Yes, because the example is close to heat soak. The WTA 90% rating I'm referring to means 30' water temp = 33' intake temps. It's all about keeping the water cool. Other factors are radiator cap pressures etc. which I'm addressing. People are too quick to right off idea's without ever testing it completely themselves. Then pass on bad info. The results I've achieved so far are GREAT. Very promising and exciting. Only Graeme and a few other great minds involved are kept upto date. The end for now.
1HD-T Intake Manifold Modifications
- Thread starter ForealBoreal
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Yes, because the example is close to heat soak. The WTA 90% rating I'm referring to means 30' water temp = 33' intake temps. It's all about keeping the water cool. Other factors are radiator cap pressures etc. which I'm addressing. People are too quick to right off idea's without ever testing it completely themselves. Then pass on bad info. The results I've achieved so far are GREAT. Very promising and exciting. Only Graeme and a few other great minds involved are kept upto date. The end for now.
By all means post up lots of pictures of your giant A/C build. It will be extremely interesting. You know that your A/C still has to shed its heat into the air, and you will have a net loss in power. This has to be one of the craziest things I have heard lately, but good on ya for following your dreams.
Keep in mind that ~17kw at 2000rpm, doubles to ~34kw at 4000rpm.
Using the AC to cool can work on petrol engines where you have a long time to store up the coldness and only require a few second squirt of power.
For diesels that are on boost almost 100% of the time, it becomes a huge parastic loss.
I'm wondering if your leading AC guy knows the temperatures and flows involved?
30 degree water temp = 33 intake charge temp? erm that is a little optimistic of an efficiency rating for your exchanger isnt it? So if your boosting 150 degree intake charge you will cool it to 33 degrees? Well congrats cus that is a 97% efficient ATW core, and aside from your super air conditioner idea, how on earth will you keep your coolant that cool for any longer than a minute under full boost?
I have a feeling you are confusing comparing water with water/antifreeze having its carrying capacity reduced to 90%. That inhibits heat exchange by the way and will lower your systems efficiency.
What formulas are you using because it seems pretty fanciful.
I have a feeling you are confusing comparing water with water/antifreeze having its carrying capacity reduced to 90%. That inhibits heat exchange by the way and will lower your systems efficiency.
What formulas are you using because it seems pretty fanciful.
You are confusing the heat exchanger. I'm talking about the intercooler. The heat exchanger is irrelevant at this point in time. As its not the source of cooling ill be using.
And like I've already said. A 10 litre flow rate with a 10 litre reserve when held flat for 1 minute won't increase any temps at all, as the water has only just made 1 full circle.
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Indeed he does. I will be running a reserve amount of water to start with. Prolongs heat soak, flow and temp pull down now need to be calculated but can't be until I have numbers and results. Boost pressure/temp increases at 100 are stuff all. The plenum mod alot has raised afr's and dropped temps. I don't have to tune for max power. I will though to see the dyno results. After that, happy to run higher afr's and drop boost if required. I am yet to test the new turbo and working cooler under full load. When I'm not towing or carrying weight. You would be lucky to hold it flat for 1 minute. Even 30 seconds is plenty for the amount of power. It's not a race truck at lemans 24 hour.
This makes sense to me now. Indeed your ATW will work for a shot bursts. That is indeed what is is used for in race applications. After that however, its gonna become a pie warmer.
- Thread starter
- #128
air to air is better for longer runs apparently....
There is a good write up on the bell intercooler website.
There is a good write up on the bell intercooler website.
Ha ha, you say it's a pie warmer. But even with 60% heat soak its running cooler temps than the front mount. So lets call that an oven. If I was trying to cool air vs air to the temps I want with an ac system (that's impossible). Or at least very very hard. Water takes 5 times the time to heat up. And also 5 times the time to cool. The volume of water gives a even greater time period. Slowing the flow down heats the water at pass 1 quicker. But also takes longer until all the reserve has passed once. So it's really the volume that counts. So each pass through the cooler @ 150' (flat throttle) is impeading 30' into the water and each pass an knocking nearly all the heat out of the intake take charge. So a few passes (3 minutes) and its equal to an ata (with no cooling at all). Add a heat exchanger with a large surface area. That further prolongs the heat up. The more its heat up the better it works. But running an ac system with a very efficient specially designed exchanger AND cooling the reserve charge of water. That will give like 10 minutes at full throttle and then temps will slowly start to rise. Another factor is when towing/bush/beach work. I will be using my electronic boost controller to drop the boost back to stock (or what ever the actuator is set at). And tuning in high afr's at this level into the aneroid pin. It all adds up.... And I doubt I will ever experience heat soak. My temps will always be below or just above ambient which is the best you can ever hope for. The ac doesn't have to control all of the heat. It just has to control more than the heat at 7psi (highway driving). Which it will do easily. Which means it will be actually cooling the water to below amb while highway driving.
