2013 Land Cruiser KDSS Decision Time (1 Viewer)

[BackroadTrail]

After some suspension work my 2013 has a 4" high rear-driver-side lean. The adjusting values are rusted and multiple mechanics have tried to loosen them. The extended warranty is willing to pay to have the value replaced since it failed internally. The dealer says they can't replace just the valve, because the entire KDSS is too rusted. The warranty won't pay for the rest of the system since it is rust-related, so the bill would be about $9K. It is hard to see doing that.

One option is to convert the KDSS to a conventional sway setup, the dealer can't find the Toyota parts to do that. There are aftermarket parts that will do it for around $3K P&L and the dealer or my local custom show can do that. I also hear that some are happy just removing the KDSS bars. I do use it as a tow vehicle for a small travel trailer.

Short term I am going to drive it and try some of the ways to level it, not using the values, I have read about here. And put together a long-term plan to lift the truck and remove the KDSS system at the same time.

Ideas?

How much lift can be achieved if the KDSS is out of the picture?

 

[bloc]

After some suspension work my 2013 has a 4" high rear-driver-side lean. The adjusting values are rusted and multiple mechanics have tried to loosen them. The extended warranty is willing to pay to have the value replaced since it failed internally. The dealer says they can't replace just the valve, because the entire KDSS is too rusted. The warranty won't pay for the rest of the system since it is rust-related, so the bill would be about $9K. It is hard to see doing that.

One option is to convert the KDSS to a conventional sway setup, the dealer can't find the Toyota parts to do that. There are aftermarket parts that will do it for around $3K P&L and the dealer or my local custom show can do that. I also hear that some are happy just removing the KDSS bars. I do use it as a tow vehicle for a small travel trailer.

Short term I am going to drive it and try some of the ways to level it, not using the values, I have read about here. And put together a long-term plan to lift the truck and remove the KDSS system at the same time.

Ideas?

How much lift can be achieved if the KDSS is out of the picture?

Is ultimate lift your goal or tire size? You can look at what the LX guys are doing for tires when you aren't constrained by the KDSS arm in the front. Though a few are moving the front bar and still getting close to those sizes with KDSS in place.

The front non-kdss parts are relatively easy.. should all bolt on from a LX. The problem is the rear, where their bar mounts to the axle in a totally different way than your KDSS setup. I doubt it's cost effective but depending on what you can find running a LX rear axle housing would be one option.

Either way I absolutely would keep sway bars on it if you'll be spending significant time on-road, and especially with a trailer, and absolutely especially if you plan to lift it more. People with more experience than I could comment on the merits and potential risk of running only a front bar.. which as I said should be easy.

One request though.. before they remove it please try to get some detailed pictures of the valve. I cut one in half to understand how it works, and the person that supplied it had a similar failure to yours from corrosion, but I still couldn't tell what went wrong internally. I'm hoping if there are detailed photos we can identify an external leak or something. Not sure I want to go through the effort and mess of cutting another one open.. but I'd still like to know what's happening inside these things when people get a 4" lean.

Who makes the aftermarket sway bar systems that eliminate KDSS?

 

[BackroadTrail]

Is ultimate lift your goal or tire size? You can look at what the LX guys are doing for tires when you aren't constrained by the KDSS arm in the front. Though a few are moving the front bar and still getting close to those sizes with KDSS in place.

The front non-kdss parts are relatively easy.. should all bolt on from a LX. The problem is the rear, where their bar mounts to the axle in a totally different way than your KDSS setup. I doubt it's cost effective but depending on what you can find running a LX rear axle housing would be one option.

Either way I absolutely would keep sway bars on it if you'll be spending significant time on-road, and especially with a trailer, and absolutely especially if you plan to lift it more. People with more experience than I could comment on the merits and potential risk of running only a front bar.. which as I said should be easy.

One request though.. before they remove it please try to get some detailed pictures of the valve. I cut one in half to understand how it works, and the person that supplied it had a similar failure to yours from corrosion, but I still couldn't tell what went wrong internally. I'm hoping if there are detailed photos we can identify an external leak or something. Not sure I want to go through the effort and mess of cutting another one open.. but I'd still like to know what's happening inside these things when people get a 4" lean.

Who makes the aftermarket sway bar systems that eliminate KDSS?

Will do.

 

[BackroadTrail]

Is ultimate lift your goal or tire size? You can look at what the LX guys are doing for tires when you aren't constrained by the KDSS arm in the front. Though a few are moving the front bar and still getting close to those sizes with KDSS in place.

