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200-Series to 300-Series Pros and Cons (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter MRego
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I've got a 200 and and a LX 600, both green. The 200 is a tank and I'll never sell it. The LX 600 is a Range Rover challenger on the luxury and tech front. It's super nice, smooth, plenty of power. I don't know how long I will keep it. It's a fun car. Sunroof rails rattle and I get a bit of wind noise through the doors sometimes. I give the LX a solid A.
The 250 is essentially a 4Runner with a LC badge. If I was going to go that route, I'd just buy the new 4Runner and save $10-15K. There is no honest debate between a LX and a GX because they are two very differently put together vehicles. Although they do share some running gear!
The 250 is essentially a 4Runner with a LC badge. If I was going to go that route, I'd just buy the new 4Runner and save $10-15K. There is no honest debate between a LX and a GX because they are two very differently put together vehicles. Although they do share some running gear!
- Thread starter
- #23
Right? I see a very bleak future for the 250Prado. At least in the LC form. (Most) people that care for the LC name plate are just pissed off by what Toyota did. Yes, some are accepting and buying the "new Land Cruiser", but I believe these are the minority. The vast majority buying the 250 are women/wives that like the boxy shape/nice round headlights and love the elevated seating or people that had a 5th gen 4Runner/GX460 and wanted an "upgrade" techwise speaking (or a combination of both). When the 6thgen 4runner hit the lots for $10k or $15k less and, sometimes, with more creature comforts than the 1958 Prado, it will be a no-brainer for most people that could not care less for the LC name. The GX 550 might be a different story, since it is a bit more refined and on a different price point than the 6th gen, but that pile of 1958 at your local Toyota dealer is about to get higher and higher.
Yes, I am already starting to see some inventory buildup at my local store. They typically do not keep inventory of hot sellers. Might have a couple of Sequoias to choose from and that is it. I counted six 250s on the lot. The hot item seems to be the GX, which I have no idea why. My dealer is Toyota only, but is buying these and reselling them for $90+. Absolutely absurd, but it's the new shiny thing. I wouldn't trade my LX for two GXs.
Pardon the digression (I didn't start it!) but the recent past hasn't been bleak. OTOH, you're probably correct about most MUD members choosing to pass on this model.
"...Let’s set opinions aside for a moment and examine one indisputable fact. In eight months of being on the market, Toyota’s new Land Cruiser has outsold the totality of the 200 series Land Cruiser from 2008-2021. That's crazy. People who actually buy Toyota SUVs have made the new Land Cruiser the surprise hit of the decade at a company whose batting average is the best in the business....
So, how well is the new Land Cruiser really selling? Let’s keep in mind this is a vehicle near the top of the food chain, so its volume is smaller than that of more mainstream, lower-priced models. With 5,399 units sold in December, Land Cruiser.:
- Is selling better than any prior Land Cruiser Model of the 200 series (2008-2021)
- Outsold 4-Runner, Highlander, and Sequoia COMBINED in December
- Outsold the Lexus TX and GX SUVs (possibly some availability reasons there)
- Outsold all of Toyota’s and Lexus’s combined sports cars (GR86, Supra, and RC) by 7 to 1..."
Toyota’s New Land Cruiser Is a Smash Hit With Buyers, Despite Some Critics’ Jabs
The all-new Toyota Land Cruiser has smashed all expectations for sales since its debut this past year. It is rare for a vehicle to reveal such a divide between the views of professional critics and shoppers who actually buy the vehicle.
www.torquenews.com
- Thread starter
- #27
Absolutely right. That was my point. Between the launch and when the 6th gen hit lots, it has NOT been bleak. But based on the piling numbers of 1958 and the fact that there are 6th gen 4runner versions cheaper and better equipped, the FUTURE of the LC, IMO, is not great. Let's see those numbers in one year after the 6th gen is available.
