1st gear hard to get at a stand, and now 2nd and 4th gear often feel 'mushy' when shifting into them. (1 Viewer)

[sunrk]

I've been noticing it mostly going into 1st and 2nd gears.

When I shift into second, it often feel like the shifting motion is - 'mushy' is the only way I can describe it. This may be connected to another problem I've been having which is getting into 1st gear being very difficult from a dead stop.

My untrained mine suggests a possible clutch issue. the 2nd gear issue makes me think i'm not pushing the clutch pedal enough but I think I am.

Clutch hasn't had any attention since being installed about 6 yrs ago. 4terrain clutch not a factory Toyota setup.

The gearbox had fresh oil last year. Clutch slave cyl is the pink coloured one.

Probably need to get a clutch specialist to check it out.

 

[mudgudgeon]

getting into 1st gear being very difficult from a dead stop

Time for a new clutch. Probably.

You can try checking the clutch master cylinder push rod adjustment at the clutch pedal. There's very limited scope for adjustment there though.

also try flushing and bleeding the clutch fluid. Check the slave cylinder is getting full travel when the clutch pedal is depressed

 

[PIP]

Incomplete disengagement.

Could be in the hydraulics, lost motion in the pedal (bad bushings, linkage), could be in the clutch- rust or dirt accumulating in the pressure plate limiting motion. Could be pilot bearing dragging.

 

[sunrk]

Thx. Lots of suggestions. I'm not a clutch expert by any means. I didn't replace the clutch last time so I've never taken the motor and gbox/transfer apart/out myself. There's a really good clutch joint locally so might get them to check it out.

One Q - since my 80 is 1hz with h150f would there be any point putting in the turbo version of the clutch? ie. bigger flywheel, etc. I'm guessing not. I can't afford to replace the motor with a turbo diesel anytime soon.

Re clutch slaves - the pink one (don't remember pn) is the correct one for my config but I see there are other variants listed in Toyodiy. Not sure what's different about them.

 

[Dave 2000]

Is the clutch vacuum servo working OK? If it's leaking you may not be getting the usual assistance your used to?

Also try getting 1st from a dead stop after pumping the clutch pedal a few times.

Regards

Dave

 

[mudgudgeon]

Is the clutch vacuum servo working OK? If it's leaking you may not be getting the usual assistance your used to?

Also try getting 1st from a dead stop after pumping the clutch pedal a few times.

Regards

Dave

Aussie DX model won't have vacuum assisted clutch.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Thx. Lots of suggestions. I'm not a clutch expert by any means. I didn't replace the clutch last time so I've never taken the motor and gbox/transfer apart/out myself. There's a really good clutch joint locally so might get them to check it out.

One Q - since my 80 is 1hz with h150f would there be any point putting in the turbo version of the clutch? ie. bigger flywheel, etc. I'm guessing not. I can't afford to replace the motor with a turbo diesel anytime soon.

Re clutch slaves - the pink one (don't remember pn) is the correct one for my config but I see there are other variants listed in Toyodiy. Not sure what's different about them.

No point changing to 300mm clutch.

If you need a heavier duty clutch, get a heavy duty aftermarket clutch to suit your vehicle.

The important thing with the slave cylinder is making sure it matches the master cylinder.

I had trouble with new clutch not engaging after I swapped the master cylinder and slave cylinder. Parts I ordered were from different models, and the slave didn't have enough travel.

 

[mudgudgeon]

^^^
I had a new master cylinder I'd bought for a hzj105 that I used. I ended up having to use a slave for a 105.

105 master was not quite a direct bolt on

 

[sunrk]

The master and slave are both correct genuine Toyota parts for the vehicle. The clutch is 4terrain so not genuine. TBH I have never really liked it but until not too long ago it wasn't giving any trouble. Genuine clutch is probably fine though loads of places swear by Exedy's and the 4-terrain (Clutch Indusries) ones. I don't think I'd be able to replace the clutch myself.

 

[sunrk]

It feels like when selecting 2nd or 4th that I'm pushing the selector through a lump of plasticine most of the time to get into those gears, but not always. It feels like it slightly 'catches' also.

Haven't had it flop out of gear at all. I haven't had the box out since the clutch was done in 2016/17, and I keep the clutch hydraulic side well maintained. Slave cylinder is the correct (pink) one 31470-60190.

I haven't been able to get time to look at the selector bush in case that's gone bad, but might be worth looking at.

 

[DivByZero]

When you're in the car with the engine off, just sitting there stationary, clutch pedal to the floor, can you cycle up/down the gears easily, or is it still a challenge? I'm taking from neutral, going 123454321. You may find a gear or two feels "blocked" or tricky to shift into depending on how worn your clutch sleeves are, but once you get the first shift you should find you can cycle like that quickly and quite smoothly. If not, there's something physical with the shift mechanism, which on this box basically means check your bush for the selector. If it does shift smoothly, it probably means your clutch isn't disengaging fully, as mentioned above. If the input shaft is still being partially driven when the engine is running, the synchros won't be able to match the output shaft speed quickly or easily, if at all, which means the blocker ring will usually make your shifts impossible unless you really slam it in there quick.

