1HD-T Intake Manifold Modifications (2 Viewers)

[Dougal]

The killer chiller is useful. But isn't large enough for the pull down you'll need. This is why building a custom aftermarket 1 is needed. Plus a very efficient heat exchanger to transfer the refrigerant/coldness into the water charge. The killer chiller is tiny and so is the reserve. So you could say the reserve is the correct size for the ac system. Meaning (like they do) idle the truck and pull it below ambient. Same as putting around town. But heat soak under full throttle isn't to far away. A larger system and reserve prolongs it even further. All these things that work together will withstand the heat soak when run together as 1 system.

It's only on a petrol engine you can chill at idle. Diesels still pull half their displacement every revolution at idle which is enough flow to prevent any meaningful chilling.

When you say your running more boost than me. The turbo at 100 is 7-8psi. Like what has been said, that's what the photo is of. That's the temps at 100k's consistent with a decent size heat exchanger. It almost hold even. So will a refrigeration system pull it down below ambient (absolutely). I'm going to run my turbo to 30psi. With what I've achieved so far. Graeme is more than happy for me to do so, and will built me a new turbo if it blows. Which is very very unlikely. I've already been flying round the streets. The time I'm over 20 psi is mearly for a few seconds at a time. Lets alone minutes at a time. It's fast as and from 0-100 in about 10 seconds. It's not going to over heat. And to further reduce temps when I am loaded. I'll be running it at 15psi with high afr's. this will reduce the air flow through the cooler by half. And higher afr's will temps allround.

I'm not really sure where you're going with this.
At 100km/h cruise and 7-8psi boost you don't need any intercooling. Even at 15psi intercooling is good to have, but not absolutely necessary.
I'm running 24psi max boost and still haven't fitted an intercooler.

If you plan to run at 15psi with high Air/Fuel ratios, then your power/torque figures won't be anything special at all. The difference between an average and awesome intercooler at 15psi is eclipsed by simply adding 3psi boost.

Dougal - I am getting my intake temps close to my water temps. When the water temp rises, so does the intake. So far though without any heat soak it always been within 10 degrees of the water.

So you need to check either water flow or your heat-shedding radiator out front to make improvements.

 

[TheBigBoy]

1. Wrong.

2. Your right it isn't nessesary. But a total bonus having the Chilled reserve for when you do flat foot it.

3. The high afr's at 15psi will decrease with load. The power figures when not loaded with weight or towing doesn't change as I will be running higher boost levels. The turbo spools so fast it will skip through the 15psi section with easy and you will hardly even feel it. The whole idea of inter cooling is to increase air mass so you can increase fuel. I just won't increase it as much.

There lots of real world WTA cooler builds out there. Look up matts laminova build on a few patrols. I can't remember for sure. But his ran 82' intake and his WTA cooler dropped it by 50' with 32' ambient. He did not run a reserve only a large radiator with thermal fans.

Pre and post dyno power from just the WTA was something like 14kw more and 200nm more from idle across the board.

I don't agree with you about simply adding more boost. By intercooling you can get MORE power and torque for the same temps than adding 3psi.

 

[gerg]

Your dyno figures are misleading as it only shows your transient power. Constant power would be less as your system would eventually soak and your intake temps would rise. And last time I checked ATA inter-cooling put no draw onto the engine unlike your AC gadget.

 

[wrongway around]

yes i hear you on the low boost at 100 on flat roads,unlike your roads ,i wish we had all flat roads hear ,but where i live you drive 1 block and your elavation changes 10-20 feet ,im only a couple miles from the ocean and at 700 plus feet .sustained 30 psi should be no problem with your one off test turbo designed for the larger manifold ,the turbo numbers dont change that much from the smaller intake.why would you go through all the intercooler head ackes for, if your running high boost anyway ? GBENTINK when do you think a gturbo will be available for the larger manifold mod be,and will it have to be based on the volume of BIGBOYS ,or can you order as per intake volume. and will it be available for my log style front entry manifold .