Also, I hear that a lot. "The new LC outsold in 1 year, what the previous 200 series sold in the last 10 years or whatever." Of course it did! They are NOT in the same class of vehicle or price. The only thing they have in common is the name, because of a Toyota-marketing-stunt, already beat to death discussed here. The right comparison is how many LX600s were sold in the last year compared to the 200 or How many 5th gen 4runners were sold in 1 year compared to the 250Prado?
You are correct. But we are talking apples and oranges. The 200 was a luxury vehicle at a premium price. The 250 is a not a luxury vehicle. Toyota smartly put a LC badge on it, while the 4Runner was getting long in the tooth, priced it $40K cheaper than the 200, and the rest is history, at least for now. The Sequoia is Toyota's luxury SUV - it's as close to a 300 as you will get under the Toyota name. It's a high-quality rig, and probably a good buy for the money.
I have done plenty of looking around at these mid-sized boxy SUVs. The Land Rover Defender is in a class by itself. A comparably equipped 250 is quite close in price, but it doesn't compare. The only ways it beats the 250 is reputation of the manufacturer and predicted reliability.
- Thread starter
- #29
Well, case in point. I just watched the video below and now I am more than ever sure the 250 Prado 1958 will be cannibalized by the 6th gen. Watch this video and tell me you would not rather buy this 4Runner for $58k full of amenities that are even on par with my 200 series (not that the build quality is the same, but the actual features are there) than a LC1958 stripped and bare bones for the same $58k or even $60k. You must reeeeeally want all time 4wd to choose the 1958. It is mind-bogging.
I traded my LC 200 for a LX 700h and do not miss either. The 700 is better in all respects given the techology upgrade and features like the AHC and battery power assist. Not looking back.
I'm in agreement.
If I have two items to comment on it would be
- I'm adapting to the loss of the tailgate, I hate that they removed it especially when the truck is muddy etc. Think dirty pants each time I lean into the truck. I don't know how all those 4runner and 150 guys dealt with it.
- The cargo area (even with seats removed) is smaller than the 200 and I wish they better packaged the 12V battery, but not a major issue.
Canyonero
Beating up Land Cruisers since 2015
I have to agree with @Oakleyguy. I miss the split tailgate, but I added a hitch step that works great as a tailgate when needed. I don't mind the packaging. It's tight, but I also don't see a lot of wasted space.
I've got over 3k miles on mine now, and it just impresses me more and more every time I drive it. Here's another little video of me using it triple locked yesterday. I've wheeled everything everywhere and this 300 simply does things you would not believe it can do (the video sucks, but you get the idea) -
Also, I've started geeking out on some of the tech specs on the 300. I know most consumers couldn't care less how thick the upper control arms are on a LX700h OT vs. a GX vs. a "Land Cruiser", but I think Toyota smartly assessed their market and knows that the LX700h will be a niche vehicle to begin with and a "IYKYK" vehicle.
This is AIC (via another channel) but has some cool info on the build of the 300 -
I totally get why Toyota called the 250 a Land Cruiser. I've been saying for years, Toyota is not in the car business, they are in the money business. Cars are the means to an end. They can rake in money from the average customer who hears "Land Cruiser" and knows that sounds baller, and they instantly want one. And, it's good. Certainly good enough for most people. But it's not good enough for people who know better. Here's the best video to drive home that point -- Sorry Toyota, This Wasn't It | Land Cruiser 250 Review (vs FJ Cruiser) - https://youtu.be/onpbKja9n7E?si=aXCxP9dw0D24-9ZU
Those who want more can get more with a GX. It's a bit more stout. Gets a V6. Wears a Lexus badge. GX is a good fit for those folks.
Then there's the LX600. Toyota dropped the ball on the 600. Without the off-road goodies, it's pointless. It competes with nothing, and Lexus basically sells them to brand loyalists. Sorry to be harsh, that's just how I see it.
The LX700 OT changes everything just by virtue of being triple locked, adding larger off-road tires and skid plates. See Toyota? That's all you had to do. Rock sliders would have been nice, though, as would a high clearance front end.
