hardcore” I think Ford Raptor R and Ram TRX which both have blown V8’s and sell like hotcakes. I only say turbo, instead of blown, because that seems to be what Toyota likes to do lately but I would gladly take either.

Why can’t Toyota have one gas guzzler monster V8 like the others, as long as their numbers even out with the other higher mileage vehicles in their stable. It makes sense that they don’t have a chassis to support the power, but Toyota seems to tune down most of their power plants and coupled with the new “supposedly” stronger frame I don’t see why it can’t handle the extra ~100hp more than the outgoing 200 frame.

It may be just me but I don’t really care about gas mileage or tire weight. I basically want a powerhouse with Toyota reliability and the Land Cruiser name.

 

[Rednexus]

It may be just me but I don’t really care about gas mileage or tire weight. I basically want a powerhouse with Toyota reliability and the Land Cruiser name.

200 series with a Magnusson supercharger is your ticket.

 

[ThRiLlGmYr]

I meant Twin Turbo gas V8. When someone says “Hardcore” I think Ford Raptor R and Ram TRX which both have blown V8’s and sell like hotcakes. I only say turbo, instead of blown, because that seems to be what Toyota likes to do lately but I would gladly take either.

Why can’t Toyota have one gas guzzler monster V8 like the others, as long as their numbers even out with the other higher mileage vehicles in their stable. It makes sense that they don’t have a chassis to support the power, but Toyota seems to tune down most of their power plants and coupled with the new “supposedly” stronger frame I don’t see why it can’t handle the extra ~100hp more than the outgoing 200 frame.

It may be just me but I don’t really care about gas mileage or tire weight. I basically want a powerhouse with Toyota reliability and the Land Cruiser name.

LOL, so what you want is something that a Land Cruiser has NEVER intended to be? Maybe Toyota can go after the 911 Dakar and base the new Land Cruiser off the Lexus LFA with AWD and a 3inch lift. A V-8 twin turbo diesel was at least feasible.

 

[Gr8Daneger]

LOL, so what you want is something that a Land Cruiser has NEVER intended to be? Maybe Toyota can go after the 911 Dakar and base the new Land Cruiser off the Lexus LFA with AWD and a 3inch lift. A V-8 twin turbo diesel was at least feasible.

What is a Land Cruiser supposed to be? That is the question that is asked around here a lot and answered a lot of different ways. My way just happens to be different than yours.

 

[ThRiLlGmYr]

What is a Land Cruiser supposed to be? That is the question that is asked around here a lot and answered a lot of different ways. My way just happens to be different than yours.

A Land Cruiser is supposed to be a 4WD, cross country people hauler/work truck that is the pinnacle of reliability and durability. To me it is the ultimate tourer that gets you where you need to go whether it be across town or across sub-Saharan Africa. It is not a Baja race truck. If you want it to be that, good for you. But Toyota is NEVER going to build that. So go ahead and buy that Raptor R.

 

[Gr8Daneger]

A Land Cruiser is supposed to be a 4WD, cross country people hauler/work truck that is the pinnacle of reliability and durability. To me it is the ultimate tourer that gets you where you need to go whether it be across town or across sub-Saharan Africa. It is not a Baja race truck. If you want it to be that, good for you. But Toyota is NEVER going to build that. So go ahead and buy that Raptor R.

Well they just turned the top of the line Tacoma into a Baja truck, so you never know. And there is zero reasons by your definition above that it can’t have more power to do so. Everything we do with these truck is easier with more power. But I guess your definition meant every LC to date has been a turbo 4 banger with a hybrid battery, which they didn’t even put the worldwide 300 LC. All the power plant is targeting is epa regs and nothing else.

I never asked for a Baja truck, I asked for more power. I sadly know it’s not going to happen, but I have to say it. Toyota wants the next LC to be for the masses, and that means making it cheaper. Cost has to be cut somewhere so we’ll see.

 

[ThRiLlGmYr]

Well they just turned the top of the line Tacoma into a Baja truck, so you never know. And there is zero reasons by your definition above that it can’t have more power to do so. Everything we do with these truck is easier with more power. But I guess your definition meant every LC to date has been a turbo 4 banger with a hybrid battery, which they didn’t even put the worldwide 300 LC. All the power plant is targeting is epa regs and nothing else.

I never asked for a Baja truck, I asked for more power. I sadly know it’s not going to happen, but I have to say it. Toyota wants the next LC to be for the masses, and that means making it cheaper. Cost has to be cut somewhere so we’ll see.

The company, and almost all car companies, are downsizing their engines with smaller displacement and lower cylinder counts. Even Ferrari is moving that direction. It is completely unrealistic that Toyota would abandon the V-8 and then turn around and make a V-8 twin turbo.

Yes, the Tacoma has a Baja truck, but Toyota has a history of Baja pick ups. But a Baja Land Cruiser would be ridiculous. I have no idea what you are talking about with a 4cyl LC. I have clearly said I think it will have the V-6 twin turbo. I assumed you meant the diesel twin turbo V-8 because at least that is a real engine that comes in Land Cruisers.

 

[M1911]

I assumed he meant the twin turbo diesel V-8. No way they bring a diesel over now. I have zero doubt it will be one of their new twin turbo engines, either the four cylinder or six cylinder. My money is on 4Runner getting the 4cyl and the LC going up market with the 6 cyl (with the Max hybrid at top for each). I think SR5 4Runners will get 4cyl Turbos while TRD Pro, Trailhunter, and possibly limited will get Max engines. I think the LC will essentially have one model, equivalent to the Trailhunter, and will have the V-6 twin turbo and an optional Max engine tbd.