Ground clearance and approach/departure angles.

 

[grinchy]

So your kdss valve screws are rusted in place? Or the lines are also rusted thru? Why not just replace the valve and deal with the rusted lines when they become a problem, it could be many years before one perforates.

 

[bloc]

So your kdss valve screws are rusted in place? Or the lines are also rusted thru? Why not just replace the valve and deal with the rusted lines when they become a problem, it could be many years before one perforates.

I'm betting the fittings at the ends of the lines are as rusted as the valve body is. The valve I cut up had two of the fittings fubared, before they just cut the lines.

 

[lx200inAR]

Sorry to hear about your KDSS situation. I don't really have any advice on that. I just stopped in to say i clicked on your blog, and that's pretty awesome. Definitely bookmarking to read up on some of your boondocking solutions/tests.

The front non-kdss parts are relatively easy.. should all bolt on from a LX.

Isn't the LX bar pretty soft? I don't suppose you can use the Tundra bar, since it's probably a few inches longer.

 

[TeCKis300]

I'd agree that you'll want to keep some form of a sway bar. For handling more payload, towing, and lift. Both front and rear bars serve a purpose, but the front bar is has more impact for overall stability.

Yes, LX bars are going to be softer, but better than none. A possible compensating factor is that if the OP has aftermarket suspension, spring rates tend to be much higher. Especially the rear. That in itself is going to increase roll resistance and stability. Perhaps when paired with soft LX sway bars, may actually work out well. And a rear bar may not be necessary with the greatly increased rates there.

@bloc , I know the rear axle sway bar is configured differently between the LC and LX. LC has it ahead of the axle. LX is behind. So you're saying the LC axle housing doesn't have this rear trailing bracket (which is welded to the axle)?

 

[bloc]

@bloc , I know the rear axle sway bar is configured differently between the LC and LX. LC has it ahead of the axle. LX is behind. So you're saying the LC axle housing doesn't have this rear trailing bracket (which is welded to the axle)?

View attachment 2907730

Unfortunately it doesn’t.

 

[TeCKis300]

Bummer.

I think there's an opportunity in the aftermarket to make a component that locks out the active KDSS mount. That would permanently engage the KDSS bar.

Which wouldn't be great for off-road articulation but perhaps there's creative way to disable the lockout (i.e. sway bar disconnect). Or ways to change the geometry of hte mounts so that there can be tuning of the stiff KDSS bar.

 

[cboyd]

Bummer.

I think there's an opportunity in the aftermarket to make a component that locks out the active KDSS mount. That would permanently engage the KDSS bar.

Which wouldn't be great for off-road articulation but perhaps there's creative way to disable the lockout (i.e. sway bar disconnect). Or ways to change the geometry of hte mounts so that there can be tuning of the stiff KDSS bar.

I’d bet TrailTailor would know just how to handle this given work he’s done on 100s and 80s. Might try reaching out to him for an opp to start selling KDSS kits to all us 200s owners with nasty, rusty KDSS systems.

 

[linuxgod]

After some suspension work my 2013 has a 4" high rear-driver-side lean. The adjusting values are rusted and multiple mechanics have tried to loosen them. The extended warranty is willing to pay to have the value replaced since it failed internally. The dealer says they can't replace just the valve, because the entire KDSS is too rusted. The warranty won't pay for the rest of the system since it is rust-related, so the bill would be about $9K. It is hard to see doing that.

One option is to convert the KDSS to a conventional sway setup, the dealer can't find the Toyota parts to do that. There are aftermarket parts that will do it for around $3K P&L and the dealer or my local custom show can do that. I also hear that some are happy just removing the KDSS bars. I do use it as a tow vehicle for a small travel trailer.

Short term I am going to drive it and try some of the ways to level it, not using the values, I have read about here. And put together a long-term plan to lift the truck and remove the KDSS system at the same time.

Ideas?

How much lift can be achieved if the KDSS is out of the picture?

4" high rear driver's side is a LOT though. Are you sure the rear springs are not swapped? They are different lengths and if you have an aftermarket kit (particularly one from overseas where they were typically installed in RHD vehicles) the instructions may have said to put the taller spring on the driver's side - which is correct for RHD but not for LHD. I had ~2" of lean from my rear springs being in the wrong positions... once swapped there was almost no lean.

I would not drive without sway bard on the highway regularly or when towing. Normal driving will likely be fine but you'll get a lot more body roll in an emergency maneuver.

