Robert
2021 heritage suspension
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Robert
bloc
SILVER Star
What we do know is rear springs in base models didn’t change much over the years.. though they did change. How we know: the part number on one side for all year non-HE 200s is the same. The other part number did change. Likely a small height or rate change, but it couldn’t be dramatic with the other side staying static.
Enter the 2020 2-row HE. People noted that they sat taller in the back, and at first we assumed it was the reduced rear weight from no 3rd row seats. Then people took a close look at the springs.. I don’t have my notes with me on which was which but one had notably thicker wire, and one (not sure if the same) had a whole extra wrap. These are different springs. And keep in mind the HE wasn’t marketed as having different suspension.. just the stuff you see. It does make sense that in giving up the weight of the seats and potential passengers toyota would spec a longer, lower rate spring, hoping to achieve the same unloaded ride height but not have it oversprung. As for why yours sits low, I would hope toyota is smart enough to put base springs in a 3-row HE vs the seemingly lighter coils in 2020 2-row ones, but that’s only one idea.
All of that said.. we haven’t seen anything yet on what is in 3-row HEs. Plus my access to part numbers only goes up to about 2018. @Eric Sarjeant might be able to help with part numbers..
As for charts of paint dots, I haven’t seen anything like that organized. Most manufacturers do use the dots to identify springs but most also keep that info internal. Coming up with an index of what came on what year/model wouldn’t be too hard with some crowd sourcing.. but we still wouldn’t have rate, unloaded length, etc.
Enter the 2020 2-row HE. People noted that they sat taller in the back, and at first we assumed it was the reduced rear weight from no 3rd row seats. Then people took a close look at the springs.. I don’t have my notes with me on which was which but one had notably thicker wire, and one (not sure if the same) had a whole extra wrap. These are different springs. And keep in mind the HE wasn’t marketed as having different suspension.. just the stuff you see. It does make sense that in giving up the weight of the seats and potential passengers toyota would spec a longer, lower rate spring, hoping to achieve the same unloaded ride height but not have it oversprung. As for why yours sits low, I would hope toyota is smart enough to put base springs in a 3-row HE vs the seemingly lighter coils in 2020 2-row ones, but that’s only one idea.
All of that said.. we haven’t seen anything yet on what is in 3-row HEs. Plus my access to part numbers only goes up to about 2018. @Eric Sarjeant might be able to help with part numbers..
As for charts of paint dots, I haven’t seen anything like that organized. Most manufacturers do use the dots to identify springs but most also keep that info internal. Coming up with an index of what came on what year/model wouldn’t be too hard with some crowd sourcing.. but we still wouldn’t have rate, unloaded length, etc.
What was the trade/out of pocket cost going from 20 to 21?
The third row is heavy and the rear springs are crazy soft. I bet if you take the third row out, the rear would raise up a fair amount.
The third row is heavy and the rear springs are crazy soft. I bet if you take the third row out, the rear would raise up a fair amount.
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- #6
Thanks! Only had it a few days but I like it already.
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- #7
bloc,
I wish I had measured the previous truck before I sold it. I know the 2 row model clearly has taller springs, but I'm not convinced they are much "softer". Without the data we can speculate all we want about spring rates and linear or progressive springs. I think I'll just seek out a set of 2 row springs and swap them out.
To answer some questions, I went to the scale with a trailer this weekend and got some data.
With the trailer connected I had a rear axle weight of 4400# and without the trailer it was 3100#. And measuring the wheel arch to the center of the hub the truck settled from 20" down to 17.75". I need to look up how to calculate spring rate, it's been a hot minute since I've had to do that.
Anyway, the last time I connected to the same trailer with the 2 row truck it settled a similar amount. Sadly, I did not measure it.
People initially though removing the rear seats would explain the taller 2 row trucks. Unless the rear seats weigh over 1000# that just isn't possible. I measured the 2 row when it was new at the rear roof rack cross bar and it was 77.75. The 3 row measures in at 75.625.
I guess I need to start looking at lift options vs 2 row springs.....
Robert
I wish I had measured the previous truck before I sold it. I know the 2 row model clearly has taller springs, but I'm not convinced they are much "softer". Without the data we can speculate all we want about spring rates and linear or progressive springs. I think I'll just seek out a set of 2 row springs and swap them out.
To answer some questions, I went to the scale with a trailer this weekend and got some data.
With the trailer connected I had a rear axle weight of 4400# and without the trailer it was 3100#. And measuring the wheel arch to the center of the hub the truck settled from 20" down to 17.75". I need to look up how to calculate spring rate, it's been a hot minute since I've had to do that.
Anyway, the last time I connected to the same trailer with the 2 row truck it settled a similar amount. Sadly, I did not measure it.
People initially though removing the rear seats would explain the taller 2 row trucks. Unless the rear seats weigh over 1000# that just isn't possible. I measured the 2 row when it was new at the rear roof rack cross bar and it was 77.75. The 3 row measures in at 75.625.
I guess I need to start looking at lift options vs 2 row springs.....
Robert
If the 2020 HE rear springs are less thick it is barely measurable. I have 2020 HE rear coils in my 2013, which give me a lift. My stock weight rear measurement is 22.75" hub center to fender with 3rd row seats on a stock 2013 LC. When I put calipers on the HE coils and 2013 and 2018 base OEM coils, they were so close in thickness that it could have been paint / coating differences. The 2020 HE coils are longer on both coils than base coils and a light spring rate. Its the only way I have found to get a rear lift without using a higher spring rate (OME, Dobinsons, Bilstein, etc)
bloc
SILVER Star
They must be softer, based on previous wire diameter measurements and wrap count.