Ah, fair point. Dunno why I assumed twin turbo gas V8. Of course, building a twin turbo diesel V8 that could meet US emissions regulations would cost even more than building a twin turbo gas V8. The price would be astronomical, due to the emissions treatment and high pressure fuel injection system, and the warranty costs would be even worse. As you said, no way they will bring a diesel over. No way, no how.

 

[M1911]

There are (at least) two factors here:

1. Number of units that Toyota intends to manufacture......which may be very limited due to global capacity constraints that have been observed previously (ie/ex 2 year backlog of 70 series orders)

2. US market demand.....given that Ford has sold over 100k bronco's each year and is currently sold out its clear that demand is not the limiting factor.

There's plenty of evidence to support the expectation that demand far exceeds what Toyota can/will produce/make avail to US market for a bronco like competitor.

If Toyota WANTED to offer a MT there's no question that sufficient numbers would sell to support the cost/effort

EDIT:
Hell....looking at Wrangler sales year over year.....if Toyota were to bring a 73 varient with a removeable hard top to the US market it would sell out without question

The demand is here in the US market.....the issue is Toyota deciding to offer a vehicle to satisfy that demand.

Toyota simply will not sell a 4Runner or LC Prado with a manual transmission in the US. The take rate on manual transmissions for the Toyota Tacoma is 5%. The take rate for a manual transmission on a 4Runner or LC Prado would be even less. Sales volume for the 4Runner is about 1/2 of the Taco and the sales volume for the LC Prado is going to be tiny. The cost to federalize a vehicle + drivetrain (emissions, fuel economy, and crash testing) is the same whether you sell 200,000 or 2,000, but the per vehicle cost is obviously inversely proportional to the sales volume. If you want a manual transmission off-road Toyota, your choice will be the Taco.

 

[M1911]

I meant Twin Turbo gas V8.

Not going to happen. Toyota doesn't have a twin turbo gas V8, nor do they have a transmission, differential, transfer case, or axles rated for that much horsepower and torque. The cost to engineer that drivetrain would be hundreds of millions of dollars and they would have to amortize it over just a couple thousand vehicles per year. They would end having to price the vehicle over $100,000 and they would still lose money on each one (and you would then bitch about how much it costs). That's not something Toyota will do.

 

[Specialeyes]

Building a high stressed V8 or any size engine for that matter goes against the grain for Toyota’s entire history. No way, no how they would do such a thing now lol. That approach simply is not in their playbook.

 

[jayp2]

Toyota simply will not sell a 4Runner or LC Prado with a manual transmission in the US. The take rate on manual transmissions for the Toyota Tacoma is 5%. The take rate for a manual transmission on a 4Runner or LC Prado would be even less. Sales volume for the 4Runner is about 1/2 of the Taco and the sales volume for the LC Prado is going to be tiny. The cost to federalize a vehicle + drivetrain (emissions, fuel economy, and crash testing) is the same whether you sell 200,000 or 2,000, but the per vehicle cost is obviously inversely proportional to the sales volume. If you want a manual transmission off-road Toyota, your choice will be the Taco.

I'm not argueing the likelyhood is very very low

What I am argueing is that the demand IS there

Wrangler offers a MT across a bunch of different trims
Bronco does the same

Toyota on the other hand limits MT in the Taco for example to just a few configuations and they're all higher priced.....Toyota has done this for about a decade......they make it difficult to find a model that offers it and even more difficult to find one that is avail

So Toyota and the MT is something of a self fulfilling prophesy.....they claim that sales of MT are very low while ignoring the fact that they make it almost impossible to buy one.

But ford and jeep seems to refute this.

So does Subaru with the WRX, VW with the GTI etc.....

The truth seems to be that Toyota doesnt want to sell vehicles with MT's for the same reason they dont want to sell vehicles with the choice of multiple engines....complexity and cost to stock parts/etc

Remember.....the american market has demonstrated a strong desire for the wrangler/bronco form factor optioned the way ford and jeep are offering them

Toyota only has to bring a vehicle to the american market that satisfies what americans want.....rather than what toyota wishes to sell.

If Toyota was going to sell what market demand is clamoring for then they would offer a 73 clone removeable hard top landcruiser (channelling the 40 legacy) and a 4 door prado/70 esque model that channels the 60 series landcruiser

But lets be honest....toyota is almost certain to ignore market demand in the US and instead bring in a "Landcruiser" that is a slightly scaled down Lexus that will almost certainly sell numbers that rival the last couple years the LC was in the US before they dropped the offering.....then they will wring their hands and declare that there just isnt demand for a "Land Cruiser" in the US

 

[ThRiLlGmYr]

Toyota only has to bring a vehicle to the american market that satisfies what americans want.....rather than what toyota wishes to sell.

Well, it isn't just about them designing a car you want, this is a company that literally builds the cars they want and you have pray you can get allocated one that has what you want.

 

[LostTexan]

The take rate for MT Wranglers is around 10%. Bronco was about 15% for the first year, but I’d expect is less after the early adopter enthusiasts got their deliveries.
Personally, I don’t understand the love affair with MT, but I’m just one man. We will all know in due time.

 

[Specialeyes]

But ford and jeep seems to refute this.

So does Subaru with the WRX, VW with the GTI etc.....

A quick web search shows that take rates for the manual Bronco and Wrangler are only around 15%.

Pitting Subi, Golf, and other small performance/ hot hatch drivers cars to 4x4 trucks and SUV’s is apples to oranges. Two different types of vehicles in spirit and mission. Besides, Toyota has the GR86 and Corolla for those customers (both offered with manuals)