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i am trying to post some pics on wrongway around intake manifold at present.hopefully it turns out good.
we have tried it out about a year pass & had no trouble with it all.this is the second one, i build for 1 hdt on CN road.enjoy.
we have tried it out about a year pass & had no trouble with it all.this is the second one, i build for 1 hdt on CN road.enjoy.
So did you adapt a larger plenum onto the existing manifold? Do you know what the egts dropped after install, or did you do alot of mods at the same time? Nice work.
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we did a lot of works & mods at the same time ,so hard to tell how much egt drop just by intake manifold alone.
Where on earth does the "90% rating" come from - the manufacturer? I'm quite sure I'm using the same intercooler as you (Frozenboost Type 10) and my real world testing put it at 75% efficient (effective, sorry Dougal). When combined with a large radiator (FB Type 117) that also tested to be 75% I ended up with an overall system effectiveness of ~56%. I figure that by adding a second radiator in series I can get the system up to about 70%.
For reference, the "off-the-shelf" Denco setup using a 4x10 barrel also measured 75% for the radiator but only 56% for the barrel, giving an overall system effectiveness of 42%.
All my testing is done in real world driving situations, though. We have a lot of mountain highways here and it is very common to spend several minutes at full boost and max EGT. Then you get a couple of minutes with low EGTs (~900-1000F) still close to or at full boost, then back to max EGT again for several minutes. Front mount air-air wouldn't suffer as badly from increasing water temperatures.
Personally, I wanted (still do) to push the water-air thing as far as I reasonably can because I like the city and offroad performance. I'm not done yet. I want to see how close I can get to the theoretical effectiveness of adding the second radiator and my goal is to get the whole system over 70%.
I don't view the icebox concept as a worthwhile investment of time since my truck isn't designed for 1/4 miles or the dyno. Regardless, I still have a hard time anticipating anyone having the ability to remove more than 80% of the heat relative to the water temperature. I'm still excited to see someone do it in a relatively simple way so please keep at it and share your results.
Since this thread is a bit all over the place, I'll throw this out.....
My intercooler uses 3" in/out. I think the CT-26 compressor outlet is 2-1/4 or 2-1/2". Right now I'm just using a silicone reducer to make the jump immediately before the air enters the IC.
How should this be improved?
My intercooler uses 3" in/out. I think the CT-26 compressor outlet is 2-1/4 or 2-1/2". Right now I'm just using a silicone reducer to make the jump immediately before the air enters the IC.
How should this be improved?
- Thread starter
- #135
I thought the ct26 outlet is 2".
If you could get 3" going from your turbo all the way to your intake manifold it would probably be better?
Are you planning on doing an intake manifold mod?
Well, I need to rework my air flow from the turbo to the manifold through the IC. The IC is big and was a bit of a pain to fit so I settled for something sub-optimal for the moment. So far "the moment" has been about 9 months...
In the process I might end up doing something with the plenum. It doesn't make much sense to go from a nice 48 square inches of IC core down to a 3" diameter circle then all the way back out to the size of the plenum.
I really like the way TheBigBoy has done his and it's one of the ideas I've had in my head for a while now. My intercooler appears to be the same as his. I just need to learn to either use this TIG welder we've had sitting around here for the last 6 years...or perhaps better yet the spool gun for our MIG.
In the process I might end up doing something with the plenum. It doesn't make much sense to go from a nice 48 square inches of IC core down to a 3" diameter circle then all the way back out to the size of the plenum.
I really like the way TheBigBoy has done his and it's one of the ideas I've had in my head for a while now. My intercooler appears to be the same as his. I just need to learn to either use this TIG welder we've had sitting around here for the last 6 years...or perhaps better yet the spool gun for our MIG.
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Do you have all the temp gauges? Pre intercooler, post intercooler, water temp just before and after intercooler? If so what are they? I'm still not talking about the heat exchanger. Just the cooler itself.
That is 97.5% effecient. Can you take a shot after boosting it like that for 15 minutes? That will tell you am more realistic effeciency for you whole system. That might be hard for you if you dont live around alot of mountains. You could pull a trailer around or something. Here in BC you can push those numbers up mountainpasses for very long periods of time. Makes it easier for testing as you can really stress the system to see what its capable of. Nice guage. Did you calibrate it before installing it?
Yes, but like I've said for the millionth time. I'm only taking about the intercoolers efficency atm. Not the whole system. When I'm finished! I will be able to run load for 15 minutes and my temps SHOULD be 10' - 45' water temps max. That's still 30' lower intake temps that a front mount. You want me to just hook it up as a normal crappy off the shelf wta kit and run it through hills for 15min under load. That is a floored system. This is all in testing stage. But test have proven it can be done. Don't put the cart before the horse.
