2013 dies repeatedly while driving down the road (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter CharlieS
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It's on my iphone. I use a general ELM327 WiFi-based OBD2 device which was <$20.
Good stuff. We're getting somewhere because at least we have codes! The ECU is generally all seeing. Unfortunately those particular codes are not great to help isolate what subsystem is at fault.
Going by the facts and symptoms you have mentioned. Including the short and long term trims which are solid, I would say that it is not a fueling issue. While still plausible, a fueling issue will generally result in some form of an ST or LT trim greater than what you're reporting, as closed loop operation will compensate for loss of system pressure or flow. If it is a fueling issue, it's not a clog type issue. Rather an outright pump stoppage where fueling head pressure drops spontaneously and immediately.
From your description of symptoms, it sound more like an ignition issue. Yet, we're not seeing ignition codes either....
Does the car run well when it does run? In all conditions, meaning idle, acceleration, and decel?
This is still pointing to some electrical connection, relay, or ECM type issue.
More often than not, even Techstream won’t catch a bad fuel pump. It’s the actual symptom (engine stalling) that gives away the nearest culprit (fuel pump). FWIW, I went through this very similar symptom on my 06LX470 and it was the 114°F and up weather temperatures here Vegas causing the truck to stall aka “heat soak”. Fuel expands, pressure increases etc etc. I did not replace the whole fuel pump assy, just the pump (Denso) and it came with a new rubber o-ring gasket seal. That fixed my problem. Hope you get yours fixed and have the truck in the road again in no time.
CharlieS
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- Thread starter
- #67
One more item I forgot to mention: I disconnected the MAF sensor as a troubleshooting step. Much to my surprise, it didn't have any impact on the idle. I thought it might make it run rough. It also didn't alter the stalling behavior. It did throw two OBD codes and make the trac and another light (low range maybe) flash repeatedly until I cleared them.
I assume that a bad or failing MAF would result in OBD codes, either on the MAF and air volume or on the o2 sensor end because of lean running conditions.
What kind of mass air flow would one expect at idle from a healthy MAF? I'm seeing 0.02 lb/s.
I assume that a bad or failing MAF would result in OBD codes, either on the MAF and air volume or on the o2 sensor end because of lean running conditions.
What kind of mass air flow would one expect at idle from a healthy MAF? I'm seeing 0.02 lb/s.
CharlieS
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- Thread starter
- #68
The plastic ducting is a hassle. That center section you mention has some odd triangular fasteners (that I don't have a bit or driver for) attaching it to the outer black plastic sections. The entire assembly is attached in convoluted ways to the ventilation ducting, so there is no easy or obvious way to remove it.
Note, please ignore this. You don't need to mess with the main (Rear No. 6) duct. Those triangular fasteners are (I think) actually rivets). No need to remove this part to get to the fuel pump.
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Tommy Dwyer
SILVER Star
Thanks. I actually saw where you posted a bit more detail in another thread as well. Good stuff, just what I was looking for!
CharlieS
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- Thread starter
- #71
So I had to circle back due to an error I made. I mistakenly tested the starter relay instead of the EFI relay. No idea why. mental fatigue?
Well, I went to redo this today. I can find one fuse and one relay in the under hood fuse/relay box that are labeled EFI and both are good. I bench tested the relay and it operates as expected. The car wound crank but not start when this relay was removed. Makes sense.
Any idea why the relay is labeled "EFI NO 2"? I don't see a "EFI NO 1"relay in that box. And why the fuse is labeled "EFI MAIN 2"? Are there additional EFI fuses and relays that I should be checking?
Is there a "fuel pump" relay?
Well, I went to redo this today. I can find one fuse and one relay in the under hood fuse/relay box that are labeled EFI and both are good. I bench tested the relay and it operates as expected. The car wound crank but not start when this relay was removed. Makes sense.
Any idea why the relay is labeled "EFI NO 2"? I don't see a "EFI NO 1"relay in that box. And why the fuse is labeled "EFI MAIN 2"? Are there additional EFI fuses and relays that I should be checking?
Is there a "fuel pump" relay?