Since you described difficulty shifting into 1st from a stop with the engine running, my money is on the clutch not fully disengaging.

 

[sunrk]

Thanks I'll have to get a mechanic onto this since it's outside my scope to understand.

Anyway today driving home 2nd gear was particularly difficult to get and at one standing start take off on a flat bit of road I went to second and thought I had it but I got ye olde gear grinding sound when I started to release clutch. I quickly went back to neutral, into 3rd, back to second and got it.
Sometimes I get 2nd and 4th smoothly, other times I don't, and it feels like I'm pushing through some kind of putty to get those gears.
1st is almost impossible to get at a stand and I need to roll a bit for it to go in.

At the moment all I can do is check the gear oil level and probably replace it with fresh vmx-m plus see what's attached to the magnet on the drain plug. For those with manual gearboxes in their 80 should I use any sort of additive (like nulon g70 or penrite shift eze) or is that just masking over something that's wrong?

 

[DivByZero]

At the moment all I can do is check the gear oil level and probably replace it with fresh vmx-m plus see what's attached to the magnet on the drain plug. For those with manual gearboxes in their 80 should I use any sort of additive (like nulon g70 or penrite shift eze) or is that just masking over something that's wrong?

For a gearbox with good synchros, additives like Nulon G70 are not a good idea. They're basically liquid mixes of teflon and/or moly. Manual gearboxes with synchros have quite specific lubrication requirements - you need enough lubrication at a thick enough viscosity to cling to the surfaces and lubricate the bearings and gears, but you also need that lubrication to be quickly and easily displaced off the friction surfaces of the synchro rings and gear cones to allow the rings to "bite" and synchronise the rotation speed of the gear assembly. Those additives will coat and impregnate the rings and the cones, and prevent them forming an effective cone clutch, making synchronisation take longer and shifting more difficult. Redline MT-90 is the right stuff for this IMO, with no additives.

Now that I've said all that, your gearbox doesn't have good synchros it seems, and probably very worn hub sleeves. Go with the additives. They're a bandaid for sure, but when your synchros are already "over the hill", half the time you're crash shifting anyway whether you realise it or not, and the additives will make that process smoother and create less wear.

So in summary, Redline MT-90 for a nice new (or newly rebuilt) gearbox, probably a slightly lighter weight oil (although Castrol VMX-M is good) with additives for a box with poor shifting.

 

[sunrk]

Righto almost 9 am here so everything is nice and cold. I've done a engine-off shift through all the gears with clutch pedal down all the way to the floor.

Was parked in 1st. Came out of 1st ok, then was notchy into all other gears including back again.

I let it roll back a little with the handbrake and did it again. This time 2nd was quite notchy but all went in/out ok though all felt like there was a little 'catching' or notchiness going on.

I haven't pulled the selector yet but might do that today. What am I looking for in terms of 'wear' on the selector bush? I don't have a replacement one currently. I always leave the vehicle parked in 1st gear unless facing steep downhill then I'll park it in reverse.

Just repeated the same test with the engine running. Can't get 1st gear on the first cycle. 2nd 3rd 4th all notchy 5th not too bad. Cycle back and 2/3/4 all notchy (2nd esp) and I could get 1st. Cycled through again and all gettable but notchy.

Because I reverse out of the driveway normally, when I do that and try to get first I almost never can go straight in and have to wiggle via 2nd or 4rd then try to go back to 1.

I can get 1st if I push but I feel that's not really doing the box internals any good. Clutch and brake systems both had full fluid replacements a year ago.

 

[mudgudgeon]

If you can't get 1st with the engine running, your clutch is not disengaging fully

Shifting while stationary, engine off is kinda meaningless.

The bushing in the shifter is a plastic bowl shape that the spherical ball on the shift stick sits in. It should be smooth and look evenly round.

There's another bushing on the very end of the shifter that is a round nylon cup. These can both fail

 

[sunrk]

Ok I'll definitely check those bushes. Going to need an expert opinion on the clutch and gbox situation I think. It's not in my ballpark to figure that out.

 

[sunrk]

Time for a new clutch. Probably.

You can try checking the clutch master cylinder push rod adjustment at the clutch pedal. There's very limited scope for adjustment there though.

also try flushing and bleeding the clutch fluid. Check the slave cylinder is getting full travel when the clutch pedal is depressed

I don't know how to check the slave travel with just myself. It's the correct (pink) slave cyl pn 31470-60160. Could be new clutch time. or maybe try a new slave first since I can change that without huge disassembly and a bleed with fresh fluid from the master.

BTW I noticed that Amayama reports the pink 31470-60160 clutch slave cylinder has been superseded with a black one 31470-60161. They look slightly different but the mounting looks the same. Is there a design flaw with the pink -60160 one?