I've got over 3k miles on mine now, and it just impresses me more and more every time I drive it. Here's another little video of me using it triple locked yesterday. I've wheeled everything everywhere and this 300 simply does things you would not believe it can do (the video sucks, but you get the idea) -
Also, I've started geeking out on some of the tech specs on the 300. I know most consumers couldn't care less how thick the upper control arms are on a LX700h OT vs. a GX vs. a "Land Cruiser", but I think Toyota smartly assessed their market and knows that the LX700h will be a niche vehicle to begin with and a "IYKYK" vehicle.
This is AIC (via another channel) but has some cool info on the build of the 300 -
I totally get why Toyota called the 250 a Land Cruiser. I've been saying for years, Toyota is not in the car business, they are in the money business. Cars are the means to an end. They can rake in money from the average customer who hears "Land Cruiser" and knows that sounds baller, and they instantly want one. And, it's good. Certainly good enough for most people. But it's not good enough for people who know better. Here's the best video to drive home that point -- Sorry Toyota, This Wasn't It | Land Cruiser 250 Review (vs FJ Cruiser) - https://youtu.be/onpbKja9n7E?si=aXCxP9dw0D24-9ZU
Those who want more can get more with a GX. It's a bit more stout. Gets a V6. Wears a Lexus badge. GX is a good fit for those folks.
Then there's the LX600. Toyota dropped the ball on the 600. Without the off-road goodies, it's pointless. It competes with nothing, and Lexus basically sells them to brand loyalists. Sorry to be harsh, that's just how I see it.
The LX700 OT changes everything just by virtue of being triple locked, adding larger off-road tires and skid plates. See Toyota? That's all you had to do. Rock sliders would have been nice, though, as would a high clearance front end.
- Thread starter
- #33
I don't own a 600 and I get the triple locker halo-thing, but what prevents a 600 owner from modding their car just enough to bring it in line with the 700 and at the same time save about $30grand by avoiding the trade in hosing experience? Apart from the lockers (which are really needed maybe 5% to 10% of times) and the engine, they can always slap decent tires in the OEM 18 wheels, use the AHC (which AFAIK is the same on both models) and add skid plates to their 600s and be 90% as capable as any 700. Assuming here the 600 would be a 23 up, to avoid the whole "enginegate" issue.
Canyonero
Beating up Land Cruisers since 2015
To keep this on topic, the 200 Series is awesome, but does not have lockers. Same with a 600. In fact, I would say if you love your 200, but would like something newer, a 600 is PERFECT for you. It will have everything you love (minus the tailgate) and it's improved in every other way.
The other vehicles at play: "Land Cruiser" Prado 250 in Toyota or Lexus garb, are not heavy duty, such as the 200 and 300 series. They are great in their own right, but they are not heavy duty. I've spent a lot of time wheeling with the HD and non-HD versions, and the HD trucks are on a totally different level. Land Cruiser used to mean Land Cruiser. I posted some videos outlining some of those differences.
If a 600 owner wants to upgrade it closer to an OT, more power to them!
However... and this has been discussed ad nauseam at this point... but CC is not the same as lockers. No offense intended but it's possible you don't really understand the "triple locker halo-thing."
You said lockers are needed 5% to 10% of the time. Can you help me understand that statistic? I've been on 2 technical trails so far with my OT and have needed lockers both times. Once because of deep mud on a steep incline and once because of technical off-camber rock obstacles where CC was just digging holes. How does this impact your data collection?
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That point when your car looked up, was freaking awesome!
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- #36
None taken. I get you are in love with your OT man, but do not let this cloud your common sense. Your use-case is just that: yours. I (and others here) have already agreed the 3 lockers are superior to CC - I even posted a video confirming that. So, rejoice! You do have the halo-car! Congrats!
When I started this thread, the OT was not even here yet and the question was upgrading from the 200 to the 600. Now that the OT has arrived and because of your assertion that the 600 is "pointless" since it does not have the "off-road goodies", I just had a legit question if upgrading to the OT is really worth it if you already have a 600 and can upgrade it to off-road use.
I am sure a lot of 600 owners debate the same.