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CharlieS
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- Thread starter
- #73
Yes! You were dead on.
The access hatch is just to the left and toward the door from that yellow assembly (as you look at it from the driver side door). It is actually forward and toward the door from the perspective of vehicle travel.
Once you have the air duct removed from under the 2nd row passenger seat (plastic trim cover, single philips screw), there is a small section of duct that can be removed by taking out a single (black oxide) philips screw (attaches the duct to another duct), and a shiny (zinc) coated screw (holds duct to the body) and then pulling the duct out.
At that point there is a circular hatch cover, with no fasteners. It is held on with a black body mastic. I pried it up with a trim tool. Under that, there was a rubber (butyl?) flap, that covered the electrical plug to the fuel pump. After removing the electrical connector, you can move that rubber cover over to the side (I tucked it underneath, toward the passenger side and back). This exposes the fuel connections, and a white plastic locking ring, which must fasten the fuel pump in.
Super dusty and dirty though. I need to vacuum before I go any further.
Any tricks for removing the white locking ring? Special/custom made tools?
No need to mess with any of the other ducting (thank goodness, because it goes up under the wheel well trim and would be a major disassembly job.
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There is a special tool.
Amazon product ASIN B0079GPYA4
Similar to that, that specific one may work but don't quote me.
A carefully very used screwdriver (or similar) and hammer also works.
CharlieS
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- Thread starter
- #76
Thanks. I ordered it. Better to do it right!
I've removed similar from other vehicles with a brass punch and a hammer. Land cruiser parts are such a hassle to get, I want to minimize the chance of breaking it.
As an aside, I've been working on cars and motorcycles for almost 35 years. And I've done everything from rebuild engines to regear transmissions, built race cars, you name it. I have a great tool collection. But wouldn't you know it, almost every job seems to have some new tool that I don't own yet. You'd think at this point I'd have what I need, but no...
RET2
SILVER Star
Damn that's a whole lot of work!
Get a new OEM gas cap from the Lexus dealer
CharlieS
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- Thread starter
- #79
Can I get you all to check my logic?
The circuit appears to be pretty simple. Power from the battery goes through the AF relay, which energizes EFI NO 2 relay enabling the fuel pump relay circuit. Power flows from the battery through the EFI MAIN 2 fuse through the energized EFI NO 2 relay into the Fuel Pump Control ECU assembly. Some sort of evil magic happens in the fuel pump ecu, and a signal is sent to the fuel pump, the other side of the fuel pump is grounded, so the pump is energized and pumps fuel to the engine.
The Fuel Pump ECU is somewhere in the back hatch area of the rig, location TBD...
So, provided I can identify the power wire on the pump connector - I think +is the black with white tracer wire, and the white with black tracer is the ground - I should be able to back probe the connector and monitor for power while it runs and when it fails.
Something I read suggested that the pump has three speeds, so I expect variable voltage.
If the problem is the pump itself, I'd expect to still see voltage around the time of the stall. If it is something upstream of the pump, I'd expect to see the voltage disappear near the time of failure.
Does that hold water?
The circuit appears to be pretty simple. Power from the battery goes through the AF relay, which energizes EFI NO 2 relay enabling the fuel pump relay circuit. Power flows from the battery through the EFI MAIN 2 fuse through the energized EFI NO 2 relay into the Fuel Pump Control ECU assembly. Some sort of evil magic happens in the fuel pump ecu, and a signal is sent to the fuel pump, the other side of the fuel pump is grounded, so the pump is energized and pumps fuel to the engine.
The Fuel Pump ECU is somewhere in the back hatch area of the rig, location TBD...
So, provided I can identify the power wire on the pump connector - I think +is the black with white tracer wire, and the white with black tracer is the ground - I should be able to back probe the connector and monitor for power while it runs and when it fails.
Something I read suggested that the pump has three speeds, so I expect variable voltage.
If the problem is the pump itself, I'd expect to still see voltage around the time of the stall. If it is something upstream of the pump, I'd expect to see the voltage disappear near the time of failure.
Does that hold water?
indycole
GOLD Star
These may be worth looking through. Start with the "fuel pump overview."