My rig had 3k on the rear axle with 2nd and 3rd row out, sliders, and packed for a trip. I tend to pack light though.
I agree that the seats alone can't account for the height difference, but keep in mind most people weren't getting 2" of difference. It was so close we weren't even sure at first. As numbers came out .75" over a same year Base model seemed to be the average.
Interesting you mention calipers on a 2013.
2013 stock spring left, 2020 2-row HE on right.
I spy a notable difference.
Turns out I was wrong about different wrap count.. they are nearly identical. So a thinner wire and similar wrap = softer spring. Probably a big part of why the HE spring is so much longer, to achieve a similar ride height.
Also, I need to clip my nails. Ew.
yes curious to know what the hit was in the pocket. I would've waited had I know a silver HE option would have been available and not gotten my black 2020 HE.
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- #11
For those who asked, the difference was almost exactly $14K The 2020 has 219xx miles and was returned to stock. A couple dings and scratches but I would not have traded it in if it was a different color. It will make someone a great truck. And if they put Slee sliders on it all the nut zerts are already installed. The dealer did not want the Rhino bumper, winch, prinsu rack, or the sliders. I removed the red arc brake controller but did leave the rear hatch LED's and switch.
Bloc, Thanks for the spring measurements. When I get some spare time I'll look into what it's going to take to lift this 3 row truck. I'm not convinced I need the 3rd row, but the drawer I had was pretty handy.
Here is a side shot with all the weight still in and on the truck. The rear springs were crazy tall compared to the new one.
Bloc, Thanks for the spring measurements. When I get some spare time I'll look into what it's going to take to lift this 3 row truck. I'm not convinced I need the 3rd row, but the drawer I had was pretty handy.
Here is a side shot with all the weight still in and on the truck. The rear springs were crazy tall compared to the new one.
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- #13
LCnut4,
I did the ceramic coat thing and had the unlimited car wash pass. My problem was the water spots in the door jambs and my general laziness. It's a daily driver and even with the rona and less driving I did 20 some thousand miles in the year. So, when I had the opportunity I replaced the black with a silver. Good luck on your decision, they are fine trucks.
Robert
I did the ceramic coat thing and had the unlimited car wash pass. My problem was the water spots in the door jambs and my general laziness. It's a daily driver and even with the rona and less driving I did 20 some thousand miles in the year. So, when I had the opportunity I replaced the black with a silver. Good luck on your decision, they are fine trucks.
Robert
You sound similar to me with a few less miles. My wife is still searching for OCD meds that will work on me
Taco2Cruiser
Crazy American Off Road
Center springs are from a 2 row heritage, outer springs are from an ‘18 (obvious that came with 3 rows). I should have a 3 row heritage rear springs soon.
Then I’m gonna plop these heritage springs in a different ‘18 and just see what happens.
@bloc, did you ever plop the heritage springs in your truck?
Then I’m gonna plop these heritage springs in a different ‘18 and just see what happens.
@bloc, did you ever plop the heritage springs in your truck?
bloc
SILVER Star
No I went with 2720s and have been happy with them. I'll be keeping an eye on what happens with your experiment.
Sure would be awesome to get these on a device that can measure spring rate..
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- #17
Taco2cruiser,
I had time to install the Bilstein kit Saturday and took a few pictures. I’ve not put a caliper on the wire size, but here is what I found. This is the left rear coil from a 2021 3 row HE next to the Bilstein coils
And here are the measurements of the left, right, and Bilstein.
I had time to install the Bilstein kit Saturday and took a few pictures. I’ve not put a caliper on the wire size, but here is what I found. This is the left rear coil from a 2021 3 row HE next to the Bilstein coils
My wife has a 2016 that she wants to lift an inch orc2 all the way around. I'm thinking OEM front spacers. But having trouble sourcing rear springs. Which bilstein kit did you use. I'm not planning on going crazy with it. We use it primarily as a daily driver and hit some tame trails on occasion. I have an 80 series for more serious stuff.
The Bilstein rear coils that are the same spring rate as stock coils are: Bilstein 53-292018 . They are both the same length and result in about a 23" measurement center of rear hub, straight up to fender. (for stock rear weight with 3rd row installed). This may settle to 22.75" or so over time. I used a 5mm spacer on the gas tank side to make sure the truck was level since these coils are both the same.
You could also consider Heritage edition rear springs, which are maybe slightly lighter spring rate and shorter than the above Bilsteins (and have a longer passenger side coil like most others). The HE coils on my stock weight LC resulted in 22.75" hub-fender and may settle from there.
You can also just keep her stock coils and add a 10mm or 5mm spacer above them to get where you want to be. If you want a set of the above Bilstein coils, I can ship you some lightly used (installed for a week or so) springs from New Orleans.
You could also consider Heritage edition rear springs, which are maybe slightly lighter spring rate and shorter than the above Bilsteins (and have a longer passenger side coil like most others). The HE coils on my stock weight LC resulted in 22.75" hub-fender and may settle from there.
You can also just keep her stock coils and add a 10mm or 5mm spacer above them to get where you want to be. If you want a set of the above Bilstein coils, I can ship you some lightly used (installed for a week or so) springs from New Orleans.
What do you want for them. I would definitely take them. I think matching those with the front oem spacer kit would work fine.