If you are curious about the 5%, here is a suggestion for a quick read and you can refer to the sources there too.
One of the things is there is way more capable off road vehicles for a fraction of the price. I had a great 700ot allocation, it was one of the first to land on the east coast.
Several things held me back. One is this isn’t an offroad vehicle unless you cut the bumpers back. Then I just might as well use my Jeep or 1st gen Tacoma that is about due for a repaint.
I also have an elocker on my Ford trucks and always wished for a Trutrac or Torsen LSD. I got an Fsport for that reason.
I also have 21-22 gallons of fuel in the 600 which is livable.
I also do not like the space taken by the hybrid battery or the hybrid all around.
Also, I would much rather have a tame mundane looking vehicle that performs well off road. I was planning on painting the black fender flares on my white 700ot allocation for example. I enjoy watching videos of the 300/600 making it through tough trails with mundane Dunlop street tires.
As a note this thing does go off road as I have a forestry operation and construction company. But it works well in town where I live.
Only thing they ****ed us on is the 20 weight motor oil and thin transmission fluid.
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The 700ot is definitely a bad ass rig.
It just kinda is gimmicky as these are supposed to look like a street car and have world class off road performance. Thats why I bought it, not to be in your face. Its an IYKYK vehicle, kinda like my S63 coupe.
The LX600 fsport probably will stay around for quite awhile but my next purchase will be a Raptor R or an electric Escalade.
Canyonero
Beating up Land Cruisers since 2015
Sounds like I did offend... My apologies!
I understand your original post was 200 series ---> 600. That's why I specifically addressed that in my last post, to keep things on target.
I said if you love your 200 and it meets your needs, the 600 is perfect. You still get CC, and apparently, you've never needed lockers, so my advice was to definitely make the move, and you'll continue to have a rig that can do things, just not what the "5 percent" of us do.
To your other question, I just don't think upgrading a 600 (with lockers) makes any sense, given the existence of the 700 OT. My take: I think if you have 600 money, you have 700h OT money. If you have 600 "and then modify it" money, you have 700h OT money.
These things are simply expensive toys; no one needs them. If you're playing in this sandbox, then play in this sandbox. Let's not pretend anyone really cares about value when they're buying a six-figure "pretend you're traversing the Middle East and if you break down you'll surely die" vehicle. We all know these will mostly be doing either A) Minivan duties or B) Basic pickup truck duties.
Back when I got into Land Cruisers 10 years ago, if you wanted THE Land Cruiser, you bought a 200. That was your only (modern) option. The moment you bought the 200, you were the proud owner of a fat Highlander. If you wanted to do any real wheeling, you then had to dump money (a lot of money) into it to make it what it should have been from the factory. Lift, tires, armor, bumpers, lockers, etc. I did all of that to my 200 and wheeled it everywhere.
The fact that today you can go buy a 700 OT, and Toyota has already done the work for you, all to their exacting standards is HUGE. It hasn't happened in nearly 30 years (triple locked).
I don't think this situation has clouded my common sense. I'm an enthusiast. I'm enthusiastic about the product. That's literally the point of this forum.
- Thread starter
- #40
Again...none taken... really. I was just addressing your points.
I think your rig as bad ass as they come today and commend you for putting it to its paces as designed by Toyota and not just use it in the school/strabucks run.100% in agreement. Aftermarket lockers in a 600, no way. Pointless if you have the OT as an option. I am big advocate for buying OEM and ready to go off the lot. My proposition was just adding decent wheel/tire combo, skids, sliders (if possible) and go! Potentially an aftermarket bumper to deal with the chin, but not entirely sure on that since I can't seem to like any AM bumpers.
Yes, in part. I found that the 200HE was a good hail-mary-send-off attempt by Toyota. No-third row, taller springs in the back. You really just need a mild front lift and some sliders to be in decent shape for most trails. The Base 200, yeah. Need a good lift all around.
100%. I just wish upon a star every night for the 300GR in the US. A man can dream.
Fair point.