 

[Dougal]

1. Wrong.

2. Your right it isn't nessesary. But a total bonus having the Chilled reserve for when you do flat foot it.

3. The high afr's at 15psi will decrease with load. The power figures when not loaded with weight or towing doesn't change as I will be running higher boost levels. The turbo spools so fast it will skip through the 15psi section with easy and you will hardly even feel it. The whole idea of inter cooling is to increase air mass so you can increase fuel. I just won't increase it as much.

There lots of real world WTA cooler builds out there. Look up matts laminova build on a few patrols. I can't remember for sure. But his ran 82' intake and his WTA cooler dropped it by 50' with 32' ambient. He did not run a reserve only a large radiator with thermal fans.

Pre and post dyno power from just the WTA was something like 14kw more and 200nm more from idle across the board.

I don't agree with you about simply adding more boost. By intercooling you can get MORE power and torque for the same temps than adding 3psi.

Are you disputing that a diesel engine pulls half it's displacement every revolution when idling?
A 4.2L diesel pulls ~1700 litres per minute at idle. More than enough to stop you chilling an intercooler below ambient unless you can either bypass it or have massive cooling capacity.

The heat-soak effect of a large aluminium front mount does all of that without the horrendous downsides.

I'm quite aware of what can and cannot be done with intercooling. Your plans I'm strugging to understand, but appear to be somewhere between impractical and unworkable.

You can't add 200Nm of torque without increasing air density and fuelling by the same proportion as your torque increase.
On a 400Nm diesel (for example) that would be a ~50% increase, which is simply not possible.
On a 800Nm diesel that would be ~25% increase, which is only possible if you were going from no intercooling to excellent intercooling.

Put simply, the figures don't add up. In my experience, when the figures don't add up, they've usually been made up by someone selling something.

 

[wrongway around]

someone selling something , PRICELESS ? im glad i am not the only one who saw that. just how much is this hp(horse powerd) wta system going to cost?

 

[TheBigBoy]

Like I said. Go look up the build. There's his figures and I'm only going from memory. I have trouble understanding you aswell. We are talking about plenum size increase. And you do know a front mount doesn't start working until 60kph. So which is it, run it rich before this? Or run to correct afr's before this and lose out on power uptop? You would have to run it rich down low to overcome the lag. You understand the numbers. But the prac disagrees with you.

 

[TheBigBoy]

someone selling something , PRICELESS ? im glad i am not the only one who saw that. just how much is this hp(horse powerd) wta system going to cost?

Ha ha, what ever. I'm not selling anything. Just building the best I can for my application.

 

[TheBigBoy]

Instead of asking a million questions and getting a million different answers. Why don't you try these mods for yourself and share results?

 

[gerg]

And you do know a front mount doesn't start working until 60kph.

That is true of my top mount, because it doesn't have a gigantic rad fan sucking air through it constantly. It is one of the disadvantages of a top mount, but there are some really powerful small fans available from spall that are designed specifically for drawing through thick cores... pricey though.
http://www.a1electric.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AEOS&Product_Code=30103202HO
But as I said a front mount has a much more capable mechanical fan that does this all day, every day for the radiator.

 

[gerg]

Why don't you try these mods for yourself and share results?

Holy cow man. Ever seen a Jackass movie? I don't need to ride down a hill in a shopping cart to know its a bad Idea. Good luck on your ride.

 

[TheBigBoy]

It's true of the front mounts aswell. The efficency just isn't there until 60kph when they really start working. Again though it all comes back to boost and afr's.

 

[TheBigBoy]

Holy cow man. Ever seen a Jackass movie? I don't need to ride down a hill in a shopping cart to know its a bad Idea. Good luck on your ride.

Actually that wasn't directed at you.

 

[TheBigBoy]

It's hard when all the experts come out of the woodwork telling me the temp numbers right in front of me aren't correct. I haven't gone out and just slapped this together. Been planning for a year. And I would be the first to say if it doesn't work, so don't bother. And I don't have the end results yet. But from what I've seen so far, it definitely seems achievable so I'm going for it. It could cost a fortune and months to finish. But 1 thing I'm really looking forward to is seeing what the DT is capable of with the best bits. Then it's just a question of how far under the bar I will fall.