I don't think KDSS really limits your amount of lift. if so you can always buy the BDS Tundra extended length sway bar end links. You'll hit limits with clearance, CV travel, etc first though.

If you want to remove the KDSS I'd look at how the overseas lower trim LC is configured and see if you can order parts to do the swap from partsouq.

 

[BackroadTrail]

4" high rear driver's side is a LOT though. Are you sure the rear springs are not swapped?

The suspension work was to add rear airbags. I will check with the shop to see if that is possible.

 

[TeCKis300]

If you want to remove the KDSS I'd look at how the overseas lower trim LC is configured and see if you can order parts to do the swap from partsouq.

Found a random article of an AUS spec GXL LC200, that doesn't look to have KDSS. Looks like it uses the LX rear sway bar config.

Rambler’s epic 200 Series Cruiser

If you're in the business of building next-level 4x4s for customers, then your demo vehicle better be a head-turner

www.whichcar.com.au

If I'm staring at this right, the passenger side sway bar bracket on the axle looks to be bolt on to the panhard bracket. Which the USDM LC200 should have an interface for. So the USDM LC200 is missing the welded bracket on the driver side. In the grand scheme of things, that's not hard to add.

 

[mcgaskins]

One option is to convert the KDSS to a conventional sway setup, the dealer can't find the Toyota parts to do that. There are aftermarket parts that will do it for around $3K P&L and the dealer or my local custom show can do that. I also hear that some are happy just removing the KDSS bars. I do use it as a tow vehicle for a small travel trailer.

Curious where you've heard of people removing KDSS? I don't recall anyone here doing it - perhaps you mean the AHC system on the LX?

I would be exceptionally skeptical of an aftermarket kit to remove KDSS - especially since none of us (to my knowledge) have heard of it or seen it in ~15 years of poking around this forum and buying/building/wheeling 200s. If it is a custom one off job, how will you know it will perform safely - especially in emergency maneuvers and while towing? Another concern is a custom job like this will surely be expensive while also significantly lower the value of the vehicle and reducing your future buyer pool, and no matter how long we intend to own our vehicles, the day will eventually come when you want to sell...and a custom job done poorly will likely accelerate the day you want to sell.

 

[bemerritt]

Curious where you've heard of people removing KDSS? I don't recall anyone here doing it - perhaps you mean the AHC system on the LX?

I would be exceptionally skeptical of an aftermarket kit to remove KDSS - especially since none of us (to my knowledge) have heard of it or seen it in ~15 years of poking around this forum and buying/building/wheeling 200s. If it is a custom one off job, how will you know it will perform safely - especially in emergency maneuvers and while towing? Another concern is a custom job like this will surely be expensive while also significantly lower the value of the vehicle and reducing your future buyer pool, and no matter how long we intend to own our vehicles, the day will eventually come when you want to sell...and a custom job done poorly will likely accelerate the day you want to sell.

Its not super documented in how it was done, but the stella build on 37's deleted the KDSS.

 

[BackroadTrail]

So your kdss valve screws are rusted in place? Or the lines are also rusted thru? Why not just replace the valve and deal with the rusted lines when they become a problem, it could be many years before one perforates

They are fused in place to the body. Since everything is connected and rusted, replacements ripple down the system.

 

[CharlieS]

Not saying it is recommended or even comparing apples to apples, but I took the anti-sway bar off the back of my last 80 series and it was fine. I don't think the sky is going to fall if we run our 200s with no rear bar.

 

[BackroadTrail]

I would be exceptionally skeptical of an aftermarket kit to remove KDSS - especially since none of us (to my knowledge) have heard of it or seen it in ~15 years of poking around this forum and buying/building/wheeling 200s. If it is a custom one off job, how will you know it will perform safely - especially in emergency maneuvers and while towing? Another concern is a custom job like this will surely be expensive while also significantly lower the value of the vehicle and reducing your future buyer pool, and no matter how long we intend to own our vehicles, the day will eventually come when you want to sell...and a custom job done poorly will likely accelerate the day you want to sell.

Agreed, not going that route. It would be a one-off.

 

[TeCKis300]

Its not super documented in how it was done, but the stella build on 37's deleted the KDSS.

Agreed. It's not common here, but definitely have seen it on social media. Also seems to be done to some more degree in Aussie builds.

I wonder how many KDSS systems are running around that are compromised. Lines rust, things happen, especially this many years later for the earliest examples. I'd bet there more than we know as its failure may not be immediately obvious or fail in more progressive fashion.