 

[Dougal]

It's true of the front mounts aswell. The efficency just isn't there until 60kph when they really start working. Again though it all comes back to boost and afr's.

From standstill a front mount is a heat-sink. It sucks heat from the intake stream until it's either got enough airflow over it to work as intended or demand backs off.

Now if I'm accelerating, I'm at 60km/h in a few seconds and that isn't a problem.
If I'm offroad, it's only a burst of torque I need and as a big heat sink that pulls it down fine.
If it's hot, then my dual electric fans will be on with the AC and pulling and through the front mount already.

So I'm not seeing this big problem you're trying to solve. I can't use huge amounts of power constantly at low speed without the fans running.
I just can't get into a situation where I need the system you're intending to build.

 

[Dougal]

You'd better post a link to this one you keep mentioning. Google just gives me noise.

 

[TheBigBoy]

From standstill a front mount is a heat-sink. It sucks heat from the intake stream until it's either got enough airflow over it to work as intended or demand backs off.

Now if I'm accelerating, I'm at 60km/h in a few seconds and that isn't a problem.
If I'm offroad, it's only a burst of torque I need and as a big heat sink that pulls it down fine.
If it's hot, then my dual electric fans will be on with the AC and pulling and through the front mount already.

So I'm not seeing this big problem you're trying to solve. I can't use huge amounts of power constantly at low speed without the fans running.
I just can't get into a situation where I need the system you're intending to build.

That's not the problem, I was referring to running a large plenum. There is no argument running a large plenum with high boost definitely increases power. But with a front mount to get past the lag you will have to increase fuel. In turn increasing heat. And back to the 3psi vs intercooling. Just been told 3psi is better, but only marginally.

 

[gbentink]

yes i hear you on the low boost at 100 on flat roads,unlike your roads ,i wish we had all flat roads hear ,but where i live you drive 1 block and your elavation changes 10-20 feet ,im only a couple miles from the ocean and at 700 plus feet .sustained 30 psi should be no problem with your one off test turbo designed for the larger manifold ,the turbo numbers dont change that much from the smaller intake.why would you go through all the intercooler head ackes for, if your running high boost anyway ? GBENTINK when do you think a gturbo will be available for the larger manifold mod be,and will it have to be based on the volume of BIGBOYS ,or can you order as per intake volume. and will it be available for my log style front entry manifold .

Hi. Well, a better intercooler at a given boost equals more power if you are maintaining AFR's at the same time.

I saw you asked in an earlier post about 200hp at wheels 1HDT. Thats not hard - I'll repost one with 192hp (at wheels, 22psi) that gets 21psi at 1600 below. Ive been getting around 200hp at wheels on 1HDT for quite a while on std manifolds and an eBay front mount, so I have no doubt at all that with good intercooling, good manifold etc and more boost and fuel will add a heap to that potentially. ALso, the spec is very similar to what "BigBoy" has on his truck.

My gut is ~ 170kW at wheels is the limit of the factory inj/inj pump combo, I would love to see more safely. I can upgrade the inj to about 190-200 but no need to yet.

Also, I dont need to redesign a turbo for a better intake manifold. If you have a better intake manifold I will take that into consideration for your build along with your other goals. In a similar way to me selecting a different spec for same boost between HD-FT and 1HD-T since the FT head flows better up top.

Also, if I post a dyno graph, its at the wheels power unless you see 4 lines per run - in which case the bottom line is drivetarin loss (measured, not inferred) and two power plots (wheels/engine) and a corrected torque plot. The bottom one is torque uncorrected and power at wheels uncorrected. So, after drivetrain losses its still getting the equivalent of ~ 400ftlbs at 1600-1800rpm, add probably 10-20% for torque at engine. The dips are clutch issues.

 

[TheBigBoy]

My computers down. I'm on my phone. You'll have to look it up.

"How does post turbo temps of 82C with post intercooler temps of 32C and a flat line of 5C temp rise above ambient sound? That's what we're getting on Matt's one a 50 degrees C temp drop at 8-9 psi."

 

[TheBigBoy]

I'm putting the standard manifold back on while I modify the new 1. So I can tell you the exact spool and temp drop differences between manifolds. Putty I didn't take afr measurements.